Tesla Battery

[hemsteadc]

About 3 hours. With full solar running, much longer.

[RV_]

Or you could do two PowerWalls and run as long as you like. I think many who have already bought inverter systems are trying to fit this into that scenario. Let's throw that system out, figuratively. I just realized y'all were speaking Motorhome and I was speaking 5th wheel.

A new RVr insetting up a used or new RV of any type, assuming it has no inverters just a regular 120-12v converter for their 12v side. The shore power comes in the regular line and to the fuse box/converter and the 120 goes out from there as well as the 12v with separate fuse boxes.

Now assume there is no expensive multi component system installed and we are going from scratch.

The PowerWall gets mounted on the outside back or inside as it is only 5 inches thick. The regular 50 Amp shore power comes into the PowerWall for charging and then goes out to the regular Converter to split the 120 volt and 12V to their respective fuse boxes.

That is it.

Just like a grid connected PowerWall in a house.

In an RV:

The PowerWall weighs 276 pounds including the built in inverter and cooling system.

A system using six Trojan 105 batteries at 62 pounds each is 372 pounds total weight. 96 pounds more than PowerWall

A system using four T-105 batteries at 62 pounds each is 248 pounds total weight. Only 28 pounds less than PowerWall.

Source Trojan T105 specs: http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/T105_Trojan_Data_Sheets.pdf

That eliminates the extra inverters and more complicated battery and connector storage and maintenance. This can be on an inside wall and not taking up storage space. I would likely have it installed in the basement hanging from the basement ceiling.

I doubt an RV can hold enough solar panels to charge it and keep the power up as it runs the house. My home in summer running the 4 ton A/C and other normal use appliances would need two PowerWalls and about 15kw of solar minimum for summer. Winter we use a natural gas furnace.

1 PowerWall:

Usable Capacity 13.5 kWh

Depth of Discharge 100%

Efficiency 90% round-trip

Power 7kW peak / 5kW continuous

Supported Applications Solar self-consumption Back-up power Time-of-use load shifting (coming soon) Off-grid capabilities (coming soon)

Warranty

10 years

Scalable Up to 10 Powerwalls

Operating Temperature -4°F to 122°F / -20°C to 50°C

Dimensions L x W x D: 44" x 29" x 5.5" (1150mm x 755mm x 155mm)

Weight 276 lbs / 125 kg

Installation Floor or wall mounted Indoor or outdoor

Certification North American and International Standards Grid code compliant

Were we to buy another larger RV and go full-time again I would install a PowerWall and charge it when in an RV park, then have a week or so battery when boondocking.

We travel and do not snowbird two locations. So a PowerWall would give us silent A/C in a WalMart overnight, or power the fan for heat. As well it would run the A/C and reefer on the road without having a generator.

For Boondockers that never pay for a space with full hookups to dump and charge, they would be better off with all the generators extra inverter/batteries/wires and doing things the old fashioned way.

I also imagine that for charging, the engineers at Tesla could figure out a faster charge system for RVs using the two 120 circuits on the 50 amp pedestal conections..

Let's face it, at 3 feet 8 inches tall, two feet five inches wide, and 5.5 inches thick, fully self contained , it could be between the dining table and wall, under the bed, suspended from the basement ceiling leaving basement storage still available. No battery acid and 10 year warranty.

For boondockers that make do without A/C anyway, and don't pay for hookups, they could just keep their current system, ditch the batteries and see if their small solar system can power and have some power left over for charging to keep the PowerWall topped off. I don't know.

But for both regular RV travels, and boondocking occasionally or all the time, these will open entirely new ways to RV, with more freedom.

https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

 

[GlennWest]

This is an interesting topic. Considering Chevy Volt battery. 

[RV_]

On 1/15/2018 at 6:27 AM, jpcoll01 said:

I hate to use math or “facts” this early in the morning but to get the same capacity he got you would have to buy approximately $35k worth of powerwalls or roughly double the investment that he has in this “ugly mess”.  It’s usually the people who couldn’t do something anyway who jump to criticism. 

Have a great day. 

JP,

I had a 3kw Solar system that I helped my FIL size for his property that we just inherited and sold. For my house I originally bought a Generac 15kw Propane Nat gas genset which had issues starting the 4 ton A/C. And since we have Village utilities we ran it off its own 250 gallon propane tank. Uuugly!

So when we put in the new house I swapped out the low pressure street regulator with a high pressure one, and installed a low pressure regulator on the house pipe in, and another on our new 25kw Generator as it will draw too much gas and starve the house furnace for gas if they are both on the same regulator. It is a 25 kw Generac natural gas, water cooled 4 cylinder Mitsubishi engine powered system with the auto switch wired direct to the connection between the meter and outside circuit breaker box ten feet away.

I changed because we have never had our gas go out with the power or even the water.

So if you want to go solar fully, you will need, for the average American, about 20-25kw of power.

In that scenario I would have two PowerWalls, and ~20kw of solar. We are moving to Colorado. But instead of getting a house we are getting an apartment (Ugh!) and then house hunt together (with nothing in storage) for the best deal for us even if it takes a year as it will likely be the house we die in. I will be looking for existing solar and we both would love a super insulated foam ball or other underground etc house. We do not want one in a subdivision and not 50 miles in the boonies. We have military facilities in Denver and in Colorado Springs so we will likely buy near either one. And yes we will look in Woodland Hills Jack. We will also have the monies added from selling our current house with the 25kw genny on 5 acres.

I will assume two Powerwalls for our house:

$11,000	2 Powerwalls
$700	Supporting hardware
$11,700	Total equipment cost

Then we will see about the solar 20-25kw system. That would make our home completely self sufficient with only an emergency grid connection, from a tornado ripping out our solar or some such.

to buy our 25kw Generac system with auto switch and installation would cost $9,297 just for the generator and switch, install is another $1000.00 and with miscellaneous (Surge suppressor, two gas regulators, etc.) It comes to about $11k for a conventional whole house generator for emergencies only. 2 PowerWalls are $11,700.

Source: http://apelectric.com/all-generators/liquid-cooled-generators-22-150kw/generac-liquid-cooled-generators/generac-protector-series-generators-25kw-60kw/generac-protector-series-rg02515-25kw-generator/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxbrrlODf2AIV17rACh3D4gEfEAAYASAAEgLNHPD_BwE

Now before you start comparing the wrong costs I am comparing house not RV, so someone can post the costs from a bare RV to get a generator, inverter, batteries, solar system, system controllers etc.

Then figure out several PowerWall systems in an RV with and without generator/solar.

We only boondocked for two weeks at a time, twice in Alaska and BC Canada Provincial parks. That's not counting Walmart and Fred Myers overnights, and truck stop/rest stop overnights, which we did maybe 20 times in seven years full-timing. With water and dump station, we made due with electric only many times and filled dumped every three days with no conservation, or filled water/dumped on the way out.

And since I still have lumbar and cervical issues, less but still after the surgeries I will leave installs to the pros since I can afford to watch now.

So two PowerWalls installed about $11,700.00

25kw Generator and switch running on natural gas, and noisy even to us, is about $11,000.00.

Folks, please don't approach my Tesla car or PowerWall or solar posts as coming from eco or earth friendly. I look at them from a performance and ease of use perspective. I install for lifestyle. For example there is no ROI on my whole house gensets. Just the peace of mind is worth it to us.

With a self sustaining solar PowerWall system folks normally shy away because it is a greenie thing, or because they think in terms of ROI. I have the cash now, so why not? I like the idea of no electricity bills, and may also look into electric heating. We are hoping to find a half finished solar/battery project house cheap. Our minds are open, just not so much our brains fall out.

[RV_]

Glenn,

The PowerWall can go on your back tractor cab wall. It is made for outdoor or indoor installs. However I would box it from wind. I am sure they did not anticipate houses going 55-70mph.

[RV_]

Personally, with the voltages and amps involved, I would not buy any battery pack from a wrecked BEV or PHEV. And GM battery packs already had defective ones from new.

Caveat Emptor applies.

[GlennWest]

Just have to figure out how to charge it. 

[RV_]

On 1/14/2018 at 6:14 PM, Yarome said:

A properly sized 240v could cut that time to just a fraction.. maybe... ~10hrs.

Reinforcing a storage area for half a ton of batteries would require a bit of work.. not to mention the size of generator required. I wouldn't even know HOW to work the weight balancing unless the rig was custom built around the power systems from the ground up.

 

Yarome, the PowerWall weighs 267 pounds. Much lighter than a half ton.

[RV_]

On 1/15/2018 at 6:27 AM, jpcoll01 said:

I hate to use math or “facts” this early in the morning but to get the same capacity he got you would have to buy approximately $35k worth of powerwalls or roughly double the investment that he has in this “ugly mess”.  It’s usually the people who couldn’t do something anyway who jump to criticism. 

Have a great day. 

Yarome had it right, it was not criticism. I am a Tesla investor and did very well buying on IPO and holding until  now. I had been following Musk and Tesla very closely since he sold PayPal. So I have gobbled up every Tesla designs, and then the 2008/9 Roadster, and still no IPO and stock I could buy. 2010 I finally was able to buy Tesla shares.

I am very enthusiastic about Tesla and their other Solar, battery, and PowerWall divisions. I am sorry you took that as criticism. I don't see how you would use that exposed system in a moving vehicle. Or need that much storage.

To add to my posts, I am going to write Elon and suggest they think about the RV market, and make available a Tesla car charger port for it so one could charge the RV PowerWall at select Tesla Supercharger stations that can be pulled through and have a 14 foot or higher overhead. Most of them would not accommodate an RV. But that would make the PowerWall, with the RV system connectors and splitters to charge from the shore power or Supercharger station.

Just brainstorming your topic, using Tesla batteries in an RV. (Or Home)

As for not able to do something, I am buying a Model 3 and will have PowerWall systems in our new home in Colorado. As well as solar. MY son already had a Solar City solar system installed on his house in Denver a couple of years ago. He loves it.

I knew I was getting out of Louisiana as soon as our last two parents passed. We were here for them longer than we expected. Now free to get out of this humidity and heat. I can now afford anything we want from our investments and savings and the proceeds from our two properties here, as well as proceeds from selling all the tractors and equipment. Our retirement is Military and SS which combined are all we need. So no spending affects our retirement security. We do buy houses cash which makes living on under $4k a month. We also buy cars cash too so we only pay electric, gas, sewage, trash, water, and Cable Internet monthly. Total is about $250-$350 a month. We also bought our RVs cash when we full timed.

I had posted the following video here many times 2000-2010. the following video about a combination Solar/Hydrogen production and energy:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=solar+hydrogen+home+MIchael+Strizki&view=detail&mid=29AB70A0955D774301A029AB70A0955D774301A0&FORM=VIRE

Here is what Mike is doing today: http://www.hydrogenhouseproject.org/index.html

Mike changed all his motors from gasoline to hydrogen and the Joule Box could be towed behind an RV or in a house.

I plan on using some of his ideas as well. Imagine the Joule box, a Hydrogen fuel cell, and a Tesla PowerWall or three, and our Model 3 car and later an AWD Tesla pickup.

I would watch all the new videos since last I posted his stuff here. in the above links.

Michael has a lot of solutions for folks that are not cash restricted.

The "preppers" also have lots of alternatives that can be combined with some of the other TEsla PowerWalls etc. like this:

 

However I caution that if any enemy detonates a nuke at the right altitude, they can knock out everything with an EMP that is not in a Faraday cage or deep underground. However there are missile silos and salt mines where equipment can be stored or installed to survive any EMP. Inexpensive Faraday bags and buckets are also available. They are not related to this topic but like the generator and solar system above mentions could be a consideration for RVing.

So planning for power outages like I am doing, and designing for an RV to boondock will still have crossover tech. I do like the new tech available today too.

Here is a full page on Youtube about soalr systems and prices for RVs:

 

[GlennWest]

1 hour ago, RV_ said:

Glenn,

The PowerWall can go on your back tractor cab wall. It is made for outdoor or indoor installs. However I would box it from wind. I am sure they did not anticipate houses going 55-70mph.

Only issue with that is I don't always get to park truck with camper. 

[RV_]

Oh yeah, I forget the truck is transport when parked. Look at the last link above for a priced solar system for $1200, and the side panel has many more RV solar videos. These systems cost much more last time I checked in 21997-2003 when we were RVing full-time. All I can say is Wow!

I am looking for a house but the PowerWall struck me as something I would have bought back when we full timed if they cost then what they cost now.

But everyone reading here and in or about to live in an RV have a lot of options today that are pretty dang inexpensive.

[Al F]

Quote

I can do that with a Relion Lithium 48v 100ah pack.

Even though a 100ah lithium will supply at least 50% more usable AH of 100ah lead acid that is still only 75ah (yes you can go to 80ah or a little more) for the lithium.  Pulling around 100amps of 12VDC through the inverter, with the compressor running, you are looking at about 45 minutes of run time. 

So yes, you can run the a/c.  But at the end of the 45 minutes and the sun is getting low in afternoon, what do you do for the rest of evening for lights, TV, computers, etc.

[RV_]

Al,

Look here and think PowerWall instead of the battery banks and inverter:

I'd never seen that kind of roof mount for that many panels. Awesome sauce!

[RV_]

More:

DIY PowerWall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kXTqNqxK3s

 

Tesla’s Powerwall Home Battery: The Stuff Worth Knowing (critical of ROI but is in line with the facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHswxauDGVg

 

[RV_]

Been fun, and I have a whole new perspective. Thanks for the Tesla battery topic, and the discussion guys!.

[Al F]

28 minutes ago, RV_ said:

Al,

Look here and think PowerWall instead of the battery banks and inverter:

I'd never seen that kind of roof mount for that many panels. Awesome sauce!

Yes, that is where I was going when I replied (many, many replies earlier) that the powerwall sounds like it is about equivalent to 1125ah of battery for a 12V system.  With inverter already being included that is an expense that may be excluded when comparing to the typical RV system. 

The powerwall is an interesting thought. 

There is a lot more thought and research which needs to go into installing a Powerwall.

Are there links to what goes into installing a home powerwall system with solar for charging and being off the grid with possible 120V generator (not 240V) back up? 

On edit: I see you have already given some links.

[Al F]

30 minutes ago, RV_ said:

Al,

Look here and think PowerWall instead of the battery banks and inverter:

I'd never seen that kind of roof mount for that many panels. Awesome sauce!

I really question the installers knowledge of solar, by going with twelve 100watt panels, instead of four 300-350watt residential panels.

I also notice the panels are flat, so water and dirt collects on them.  To top it off, the only way I see to clean them is using a ladder to get up to the panels and then you need to move it quite a few times to get to all the panels. 

I installed a pair of 325 watt 36-38V residential panels on my 29' Class A.  They are sloped a little so water runs off and helps wash some of the dirt off.

My panels have been up there since Jan 2016 (2 years) bouncing around for over 20,000 miles including a trip on the roads to Alaska, including 466 miles, round trip, of gravel/dirt/pot holes on the Dalton Hwy (the haul road for the Alaska Pipeline).  The are doing just fine with all the travel stress.  We boondock a lot. So it is common for us to drive a 1-3 miles to 15 miles on gravel to get to where we want to be. 

I added the info about travel with residential panels as from time to time I see comments like: "Will residential panels take the stress of being on an RV?"

[Kirk W]

Precision RV specializes in designing custom solar power systems for our customers.

Not evan a hint about what this cost the customer.... 

[RV_]

Al

Thanks for the info on residential doing fine on an RV. Good stuff.

And yes, I see that with personal experience many of the videos can be done better. That one was Precision RV that Kirk mentioned again after I posted it.

However a side benefit is that the solar panels act as a double roof decreasing the amount of heat from the sun on the roof material be that Fiberglass or rubber roofing. Less sun on the roof also reduces deterioration of the roofing itself.

[RV_]

Why KIrk, thanks for reiterating Precision RV who made my last linked video ^^^^^.

 

[noteven]

What Scrap said ^ up there. I read the 2019 RAM 1500 pickup will have a 48volt hybrid generator and lithium that can add power to the crank pulley as well as provide regenerative braking. It also has 12 volt stuff on board. 

It must have the unilateral phase detractor Glenn need. It was patented by Rockwell International Rockwell

[Yarome]

13 hours ago, RV_ said:

Yarome, the PowerWall weighs 267 pounds. Much lighter than a half ton.

Quite, RV_. That comment was PRE powerwall discussion and related to the model s pack that was being discussed at the time. 

[RV_]

Noteven,

Were we over your head? Now that's funny, I don't care who you are!

[Al F]

13 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

Precision RV specializes in designing custom solar power systems for our customers.

Not evan a hint about what this cost the customer.... 

If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it!

My guesstimate with inverter, charge controllers, cables, miscellaneous parts & labor.  $25,000 to $30,000

Here is a break down of batteries & solar panels not including inverter, charge controllers, cabling, labor, etc

--  2 sets of 200AH lithium batteries, three batteries packaged to make a 600AH set @ $5400 each.  Total $10,800 plus shipping.  From Starlight Solar in Yuma:  http://www.lithiumrvbattery.com/Lithium_RV_Battery/GBS_200AH_Cells.html 

--  12 solar panels at 100AH each: $135 each  Total $1620 plus shipping or slightly better panels @ $240 each total $2880.  Both from AM Solar  https://amsolar.com/rv-solar-panel-kit/panel-kits

Those components alone come to about $12,400 to $13,700

 

 

[Yarome]

It's actually a 2000watt 1200ah system.

Using Al's sourced info:
3x 400ah packs @ 3764.60 = 11,293.80 (Likely more in the 10k range considering price breaks) 
20x 100watt @ 240/ea =  (Be out of your mind sinking that many bones into a package like and not go with anything other than the high efficiency's)
3x BS controllers = 850
Magnum 3000w hybrid = 2k
Panel custom build rack system/remote's/monitors/sensors/cables/wiring/fusing/switches... call it 2500 (Easily).

~$20k of gear... not including any shipping or hazmat freight charges.

My guess would be more in the $30-$35k range. Run cost over the life of the system... ~$8.00/day. Beats the capital "H" outta CG fees.