Tornado Warning in Livingston--No place to go!

[NH2]

I guess I'm having a problem understanding why you would go to the Activity Center when the brochure clearly says NOT to use that location...and then be upset to find the doors are locked?

 

Now, if you'd gone to the restrooms as directed and found THOSE doors locked, then I'd say you'd have a reason to be upset.

In the state of high stress, I made too many assumptions.

1) I assumed the bathrooms would be packed by those living closer to them

2) I assumed the Activity Center would be unlocked where I could find a corner of a small room for shelter

I only had time to choose one; I chose incorrectly.

Mark

[sandsys]

When we've taken shelter in park restrooms we've been the only ones there even though we were not the only ones in the park. One park did send us to an activity center and we were not the only ones there but the number there vs the number in the park was small. At home, we often watch TV/Internet and out the window to determine how serious the threat actually is. We have taken shelter at home but it is rare since most tornadoes in this general area pass north of us. But, for those who don't know, if the sky turns green take shelter immediately! In a house, an interior bathroom is good; in the tub with a mattress pulled over you is better.

 

Linda Sand

[2gypsies]

We, too, have spent time in the Alabama state park restrooms as we've traveled the area often. The rangers there even came door to door with the weather report. We always had ready to grab when in these storm areas our flashlight, weather radio, two small camp chairs, a couple bottles of water and some snacks. Then, as directed, we went to the restrooms - didn't care what sex was printed on the door.

 

Even though the campgrounds would be highly occupied, we were always surprised that there were only a handful that used the designated storm shelter.

 

Keep in mind that the restrooms are usually the best place to go. Many activity buildings are frame-built. Even though some restrooms might be frame-built, they are usually smaller and just might cause less damage than a much larger building collasping. However, nothing is absolutely 100% safe.

[AlCherry]

Well, keep your radar active, more heading this way (Livingston area). I'm actually in my RV in the backyard due to no power.

[Kirk W]

There are several reasons why so many parks and public facilities have their shelter areas in restrooms. One is that there is plumbing in the walls which tends to make them stronger. Another is that they have a source of water and of sanitary facilities in the event that they are occupied for a long period. Yet another reason is that they are never used for storage space and so are available for use. FEMA suggests the use of public restrooms if you plan to reenforce a space as a shelter. One of the more interesting things that I learned about tornado protection was that about 80% of the tornado casualties are from people injured by flying debris from one passing nearby and not directly from the damage it did.

[Ray,IN]

The reasoning for designating bath/restrooms for shelters are: #1, walls are close together which arguably make the structure stronger, #2, there are facilities for relieving ones-self-which happens more frequently when nervous and/or upset.

That doesn't mean it IS safer, but the feeling of being in a safer place is comforting.

FWIW, some years ago a man on irv2.com computed the wind speed required to overturn his 5er. I think it was 80 mph or more sidewind.

[AC7880]

We were at the Livingston SKP park last month. Upon arrival I read the information the park provided (as I do everywhere we stay). I knew immediately upon reading this thread that in the old section the restrooms next to the laundry is the designated shelter.

 

I would call this one a lesson learned and begin to read information upon arrival.

 

 

[mionerr]

I have a related question. While driving down a road in a heavily wooded area (couldn't see the storm front) we heard the sirens go off. We weren't in an RV at the time but could easily have been.

The question is what do you do?

We couldn't think of anything so just continued on our way. Figured the odds were the same if we were moving or staying put.

[Kirk W]

The question is what do you do?

We couldn't think of anything so just continued on our way. Figured the odds were the same if we were moving or staying put.

I believe that you probably did what the vast majority of people do, but it may not be the best answer. When you can't see if you are driving into or away from the problem area, that makes it somewhat more difficult as in open areas you can move at right angles to the storm's path and at least shorten your time in the danger area. I have never had that experience, but would likely do as you did, although the experts say to find a place and take cover.

[Cyberdave]

Kirk, there are safe rooms built to withstand 250 mph winds. FEMA provides plans to build these safe rooms.

 

There is network of builders that follow these guidelines.

[Kirk W]

Dave, you are correct as I have a copy of FEMA's shelter information package, including a copy of the safe-room construction plans when we were looking at construction of our community center. There are several safe rooms in homes here and we have a room that has been reenforced based upon their guide in our home.

[Cyberdave]

Yes, it's a major leap forward in the design and safety. I wouldn't have a house built that did not have a safe room.

That concrete box is not going anywhere...

[Carol2c]

Hi,

Just an observation: by the nature of our lifestyle choice(s) as a collective group, we are more likely to be affected by adverse weather events than the general non-transient population. (Adverse weather will strike a mid size or larger population center on average about every 20 years). As such it is our individual responsibility to be aware of the risks and risk avoidance options available. It sounds like NH2 ( Mark and Sue) did the right thing by signing up for weather alert notices and trying to take appropriate shelter. Although if the park has adverse weather advice in their park information brochure and you did not read or follow the advise it is not the parks responsibility.

 

I appreciate and understand about liability issues and hence why most parks and campgrounds don't have or don't designate buildings as storm shelters. However, parks and campgrounds do have an obligation to advise residents (especially transient residents) of the most appropriate place to take shelter in adverse weather events. Cinder block construction is not tornado proof yet a better option than an RV or large span or light weight steel buildings. My message is read or review all the information the park gives you when you register and familiarize yourself with the parks emergency information before going to bed the first night there. After an alarm sounds is not the best time to make your safety plans.

[chirakawa]

However, parks and campgrounds do have an obligation to advise residents (especially transient residents) of the most appropriate place to take shelter in adverse weather events.

 

Could you cite a source for this statement please?

[cayo]

I'm terrified of tornadoes, having missed two only by the grace of God, and others too close for comfort. I ceased full timing because of this. I have wished I could get over my fear and get back on the road, but after four years in a house in a safer location, I haven't yet been able to eradicate my fear.

[wa_desert_rat]

 

Could you cite a source for this statement please?

All I did was type "presumptive duty to warn" into Google and came up with this right off the bat. If you want to dig further you'd be welcome to do so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_warn

 

The idea is that a guest or a stranger on your property needs to be apprised of all dangers whether mortal dangers or not. It only comes to life in tort which presumes one person entering into litigation with another after the fact. But I bet it's mentioned in a lot of liability insurance policies.

 

WDR

[Kirk W]

I appreciate and understand about liability issues and hence why most parks and campgrounds don't have or don't designate buildings as storm shelters. However, parks and campgrounds do have an obligation to advise residents (especially transient residents) of the most appropriate place to take shelter in adverse weather events. Cinder block construction is not tornado proof yet a better option than an RV or large span or light weight steel buildings. My message is read or review all the information the park gives you when you register and familiarize yourself with the parks emergency information before going to bed the first night there.

I very much agree with you on this. Chirakawa could be right in questioning a legal responsibility but that doesn't lessen the moral responsibility involved in this issue. As to the type building to take cover in, there is very little that will survive a direct hit from a tornado of force 4 or 5 and even the smaller ones will do major damage to what they hit directly. But an RV is probably the poorest choice of shelter because they can be easily rolled over, the walls will not stop much by way of flying debris which is the biggest cause of injuries, and most any site built structure will provide more shelter in a major storm. Best shelters are usually interior rooms with no windows. More layers of wall do a lot to stop debris. Walls that have plumbing are stronger and tend to survive a tornado or other major storm event so restrooms & bathrooms tend to be more safe.

I'm terrified of tornadoes, having missed two only by the grace of God, and others too close for comfort. I ceased full timing because of this. I have wished I could get over my fear and get back on the road, but after four years in a house in a safer location, I haven't yet been able to eradicate my fear.

It sounds as though your fears go beyond what is really justifiable, so my comments may not be of much help, but it is very important to realize that near miss situations are all that most people who live in tornado prone areas ever experience. I have lived about 40 of my 70+ years in areas where tornadoes are common, yet the nearest any ever came to my home or RV was in WY where they are quite rare and that one was about 1 block away with nearest damage to me being 3 houses away. Most people who live their entire lives in major tornado states never experience any tornado damage. My next older sister has lived somewhere in Kansas her entire life and has only once had a tornado pass less than 1/2 mile from her and never had any damage to her home or property. The thing which does most damage in the bigger thunderstorms is not tornadoes but hail. That is damage that we have both experienced, although not in our RVs.

 

I might also note that your profile shows your home to be Rapid City, and we spent the summer of 2014 pretty close to you and it too is in thunderstorm prone area, yet you are still safe and healthy! It does not matter where you live, there are at times natural phenomena that can do you harm will be nearby. Tornadoes seem to get the most attention from the news media of late so we all fear them, just as they wish us to do. Back a few years the big scare was hurricanes but no big ones have hit, so just as the media always does, they are blowing something else all our of proportion. If it isn't one of those, they will find an earthquake or a forest fire, but the media will find something to report frightening stories about! Do not allow these trumped up stories to cause you to live in fright. Proper precautions for any of these are warranted, but living in fear of them is not.

[chirakawa]

All I did was type "presumptive duty to warn" into Google and came up with this right off the bat. If you want to dig further you'd be welcome to do so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_warn

 

The idea is that a guest or a stranger on your property needs to be apprised of all dangers whether mortal dangers or not. It only comes to life in tort which presumes one person entering into litigation with another after the fact. But I bet it's mentioned in a lot of liability insurance policies.

 

WDR

 

A property owner has an obligation to warn visitors of hazards unique to the property. I know of no obligation to warn a visitor of the perils of nature or of dangers not specifically associated with the property. If you believe they do, then you should expect every RV park, hotel, restaurant, convenience store, Walmart, etc. to issue you a ten page disclaimer cautioning you against all risks you may encounter in life while visiting their property. This would include criminal activity, overeating, walking barefoot on hot asphalt, carcinogens, hot coffee, computer viruses, squeezing pimples, etc.

 

I certainly agree that in areas prone to certain types of weather events, it would be a good business move to make visitors aware of such and suggest ways of dealing with them. But, an obligation? I didn't see anything in your link which demonstrated that to me.

[Daveh]

The property owner's duty to warn really has more to do with a a duty to disclose a danger on a property that is not readily observable. I can't think of a good example when I want one but think in terms of a mine shaft, ice, electricity etc. In this case we are talking about an act of God that is not inherent to the property. In this case I think the campground owner's duty would mostly be controlled by applicable state regulatory law.

[Daveh]

I see we said the same thing. A campground owner may have certain obligations to provide emergency instructions etc. by virtue of state statutory law--analogous to inkeepers laws. Also, once a campground owner undertakes the duty, even voluntarily, to provide instructions or resources for emergency response, they have a duty to do so in a manner which is not negligent. Other than those two situations, I don't think a property owner has a duty to warn regarding an Act of God event.

[Piedmontexpress]

There are several reasons why so many parks and public facilities have their shelter areas in restrooms. One is that there is plumbing in the walls which tends to make them stronger. Another is that they have a source of water and of sanitary facilities in the event that they are occupied for a long period. Yet another reason is that they are never used for storage space and so are available for use. FEMA suggests the use of public restrooms if you plan to reenforce a space as a shelter. One of the more interesting things that I learned about tornado protection was that about 80% of the tornado casualties are from people injured by flying debris from one passing nearby and not directly from the damage it did.

[Piedmontexpress]

And about the flying debris it's a great idea to grab your bike or motorcycle helmets ( if you wear them) due to the statistics most dead or injured from storms is due to head trauma.