Scrap Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 On 1/2/2018 at 11:05 AM, J-T said: When I looked at a 48V system the issues where. - Bigfoot hydraulics. - Using 115V Bigfoot pumps with a 12V control system. At 115AC the pumps draw 4-6amps each. - Running two 12V motors tandem draws 140amps. For this I was gong to use a 2-6V battery bank. To supply enough power to keep the pumps running for 4-5 min I figured on 3 (2+1spare) DC-DC converters. - To charge a 48V bank with a MPPT controller the input voltage needs to be +80V. Running 2 panels that I have in Series =140V. This meant that 250V controllers are needed. - 12V to 48V vehicle charging - 120VAC to 48V charging with 120VAC to 12V back up. - Monitoring the 48V or the 12V as well The part I am talking about is just the 12V part, and trying to solve the specs J-T has here without plugging into a wall. You have the pumps above and you have a generator that needs to be started which are both high draws and short duration. Then add to it Jack doesn't want a battery for it because, well, it already is all running off a bigger battery. They make 48-12 converters that do this but they are real low amperage so you parallel them up. Automotive solves this problem next year with road hardened converters that are big enough to do it all with a single unit. You just can't buy them yet. They are bi-stable as well so they cover the 12V to 48V vehicle charging requirement above too (whether they cover a NMC would have to be figured out). They still package with a single 12v battery (the Wandler in my pic above) but I suspect that after a few years of tuning that will go away. I've seen some LiPO ones already tooled up. So I suspect for the next year you'll need some kind of buffer for the short duration large loads. Whether it be a bunch of batteries or you add an Ultracap that can charge itself off a single small DC-DC converter. Maybe even the current ESM with the charger already built in. You lose some capacity but it is all packaged up in a grp 31 box. Major advantage of the ultracap is that you can use it up and be all ready to go again in 10-15 minutes off just a 25A DC-DC converter. You'll be charging for a couple hours with a battery setup. Major drawback is that if you are off on the math then you gotta go take lunch when your trailer stops leveling halfway through! I don't think AC units are part of this, yet. I'm sure a Volt battery or two could cover it but I suspect you'll need to hook up the cooling part of them, which is another whole system to figure out. The 48 volt stuff is worth investing the time in to figure something out for the future. You really don't want to go to the high voltage hybrid parts and deal with the HVIL loop and all the CAN and all of that complex stuff that comes with. 48V keeps you under that and it won't be long till every car you buy has that system on it so there will be parts galore to make systems out of. An RV mfgr isn't going to spend the $2M to tool up special converters right off the start, but let the cars do it and buy them as service parts later. Now, whether your truck will have 48V still remains to be seen. Auto-Neutral with your Ultrashift is one thing, but 80K of engine off coast like the cars are gonna do is a whole other ballgame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted January 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Understand Steve Dixion is running two mini splits with one complete Chevy Volt battery. Has 3 4400 Magnum. Has not reported any cooling problems with battery or climate that I am aware of. As long as I am working I will have to have ac. All the big money in the southern Gulf. 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve from SoCal Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 I have a 48 volt phantom system in my truck right now. With 4 starting batteries, I am looking at adding a 48 volt alternator to the truck. This will be a hillbilly battery apu. Using a dedicated inverter for my fridge, another for microwave, HVAC and, power receptacles. I was considering using a Volt battery bank in my Teton but, I think I am going to skip right to the 48' project trailer. In RV systems 12 volt DC is a default standard. For folks that are looking to do high power battery banks that may be a blind hole to go down. Glenn's example of the mini split is eye opening, at 6 amps on 120 volts that is a mere 720 watts. Using a battery bank to provide RV wide AC service is where I plan to go. My own idea is to use the Volt charger logic and garage power supply, the inverters would only power the various circuits. The garage charger is 240 volt 30 or 50 amp, using an RV plug on a 50 amp pedestal would give you full charging capacity. With a deep enough reserve even a 30 amp service would work with the time demand constant of an RV. Having a generator then becomes an option. Even a small portable capable of providing 240 service would work albeit slowly Think of your battery bank as a reservoir, your inverters as power generators, even at low flow over time the water rises, the flow of water is constant, demand changes over time. Even a 30 amp 120 shore power plug supplies 1800 continuous watts, with just a few KW of reserve you can live unimpeded. Add some solar and you could possibly be totally independent. One thing I want to incorporate is a UPS plug so the battery bank can serve as a back up power source to a home or shop. Steve 2005 Peterbilt 387-112 Baby Cat 9 speed U-shift 1996/2016 remod Teton Royal Atlanta 1996 Kentucky 48 single drop stacker garage project Pulls like a train, sounds like a plane....faster than a Cheetah sniffin cocaine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALLOY Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Thanks Scrap...confirmed my thoughts... for the time being I gone 12V with the structure for a future 48V upgrade. For 120V I'm building (with my fingers crossed) a generator enclosure that will (may) drop the Db down to a point it is barely noticeable. 2011 Cameo 34SB3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALLOY Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 25 minutes ago, Steve from SoCal said: I have a 48 volt phantom system in my truck right now. With 4 starting batteries, I am looking at adding a 48 volt alternator to the truck. Steve On ideas was spinning in my head was 48V generator mounted to a Honda motor. The generator could be used to start the motor. 2011 Cameo 34SB3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve from SoCal Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 5 minutes ago, J-T said: On ideas was spinning in my head was 48V generator mounted to a Honda motor. The generator could be used to start the motor. That is an option. I personally want to stay away from having different fuel systems, that was one reason for going all electric in the Teton. Propane, gas and, other fuels add more complexity not to mention having to source them. The KISS approach make sense, it minimizes the possibility that you run out or forget to refuel. Steve 2005 Peterbilt 387-112 Baby Cat 9 speed U-shift 1996/2016 remod Teton Royal Atlanta 1996 Kentucky 48 single drop stacker garage project Pulls like a train, sounds like a plane....faster than a Cheetah sniffin cocaine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted January 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 The mini split continues to supply heat even in teens. very much unlike Dometics do. Do not believe I want to go all electric though. 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sipester Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 If you are going 48 volt and using a mini-split, then the real benefit of both is to go all the way with a 48 volt DC air conditioner/heat pump like these: http://www.geinnovations.net/HSAC_Productline.html That eliminates the whole issue of needing so much inverter capacity (as AC/heatpump can run directly off the battery). Another benefit of the 48 volt inverter is that they charge at a higher rate (the magnum 2.8kw 12volt model only charges at 1,800 watts/hr (125amp * 12 volts), whereas the 4.4kw inverter/charger by Magnum chargers at 2,880 watts/hr (60amp * 48 volts). So by going to 48volts, it is easier to charge the battery bank faster when running the genset (otherwise, those high capacity gensets are kind of a waste since they are usually limited in charging capacity). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted January 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 42 minutes ago, sipester said: If you are going 48 volt and using a mini-split, then the real benefit of both is to go all the way with a 48 volt DC air conditioner/heat pump like these: http://www.geinnovations.net/HSAC_Productline.html That eliminates the whole issue of needing so much inverter capacity (as AC/heatpump can run directly off the battery). Another benefit of the 48 volt inverter is that they charge at a higher rate (the magnum 2.8kw 12volt model only charges at 1,800 watts/hr (125amp * 12 volts), whereas the 4.4kw inverter/charger by Magnum chargers at 2,880 watts/hr (60amp * 48 volts). So by going to 48volts, it is easier to charge the battery bank faster when running the genset (otherwise, those high capacity gensets are kind of a waste since they are usually limited in charging capacity). Only issues I have with the 48v mini split is output. 18k highest available I have found. That would require 2 and that's my problem. Where to put that second unit. 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noteven Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 5 hours ago, J-T said: On ideas was spinning in my head was 48V generator mounted to a Honda motor. The generator could be used to start the motor. A Honda engine or Honda (electric) motor? "Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALLOY Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 3 hours ago, noteven said: A Honda engine or Honda (electric) motor? Engine....does Honda makes electric motors? https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ALPHAGEN-DCX3000-DC-DC-GENERATOR-NEW_50027410976.html 2011 Cameo 34SB3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noteven Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 Yes Honda does make electric motors http://www.motortrend.com/news/hondas-new-electric-motor-works-without-essential-rare-earth-metals/amp/ no offense intended - I'm very easily confused by all things electrical. "Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmup68 Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 23 hours ago, GlennWest said: Only issues I have with the 48v mini split is output. 18k highest available I have found. That would require 2 and that's my problem. Where to put that second unit. Mr. Glenn, so you want to upgrade your current mini split to a larger unit for more cooling capacity? Not add a second mini split, right? I’ve been trying to figure out where to place a mini split in the Teton bedroom to no avail. Only possibility I see is in closet and try to tie the output into the existing ducts. 2003 International Eagle 9200i, Cummins ISX, Freedomline 2007 Teton Scottsdale XT4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappir Posted January 7, 2018 Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 At some point I will start looking seriously for a complete volt battery pack. Right not I cannot. If anyone finds they cannot use the entire pack I would be interested in a 48 volt section to put in my truck. Rod White 2000/2010Volvo VNL 770 with 7' Drom box with opposing doors, JOST slider hitch. 600 HP Cummins Signature 18 Speed three pedal auto shift. 1999 Isuzu VehiCross retired to a sticks and bricks garage. Brought out of storage the summer of 2022 2022 Jeep Wrangler Sport S Two door hard top. 2007 Honda GL 1800 2013 Space Craft Mfg S420 Custom built Toyhauler The Gold Volvo is still running and being emptied in July. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted January 7, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 54 minutes ago, lockmup68 said: Mr. Glenn, so you want to upgrade your current mini split to a larger unit for more cooling capacity? Not add a second mini split, right? I’ve been trying to figure out where to place a mini split in the Teton bedroom to no avail. Only possibility I see is in closet and try to tie the output into the existing ducts. I have found that a unit in the bedroom is not needed in our Teton. We bought a Dyson fan, skinny, bladeless. Does a fantastic job of pulling air to bedroom. We at this point have the 12k mini split and 1 15k Dometic. Kept us comfortable in south Texas heat. I want to add a second inside unit and do away with Dometic completely. 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted January 7, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2018 33 minutes ago, lappir said: At some point I will start looking seriously for a complete volt battery pack. Right not I cannot. If anyone finds they cannot use the entire pack I would be interested in a 48 volt section to put in my truck. Rod 1kw and 2kw packs are on ebay now. 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmup68 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 20 minutes ago, GlennWest said: I have found that a unit in the bedroom is not needed in our Teton. We bought a Dyson fan, skinny, bladeless. Does a fantastic job of pulling air to bedroom. We at this point have the 12k mini split and 1 15k Dometic. Kept us comfortable in south Texas heat. I want to add a second inside unit and do away with Dometic completely. Where you putting the second unit? 2003 International Eagle 9200i, Cummins ISX, Freedomline 2007 Teton Scottsdale XT4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted January 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 Over the slideout in living room. Enough room there. Will have to concele lines with something 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALLOY Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 12 hours ago, noteven said: Yes Honda does make electric motors http://www.motortrend.com/news/hondas-new-electric-motor-works-without-essential-rare-earth-metals/amp/ no offense intended - I'm very easily confused by all things electrical. I'm easily confused by all things....I was thinking electric....like a fan motor. 2011 Cameo 34SB3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappir Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 15 hours ago, GlennWest said: 1kw and 2kw packs are on ebay now. Thanks. Found a 2kw for $285 or best offer. Location Arizona. White 2000/2010Volvo VNL 770 with 7' Drom box with opposing doors, JOST slider hitch. 600 HP Cummins Signature 18 Speed three pedal auto shift. 1999 Isuzu VehiCross retired to a sticks and bricks garage. Brought out of storage the summer of 2022 2022 Jeep Wrangler Sport S Two door hard top. 2007 Honda GL 1800 2013 Space Craft Mfg S420 Custom built Toyhauler The Gold Volvo is still running and being emptied in July. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmup68 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 15 hours ago, GlennWest said: Over the slideout in living room. Enough room there. Will have to concele lines with something so two units in main room then. Got it. 2003 International Eagle 9200i, Cummins ISX, Freedomline 2007 Teton Scottsdale XT4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmup68 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 so if I understand correctly, Lion batteries and amp hours are completely different. How many 48v 2kw "batteries" if you will, are needed to get ~1200 amp hours of storage? Or how do you size the battery bank accordingly? And for chevy volt batteries, do you need to worry about degredataion? How hold is too old? I assume they can be refreshed easily? For example, here is a 2kw 48v bank of a 2013 Volt battery for $300 shipped. Is this a good deal? Would one need four of these? https://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Chevy-Volt-Battery-2kWh-pack-Solar-Golf-cart/222420955803?hash=item33c952729b:g:PZEAAOSwVJhZSXm0&vxp=mtr 2003 International Eagle 9200i, Cummins ISX, Freedomline 2007 Teton Scottsdale XT4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted January 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 The big advantage with Lithium is so much more usable battery in a small package. As far as amp hours, a lead acid 20% usable amps. Lithium 70% use of amps. Also you get solid voltage the full range. There was a post here a year or so ago with Lithium battery results.for 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennWest Posted January 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmup68 Posted January 8, 2018 Report Share Posted January 8, 2018 2 hours ago, GlennWest said: The big advantage with Lithium is so much more usable battery in a small package. As far as amp hours, a lead acid 20% usable amps. Lithium 70% use of amps. Also you get solid voltage the full range. There was a post here a year or so ago with Lithium battery results. Real world results The 2kw 48v bank listed above says 64ah? So four of those would be 256 ah. I believe I read on one of David's posts that amp hours on lion are not comparable to AGM/wet amp hours, so trying to figure out how much 48v batteries are needed to equal an AGM 1200 ah system. Maybe I'm out in left field> 2003 International Eagle 9200i, Cummins ISX, Freedomline 2007 Teton Scottsdale XT4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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