What's the difference?

[tinstartrvlr]

So I often hear that fulltimers should buy an RV (TT, 5th, MH) made for fulltime use. Does anyone know exactly what the difference is? Seems to me they are all pretty much made the same and use mostly the same materials, so I am a little curious as to what separates them. Any thoughts?

[Orvil Hazelton]

My wife and I have full-timed in our Tiffin Phaeton since 2010. . . happily I might say. There are clearly pros and cons to whichever choice you may make. I can't help you with your choices other than to suggest that you begin looking at the many options available while beginning a list of what you like and what you may need. Oh, don't forget to include costs (yes, plural) to your list. You have journey to take; take your time and enjoy it. By the way, either I, or many other members of this forum will be happy to answer any specific questions that you may care to ask. As always, oRV

[tinstartrvlr]

This isn't a decision thing,,,I am happy with my current setup. Just curious what the difference is, if there really is one.

[trailertraveler]

Here is a really good discussion of the issue from another recent thread.

There is a lot of discussion about so called "fulltime rated" or not fulltime rated RVs but there is no such rating system in use by the RV industry. There is an excellent guide for RV evaluation published by the RV Consumer Group that does separate RVs into such categories, but much of the common use of the terms are by people who are not members of the group (we were for about 15 years) and who really don't understand the term as defined or know what RVs are in each category. Most of the use of that term here is just a generic use to try and separate the RVs that are well build from those which are not so well built. There is very good reason why there are models which are built by the same RV manufacturer and are the same size that are very different in price. That reason is the difference in materials used in construction of the RV. RVCG has tried to break the different models into some type of category that makes it possible to price/quality compare the different brands of RV which are marketed to the same general market sector. People who buy an RV just for occasional use have no real need to spend enough for one of the highest quality RVs. The divisions do not say that you can't live in any of the different choices, but it is safe to say that if you could live in any of the different types, but those at the high end will survive that type of use for many years and still be reliable, while those at the lower end (price/quality) will not. You can very easily see that by visiting several used RV lots and notice that the RVs which are at the top of the price/quality market can be found still available after 15 to 20 years of use in fairly large numbers, while those at the lowest price side are seldom found at more than 10 years old, even though they were probably used less than the more expensive ones. Since you are shopping used, unless you plan to buy a different RV every 5 to 10 years, you need to be very careful to purchase something that was well built and which will survive the constant use.

 

We lived in our RV, with no house anywhere for 12 years and ours was in the group that RVCG rates as Snowbird use. Here are the actual categories, from the RV Consumer Group.

Nobody says that you can't live in any of these, but they do say that this was the level of use each group were designed for and which they can be expected to hold up and continue to look good and serve well with minimal maintenance and repair. It is important to realize that the vacation and weekend user seldom puts more than 30 - 60 days use on the RV and it's appliances in any given year, while the person living in his will put more than 5 times that much use and so things will wear out quickly if not designed for a higher level of use.

 

The other factor involved is your level of comfort in your chosen RV. The RVs at the lower end of this market group have very little insulation, all waste tanks and plumbing are exposed to the weather and they never have things like dual pane windows, all of which will be found in the tow highest rated groups. I have been using RVs since we bought our first one in 1972 and I can tell you that it is very difficult to live comfortably in the vacation group of RVs for very long or when weather is difficult. On the other hand, we lived very comfortably in our "snowbird" rated RV for 12 years, experiencing most types of weather and when we sold it after 14 years of owning it, the RV still looked quite attractive and the new owners were quite happy with it as snowbirds and the last I heard from them was a year ago. The RV in question was a 1998 model. At the age which you are, most of us assume that you want an RV which can survive constant use for many years without excessive need of repair. This means that you need to get one of more than entry level quality. In addition, you will need an RV that maintains it's appearance with proper maintenance as really ugly RVs are not welcomed into many of the nicer RV parks. There are many people on these forums who have lived in the RV which they chose for a long time and you would be wise to pay attention to what they suggest.

 

Most RV manufacturers build models that are designed with each of the groups of use in mind. Even the most reputable RV builder's cheapest RV can't be expected to hold up as well as would his most expensive one. Most of us who have lived in our RVs for a long period have chosen one of the models that would fit into one of the top three groups above and most would be in either snowbird or fulltimer. There is probably no RV made that someone has not lived in all of the time. I knew a fellow who bought an older, lowest priced RV which he lived in for a long time but his chief hobby was maintaining that RV. He completely rebuilt it inside and over time replaced nearly all of the interior and did major upgrades to it outside and also remodeled the chassis. Being a handy person, he actually spent far less than we did, but he also spent many more hours working on the RV than I and he also has a better set of skills than I have. Even so, he did so and he kept a 5 year old, low price RV for more than 15 years and may still have it. There is no doubt that some people can do what he did, but most of us either can't do that or do not want to. Remember that this is not supposed to be a survival experience but an enjoyable way to live.

[SWharton]

All units can be lived in fulltime, just depends on what compromises you want to make. Yes, some say "not for fulltime use" but I have always questioned what that means. If you look at construction workers the rigs they have(which they use fulltime) generally wouldn't make the definition of "fulltime use" rv.

[Kirk W]

Seems to me they are all pretty much made the same and use mostly the same materials, so I am a little curious as to what separates them.

If you examine an RV from the top of the price/quality side of the market and one from the lower price/quality side at the same time, it should be pretty easy to see major differences on the surface, but the most important differences are under the skin and out of sight.

While price is not the best way to judge the quality point, it is pretty safe to say that the RVs at the top price are of higher quality than those at the bottom. The fact that there are no defined standards to separate them is much of what makes it difficult to price compare since there is a market for most every price level available. As I suggested in the quote posted by trailertraveler, the only people who I am aware of that are working to define the different construction & quality levels in a manner that would enable a novice to compare, is the RV Consumer Group.

 

Since I have owned RVs of several levels and have extensive experience using the RV Consumer Group category groupings, I'll try to make a comparison between two RVs which I have actually owned. To avoid any brand preference, I won't be sharing the manufacturer as that isn't important to this discussion. The RV which we lived in fulltime was catagorized as "snowbird" meaning the next to the top grouping by RVCG while the one I presently own is in the "vacation" group and both are well rated for quality by the RVCG. So let's compare the two in a few important ways.

 

The snowbird RV had tinted, dual pane windows, while the vacation one has plain glass and no optional dual pane offered.

 

Snowbird RV had all steel, welded framework with thermal breaks in the wall & roof members while vacation has aluminum frame and no thermal breaks of any kind and none offered.

 

Snowbird had closed cell foam insulation and laminated walls while vacation has fiberglass insulation with conventional aluminum siding. Snowbird roof was marine plywood with EDPM covering while vacation is aluminum.

 

Snowbird came with 50a electrical service and 4 circuits of outlets, vacation has 30a service, 1 circuit of 20a for all outlets. Snowbird came standard with 2 deep cycle batteries and option for 4 while vacation has one. Snowbird had standard Square D electrical distribution panel with separate 12v fuse panel and converter that was stand-alone, while vacation has a single unit that combines all three into one, made for the RV industry (or cheap).

 

Snowbird had all plumbing and all tanks inside with heat supplied to those areas to prevent freezing, while vacation has waste tanks that are in the frame and exposed to the weather and some of the plumbing is also under the floor and exposed to outside temperatures.

 

Snowbird had solid wood in all cabinet doors and drawer fronts and other places where handling is common while vacation uses mostly vinyl covered particle board in everything. (Fulltime rated would have solid wood in all cabinets) Snowbird had real plywood in cabinet construction while vacation has vinyl covered particle board. Snowbird had drawer interiors made of plywood while vacation has plastic pans.

 

This could go on and on, but these items should begin to give some feel for what is different in the various levels of RV. In addition, the workmanship, typically called "fit and finish" of the snowbird was quite apparently one with higher quality work and materials than our vacation model.

 

The justification for the different versions of an RV is simply that we could justify the use of funds to buy the more expensive snowbird unit when we planned to live in it as our only home, which puts far more wear and tear on it than to just vacation in an RV. We lived in it for nearly 12 years of the 14 years that we owned it and in those years we probably were not in the RV perhaps 30 total nights. We are now in the fourth year of owning the vacation RV and expect to be very near 365 nights spent in it by the end of this year. While we were quite comfortable in the snowbird RV in some summer weather that exceeded 100° and also some winter days that were only 40° with nights below freezing, we did so quite comfortably because the snowbird had large air conditioners/furnace and good insulation but with our snowbird we find it much less pleasant and difficult to keep comfortable when temperatures go to extremes. There is no doubt that we could manage to live in our vacation all of the time as we have spent as much as 5 consecutive months in it, but the comfort level would not be nearly as good and I would spend far more time fixing things while interior appearance would decline far more rapidly even with good maintenance.

[kb0zke]

Yes, people can and do full-time in all sorts of rigs. Some people even full-time with motorcycles and tents.

 

Generally, coaches that are suitable for full-time use are higher quality ones. They generally have better construction and use better materials. Yes, the appliances may be the same in all coaches, but take a look at the drawer construction, the wall and floor coverings, the windows, etc. Manufacturers know that full-timers take their coaches all over everywhere all the time, whereas vacationers use their coaches only a few days each year. The warranty is the same (generally one year) for both. One coach is used maybe 30 days in that time, while the other is used 365 days. No wonder that the full-time-rated coaches have better quality materials (and cost more).

 

Shortly after we bought our Foretravel we met a couple that had purchased a brand-new popular DP for their full-time adventure. Less than a year later they could see that their initial choice wasn't going to stand up to full-time use, so they traded it even-up for a 10-year-old Foretravel.

[tinstartrvlr]

Thanks all.

 

Kirk you explained it well-that's what I was looking for. Guess I must have something in the mid grade as it has a lot of the good qualities, but lacks plenty as well.

 

Always learning something new here....!

[bruce t]

Do a few factory tours. You'll soon see what's under the skin.

 

regards

[The Quiet Assassin]

As Kirk says some are put together with particle board stapled to wooden framing, others have welded aluminium framing and use pop rivets.

 

Some can be lifted in the air using the integral jacks and will self level on the roughest of sites, others have to be parked on smooth ground and the jacks adjusted so they carry equal loads before you can get the toilet door open.

 

Some come apart in quite minor bumps.

 

 

[Ray,IN]

It is often easy to distinguish RV's not designed for full-time use. It will state in the warranty that if it is used for full-time living the warranty is void.

[Kirk W]

It is often easy to distinguish RV's not designed for full-time use. It will state in the warranty that if it is used for full-time living the warranty is void.

That is, or used to be quite common in RV warranty statements, but to date the only warranty repair that I have ever heard of having been rejected on that statement was one case where some structural repairs were declined. That was quite a few years ago and I've heard of none since, but it could be a valid reason for selecting a different brand. Our KZ travel trailer does not have that in the warranty, even though it was clearly not designed to be lived in.

 

Has anyone actually known personally of a warranty repair being declined on the basis of that statement in a warranty?

[oscarvan]

As we are considering "changing things around" I am very much trying to get my head round the quality issue. We won't ever be full time, but we are planning on spending a lot of time on the road.... as much as 6-8 weeks a pop. Call it semi-full time.

 

What I am finding is that, while materials and design are a major factor in quality differences, the building process is almost even more important. My fiver is middle of the pack in materials and design, but had it been assembled with care it would be a much better unit. The vast majority of RV's are built in or near Elkhart Indiana, and the prevailing arrangement is that employees are paid by the unit. You can go into almost any bar and meet people that will boast that they're "done by noon and make 90K"..... Speed is EVERYTHING. And, tight is good.....stripped is better.

 

This is maddening to me, because if they would slow down just a little and put some better QC processes in place there would be a LOT less heartache out there.

 

So, I am trying to determine which manufacturers DO care about doing it right.....not an easy process.

 

Seems the first step is to go to the owners forum and see if there are frequently recurring problems. In the case of my current unit (see sig line) there have been a lot of issues with frame flex. Yes they fix it, but it's a PITA and shouldn't be happening in the first place. Also, we had a problem with waaay too many OE tires blowing. Then there is the endless procession of fasteners falling out, heads popping etc. etc. Last but not least the absolute failure to PROPERLY seal out the weather in a variety of locations. Speed and caulk guns are a bad combination. Take your time, do it right.

 

There are a few brands that seem to have nothing but happy owners on their fora. Yes, they also are in the top few tiers for price. And although I have no evidence (yet) that it is the case in the RV world, I have learned (the hard way) that high price is not always a guarantee for quality.

[Kirk W]

There are a few brands that seem to have nothing but happy owners on their fora. Yes, they also are in the top few tiers for price. And although I have no evidence (yet) that it is the case in the RV world, I have learned (the hard way) that high price is not always a guarantee for quality.

It has been my observation over many years that no RV built is so perfect that it has no unsatisfied customers and neither is any brand so bad that it has no supporters. I have twice met owners of a Prevost who had little good to say of their RVs and if you want to start a serious firestorm on the forums, just make a statement that any brand you wish is just junk. Most of us prefer to believe that whatever we bought is one of the good ones, although occasionally we get angry and jump to the other extreme. I believe that you get a much more nearly balanced view from a group like the RV Consumer Group or one of the others who review and rate RVs. While RVCG is the best know of such groups, they are not the only one doing this and neither are they completely unbiased but they do attempt to be. It is difficult to find a person who has RV experience who has no preconceived ideal about who builds a quality RV.

 

The last place that I'd suggest is one of the RV magazine reviews since such reviews always seem to be accompanied by a full page advertisement for the RV being reviewed. You can't sell advertisements to companies that you give poor reviews! There are companies that have better and longer track records of quality and support, but even they are not perfect.

 

I completely agree with you that quality control is a serious weakness with all but the most expensive of RVs but much of that is the fault of we RV buyers. QC is an expensive operation which returns no income to the business and because so many RV purchases are price driven, companies that put quality above the price rarely survive for long. The history of the RV industry is littered with now defunct companies that put quality first and soon failed for lack of sales success. I do think that there has been some improvement in that side of the industry as the RV buying public has become better educated about what should be considered in an RV, but the progress has been very slow because price still seems to rule the majority of the market.

 

The vast majority of RV's are built in or near Elkhart Indiana, and the prevailing arrangement is that employees are paid by the unit. You can go into almost any bar and meet people that will boast that they're "done by noon and make 90K".....

This remark picks my interest, as I've not run across it before and would like more information about it. Are you saying that employees in the RV industry are paid by the job and not the hour, & that they work by a "flat rate book" or some per unit system? Please do tell us more as I honestly don't know but always thought that they were hourly. I have been in Elkhart several times but never spent any time in bars there.

[Ray,IN]

I'm having trouble correlating getting paid by piece-work and "getting done by noon", with an RV mfgrs. assembly line. There are few RV mfgrs. that do not have an assembly line(s), and those that custom build would never work with speed of assembly as a criteria, as it would destroy their purpose in building a high-dollar RV.

[ronmon]

A few years ago we were at an Escapade in Goshen & "skipped" out for a factory tour of a large (still in existence now) trailer manufacturer. It was Thursday afternoon & we had a time slot for the tour. In the office we were told that the guide would take us on the walk-through, but the line was not operating because "they'd met their quota for the week!". Marked that one off the list!

 

Ron

[richfaa]

IMO..The term Made for full time use or All seasons is a manufacturing term to sell more RV's. Folks
full time long time in all brands all price ranges some are indeed better suited for prolonged use.

These are R.. ecretaional V....ehicles intended for recreational use and NOT full time living no
matter what the manufactures marketing says.

 

We have been to the Elkhart ,Goshen area many ,many times. The work day is about 6AM to 2:30PM the workers punch in like any factory worker. They are hourly workers and there may be overtime deepening on the economy. We have toured many plants and the line moves right along. At one time the Keystone Montana plan was producing 22 units a day and the last we asked it was 18 units a day that number again changes with sales and the economy. We have been "camped out" at the Keystone Montana service center while our RV was under repair and they always seemed to start around 6Am and stop around 2:30PM.

[dewilso]

Depends on if you are a "full timer" looking for low cost housing to park and let sit, or a "full timer" wanting to travel.