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Wiring RV plug


dennisvr

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This is for all you electricians out there.  I'm installing a RV plug, but first I'm installing a sub panel.  I get confused with "bonding or not bonding" the neutral and the ground.  I have attached a picture of the main panel and it shows the neutral and the ground connected to the terminal bar and the terminal bar screwed to the box.
The picture of the sub panel it shows the neutral/ground terminal bar insulated from the box.  So I assume I attach the neutral and ground wires to the bar and leave it isolated from the box.  Is this correct?
If I remember correctly in other sub panels I've seen there were two terminal bars, one for the neutrals which was insulated from the box and another one for the grounds connected to the box. 
Hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.  Wanting to get this thing wired correctly.  
Thanks
Dennis

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3 hours ago, dennisvr said:

Hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.   

Hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.   

Perfectly... but can you do a picture of the whole box and identify your feed line? Looks like something else might be going on there, but for now... you want your ground bonded to the box and your neutral floating... no neutral to ground bonding.

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Ideally the Neutral and Ground should be separate until as close to the source as reasonable,  For most situations, the main panel in the house is the closest point to the power station  and the Neutral and Ground are tired together.

All panels after that should have the Neutral and Ground separate.

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21 minutes ago, Mark and Dale Bruss said:

Ideally the Neutral and Ground should be separate until as close to the source as reasonable,  For most situations, the main panel in the house is the closest point to the power station  and the Neutral and Ground are tired together.

All panels after that should have the Neutral and Ground separate.

What Mark said.  The main panel will be bonded.  Any sub panels off the main panel should have separate neutral and ground bars.

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This electrician agrees with the above answers, but wants to know more about the panels in the photos. An 8 cct main? 

I have been wrong before, I'll probably be wrong again. 

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7 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

What Mark said.  The main panel will be bonded.  Any sub panels off the main panel should have separate neutral and ground bars.

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Dennis, good question. Although I'm longggggggggg retired as an electrical power distribution design engineer and rusty on the latest NEC I think I can still help you.

1) Typically in an RV the main distribution panel HAS SEPARATE INSULATED AND ISOLATED FROM EACH OTHER NEUTRAL AND EQUIPMENT GROUND BUSSES.    IE  There is         NO            Neutral to Ground Bond in the RV's Main AC distribution panel. The case/frame ISSSSSSSSS bonded to the Equipment Ground Buss,  BUT the Neutral Buss is insulated and isolated off case and off the Ground Buss.

2) That's UNLIKE a typical homes main electrical service entrance distribution panel WHICH HAS THE NEUTRAL BUSS BONDED TO THE EQUIPMENT GROUND BUSS often via a tie bar across the two or on some panels there's ONLY ONE common Buss to which Neutrals and Grounds are all attached.  

3) In a home ORRRRRRRR the RV, any "SUB PANELS" fed from the Main panel ALSO  HAVE SEPARATE INSULATED AND ISOLATED  NEUTRAL AND GROUND BUSSES. If a 120/240 single phase three wire panel is subbed off the main, you run FOUR WIRES to the sub. Two Hots, Neutral and Equipment Ground.

 

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO in the RV BOTH the Main and any Subs fed from the Main need separate insulated and isolated (from each other) Neutral and Equipment Ground Busses with the case/frame bonded to the Ground Buss

 

If you install a 50 amp 120/240 plug and receptacle you need FOUR wires. Two Hots, Neutral, Ground. If 120 volt 30 amp, Three wires, Hot, Neutral Ground. Then inside the main panel Hots to Hots L1 & L2,,,,,,,,,,White/Neutral to panels isolated Neutral Buss,,,,,,,,,,Bare/Green Ground to panels Equipment Ground Buss  PIECE OF CAKE

NOTE 1 this is based on the theory of Single Point Grounding and assumes AS TYPICAL the Neutral Ground Bond is inside the RV parks power pedestal or distribution system. IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF SO DO NOTTTTTTTTT DO IT AGAIN IN ANY RV PANELS !!!!!!

NOTE 2 Earth Grounding of the Neutral IS NOT the same as Neutral Ground Bonding 

Disclaimer: THERE ARE GOOD SOUND AND WELL REASONED THEORIES FOR ALL THIS butttttttttttt I'm NOT going to confuse the issue or open a can of worms concerning Neutral Ground Bonding and Single Point Grounding and Earth Grounding the Neutral  or trying to explain on here what can takes volumes to explain, but I will still try my best to help and explain things if it doesn't overwhelm the board or my oldddddddddddddddd brain  lol 

John T Longggggggg retired and rusty electrical engineer and NEC may have changed ??? SO NO WARRANTY 

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Thanks all for the replies.
I thought that was the way it should be done, but was in doubt.  So when in doubt ask the experts here.
So I"m needing to buy a insulated terminal bar and install it in the sub panel and attach my neutrals to it.
Thanks again 

"It is better to have more truck than you need than to need more truck than you have"

2001 Volvo 660, Cummins 400 ISX, Eaton 3 Peddle Auto Shift    
2014 Fuzion 40' Toyhauler
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1 hour ago, Darryl&Rita said:

This electrician agrees with the above answers, but wants to know more about the panels in the photos. An 8 cct main? 

Darryl I will try to explain the pics and how I got here.  
I bought a piece of property with no power to it.  The power co installed a power pole (after 6 months from the time I applied) and they had me buy and install a service pole.  The service pole came fully assembled, "pole, main 200 amp panel and mast".  The first picture is of the inside of the main box.  It also came with a 20 amp breaker wired to a GFCI receptacle attached to the side.  I installed the 50 amp breaker and ran the wires to a 50 amp receptacle for my RV.  But they only have 4 terminals in the main box and I have to add circuits for water well, sewer (engineered septic system with pump) ground is mostly rock.  So that is why I want to add a sub panel and move my 50 amp breaker that feeds my RV to it.

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Now it makes more sense. I missed the big "200A", and "GE" symbol on the top breaker. That's almost a shame to have to buy the equipment from the power company, when a 200a , 36 or 48 cct panel would have made more sense.

I have been wrong before, I'll probably be wrong again. 

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25 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

Now it makes more sense. I missed the big "200A", and "GE" symbol on the top breaker. That's almost a shame to have to buy the equipment from the power company, when a 200a , 36 or 48 cct panel would have made more sense.

Forgot to mention that I don't have the house built yet.  So this way I can have power now, then this main panel will supply power to sub panels in the house.
I didn't buy the service pole from the power co.  They told me where to buy it locally "for $ 1100.00" .  
The power co got enough of my money.  They charged me $18,000 to install a 40' pole and pull wire from a pole 280' away that was on my property.  Did I mention I live in California, everything here is expensive.  

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2 hours ago, dennisvr said:

Thanks all for the replies.
I thought that was the way it should be done, but was in doubt.  So when in doubt ask the experts here.
So I"m needing to buy a insulated terminal bar and install it in the sub panel and attach my neutrals to it.
Thanks again 

You got it Dennis. Those bars and insulated off the case/frame mounting assemblies are available and YES, that's where the Neutrals (aka a Grounded CONDUCTOR) attach in a Sub Panel for very important safety reasons. The case/frame still bonds to the Equipment Ground Buss.

John T

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1 hour ago, oldjohnt said:

You got it Dennis. Those bars and insulated off the case/frame mounting assemblies are available and YES, that's where the Neutrals (aka a Grounded CONDUCTOR) attach in a Sub Panel for very important safety reasons. The case/frame still bonds to the Equipment Ground Buss.

John T

Umm, John? You mean "Bonded" conductor?

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28 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

Umm, John? You mean "Bonded" conductor?

Darryl & Rita, THANKS for asking, I appreciate it and it shows people actually pay attention on here YAYYYYYYYYYYY Good catch and good comment !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Umm NOOOOOOOOOOO I stand by what I posted. The Neutral is indeed actually a GROUNDED CONDUCTOR, while the Hot is an UN-GROUNDED CONDUCTOR.

That's NOT typical laymen's terminology mind you and some non electricians and some non electrical engineers wouldn't understand it or use it, so let me try my best explain.  Heck, for that matter, even some electricians may not understand or use it grrrrrrrrrrrrrr lol

1) The Neutral is a "Grounded Conductor". As a matter of fact, out on the HV Primary as well as the Low Voltage Secondary it is GROUNDED and its is a CONDUCTOR hmmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe why it's referred to in the trade as a "Grounded Conductor".

  (A)  On the HV Primary the Neutral may be often GROUNDED at every so many poles by a No 4 soft bare copper wire ran down to a ground rod or other such methods.

   (B)  On the LV Secondary its GROUNDED    first   right at the pole mounted aerial transformer, then its again also GROUNDED by connection to a "Grounding Electrode Conductor"  that connects to a proper "Grounding Electrode" (such as building structural steel,  buried ground grids, or "made electrodes" like a cooper rod driven into mother earth) at the service entrance. Such may be done at  1) The drip loop area of the aerial drop where the Utility Neutral connects to the customers Neutral   2) Inside the Meter Base  3) In the main distribution panel

          THE NEUTRAL IS "EARTH GROUNDED" AND THE NEUTRAL BUSS AND EQUIPMENT GROUND BUSSES ARE "BONDED"

                 EARTH GROUNDING OF THE NEUTRAL IS NOTTTTTTTTTTTTT THE SAME AS NEUTRAL GROUND BONDING

 2) Typically the Neutral Buss is Bonded to the Equipment Ground Buss at the main service entry panel (like those cross tie bars you see in a main panel) or it may be Bonded at other proper locations HOWEVER THERE IS ONLY ONE NEUTRAL GROUND BOND that's why the sub panel has its Neutral and Ground Busses separate and insulated and isolated Again, see the difference in that and Earth Grounding of the Neutral as in A & B above.

 Earth Grounding the Neutral is to reduce lightning and surge harm and to keep the grid at a common low voltage reference IE Mother Earth. Neutral Ground BONDING is so the Equipment Grounding conductor (which connects to the Equipment Ground Buss) can provide a dedicated normal NON current carrying low resistance fault current return path.

  SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO The Neutral and Ground are indeed Bonded at one point. The Neutral isssssssss a Conductor and it isssssssssss Grounded IE in electrical terminology its a "Grounded Conductor" WHICH happens to be  Bonded to the Equipment Ground Buss in the main service entry distribution panel or other approved locations BUT ONLY ONCE

NOTE in years of power distribution engineering practice I heard manyyyyyyy electricians and manyyyyyyyyyyyy electrical contractors and many electrical engineers refer to the Neutral consistently as THE GROUNDED CONDUCTOR while I likewise heard others just call it the Neutral.

I'm sure in different parts of the Country and subject to where the engineer or electrician may be trained and experienced people may call things different. That's why some call the Neutral the Neutral and others refer to its as the Grounded Conductor IVE HEARD BOTH TERMS USED but Neutral is the more common   REGARDLESS THE NEUTRAL ISSSSSSSS A GROUNDED CONDUCTOR

I sure hope this helps, post back any questions but I fear we may bore others lol It may be somewhat merely semantics and different folks and different geographical areas may call things different, I practiced mostly in the Midwest and heard electricians and engineers call it BOTH ways.  FWIW when I attended several NEC Training Seminars, many taught by expert professionals on the NEC board, many of them used the term GROUNDED CONDUCTOR for the Neutral !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh Well different strokes and either works for me

Many Thanks Darryl & Rita, let me know if you get this ?????????????

John T Longgggggggggg retired EE and NEC rusty but believe the above still rings true ??? No Warranty however

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