OT: Help?

[SuiteSuccess]

I move my boat trailer around with my tractor at home.  It has electric brakes but when not plugged in acts like surge brakes.  To back it, have to put a plug in the tongue to keep the brakes from locking.  I want to wire a blade plug on the tractor to not have to use the plug.  Any ideas?  I don’t need lights so some of the wires won’t be necessary.

Tractor bucket with hitch ball.

 

Tongue plug to prevent brakes locking.

Edited May 15, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[rpsinc]

Could that be a surge brake setup like what is found on many rental trailers??

Could disable it by putting something in there to prevent the mechanism from sliding.  I imagine that it is more problematic when backing.

[Lou Schneider]

Marcel is right - your trailer has a surge brake that applies the trailer brakes whenever the tongue presses against the tow vehicle.   It's purely mechanical, no electronics are involved.  The plug is strictly for the trailer lights.

The trailer is probably light enough you don't notice the brakes applying when you back up in your truck.

The answer is to block the movement of the acutating arm if you don't want the brakes to apply.

[SuiteSuccess]

1 hour ago, rpsinc said:

Could that be a surge brake setup like what is found on many rental trailers??

Could disable it by putting something in there to prevent the mechanism from sliding.  I imagine that it is more problematic when backing.

No I definitely have both electrical and surge brakes on this trailer.  I’ve had both wheels jacked off the ground while hitched to truck and plugged in.  Spun the wheels and had wife hit brakes in truck and they applied on trailer.  Unplugged, spin wheels, hit the brakes, they keep spinning.

45 minutes ago, Lou Schneider said:

Marcel is right - your trailer has a surge brake that applies the trailer brakes whenever the tongue presses against the tow vehicle.   It's purely mechanical, no electronics are involved.  The plug is strictly for the trailer lights.

The trailer is probably light enough you don't notice the brakes applying when you back up in your truck.

The answer is to block the movement of the acutating arm if you don't want the brakes to apply.

The second picture shows the plug that is inserted in the tongue to block the surge brake.  I’ve been using that going on ten years.  However, there is some type of mechanism that comes into play when an electrical charge is applied i.e. the blade is plugged in, that prevents the surge from activating.  That’s why I want a plug on my tractor to supply current to activate that mechanism so I don’t have to continually use that mechanical plug.  I’ve proven the above by unplugging from my truck and backing then the surge comes into play and the brakes lock, tires will not rotate..  Plug back in, they unlock and tires rotate.

Edited May 15, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[Randyretired]

The surge brakes on my boat trailer can use the power from the backup lights to activate a solenoid to keep the surge brakes from activating.   It also has a turn out on the side of the frame to keep the brakes off when turned.  If there is a backup solenoid it just needs 12v and ground.  If it has the turn out that might be easier.

[SuiteSuccess]

4 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

The surge brakes on my boat trailer can use the power from the backup lights to activate a solenoid to keep the surge brakes from activating.   It also has a turn out on the side of the frame to keep the brakes off when turned.  If there is a backup solenoid it just needs 12v and ground.  If it has the turn out that might be easier.

Mine seems to be the same.  Must profess ignorance, what is a turnout?

[rpsinc]

Thats a new one for me.  Keep going, sounds like I am going to learn something new here.  It will be a good day!

[Randyretired]

16 minutes ago, SuiteSuccess said:

Mine seems to be the same.  Must profess ignorance, what is a turnout?

On my boat  hitch there is a knob that sticks out.  It is flat about the size if a half dollar with a little piece sticking up to use your thumb and finger to turn it.  When you turn it the brakes can't  operate.  It must have a cam that works like the stick you use.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Randyretired
Clarity

[Randyretired]

My boat is heavy enough it would be very difficult to back with the brakes activated without the override.  Both the electric override or the manual override must be activated before the slide on the hitch moves back or it won't work.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Randyretired
Clarity

[SuiteSuccess]

19 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

My boat is heavy enough it would be very difficult to back with the brakes activated without the override.

Mines the same.

Edited May 15, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[SuiteSuccess]

21 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

On my boat there is a knob that sticks out.  It is flat about the size if a half dollar with a little piece sticking up to use your thumb and finger to turn it.  When you turn it the brakes can't  operate.  It must have a cam that works like the stick you use.

Come to think of it I’ve got something on top of the tongue that may do the same. Going to go check that out.

[SuiteSuccess]

In thinking about it a boat trailer would have both types simply for the fact if it did come unhitched and break away there would be no power to apply electrical brakes like on our 5ers which have batteries.  As the tongue dug in it would cause the surge brake to activate locking the wheels.

[Lou Schneider]

15 minutes ago, SuiteSuccess said:

In thinking about it a boat trailer would have both types simply for the fact if it did come unhitched and break away there would be no power to apply electrical brakes like on our 5ers which have batteries.  As the tongue dug in it would cause the surge brake to activate locking the wheels.

Unless the trailer comes loose while you're backing down a boat ramp.  Then the trailer goes into the drink unless the relay sets the brakes when the electrical cable pulls apart.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Lou Schneider

[Lou Schneider]

Your picture shows 4 wires going to the electrical connector.  Normally they're Tail Lights, Left Turn and Brake lights, and Right Turn and Brake lights.

The white wire going to the opposite polarity socket is usually ground, but it may be used to take 12 volts to the brake hold off relay with ground returning through the hitch.

Get a 12 volt battery, attach the negative side to ground and take +12 volts to each of the connector pins and see what happens.  Be prepared for a large spark if the white wire is actually ground.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Lou Schneider

[SuiteSuccess]

28 minutes ago, Lou Schneider said:

Unless the trailer comes loose while you're backing down a boat ramp.  Then the trailer goes into the drink unless the relay sets the brakes when the electrical cable pulls apart.

Haha, correct.  That’s why chains had better be connected.
 

23 minutes ago, Lou Schneider said:

Your picture shows 4 wires going to the electrical connector.  Normally they're Tail Lights, Left Turn and Brake lights, and Right Turn and Brake lights.

The white wire going to the opposite polarity socket is usually ground, but it may be used to take 12 volts to the brake hold off relay with ground returning through the hitch.

Get a 12 volt battery, attach the negative side to ground and take +12 volts to each of the connector pins and see what happens.  Be prepared for a large spark if the white wire is actually ground.

Thanks Lou.  That’s what I’ll try.  Just went out to look again at the trailer.  The white wire is grounded to the trailer itself by a bolt. I could look into the tongue and there is a hydraulic cylinder there with an oil fill on top of the tongue.  This is for the disc brakes. The blue wire connected into the disc brake actuator I believe.  So trial and error.  Hopefully no errors.

Lou, here’s the conundrum.  My plug is a 5 plug blade but if you look there are 6 wires. Blue, green, yellow, black, black, white.  It looks like the white and 2nd black are both bonded in the shielded ground port.  I’m not savy enough to know what that might mean.

Edited May 15, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[DesertMiner]

 

[DesertMiner]

Blue wire..... usually releases backup solenoid.

[SuiteSuccess]

11 minutes ago, DesertMiner said:

 

Thanks DM.  That’s what I have been using but I was taping it in place.  All the gunk on the tongue of my trailer.  I like his solution.

[Randyretired]

Backing down a ramp will not make the slide mechanism on the tongue activate to engage the brakes.  The tongue moves forward during braking by the weight of the trailer to engage the brakes.  The lockout either manual or electric just stops the actuator from moving by the weight of the trailer.  The actual braking is mechanical / hydraulic.   My boat has a cable that attaches to the tow vehicle that pulls during failure disconnect that slides the  actuator and locks the brakes as it breaks away.  Since SuiteSuccess's works on the tow vehicle the solenoid on the boat is a likely activated by the backup lights wired to the trailer plug.  Test the plug to see which wire is hot when the tow vehicle is in reverse.

[SuiteSuccess]

Thanks Randy and I have that cable (breakaway) also on my trailer .

Thanks for the help everyone.

[Lou Schneider]

A funny story ... some years back I was taking care of mountaintop transmitter sites and we bought a 25 Kw diesel genset to install at one of the sites.   The contractor we hired to install the generator said he'd take it up there on his flatbed equipment trailer behind his Ford 4x4 pickup.

This happened while I was on vacation, and when I got back I found the generator and trailer abandoned in a creekbed at the bottom of a 2000 ft. canyon.  The road to the site goes up to the top of the mountain, then descends about 100 ft. to the transmitter site before becoming a narrow trail and continuing down the other side of the mountain to the creek.

Turns out the contractor overshot the turn into the parking area and tried to back uphill, to no avail.  Having no other choice he continued driving down the road until the trailer got stuck in the dry creekbed.

We took a Caterpillar down to the creek, chained the trailer to it and hauled the trailer and generator back up the mountain.

When we got to the top I showed him how to lockout the surge brake on the trailer before trying to back up.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Lou Schneider

[Randyretired]

11 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

A funny story ... some years back I was taking care of mountaintop transmitter sites and we bought a 25 Kw diesel genset to install at one of the sites.   The contractor we hired to install the generator said he'd take it up there on his flatbed equipment trailer behind his Ford 4x4 pickup.

This happened while I was on vacation, and when I got back I found the generator and trailer abandoned in a creekbed at the bottom of a 2000 ft. canyon.  The road to the site goes up to the top of the mountain, then descends about 100 ft. to the transmitter site before becoming a narrow trail and continuing down the other side of the mountain to the creek.

Turns out the contractor overshot the turn into the parking area and tried to back uphill, to no avail.  Having no other choice he continued driving down the road until the trailer got stuck in the dry creekbed.

We took a Caterpillar down to the creek, chained the trailer to it and hauled the trailer and generator back up the mountain.

When we got to the top I showed him how to lockout the surge brake on the trailer before trying to back up.

Fighting surge brakes can be very trying until one figures out all of the little things.  When I first brought our new boat home I had a place in the garage ready for it.  However, when I tried to back up the incline into the garage it wouldn't go.  I couldn't figure out what to do.  Frustrated and tired I left it outside and spent the evening reading.  A turn of a little knob made all the difference.   Then I read that using the power for backup lights and it automatically locked the brakes out.  Since I like to disconnect the boat trailer lights when launching I have 2 plugs on my trailer so that the brake lockout still works without the trailer lights.  Once I learned to live with surge brakes they aren't as bad as I called them  (??***$) that first evening.

[rickeieio]

I have only owned one trailer with surge brakes, an Apache Cimarron pop-up.  It was heavy, about 3500# loaded (over loaded?).  I pulled it with a '78 F-250 4wd Supercab.  I bought the trailer on a Sunday, and we left for Colorado on Thursday.  I knew the brakes were "iffy", but hey, I gots me a big truck.  Well,  I had both feet on the brake pedal going down Wolf Creek Pass west bound.  Wife and kids had no clue how dire the situation was at that moment.  After that, I shifted to 4 wheel low at the top of every pass.

Back to the original topic, Carl and I chatted yesterday about his situation.  First thing I asked was whether his tractor had an electrical plug on back.  No, it's an older model.  Well duh....buy a new tractor.  Apparently Carl had me on speaker, because Donna chimed in about some things she wanted if a new tractor joined the family.  So, after more chit chat, it dawned on me that a magnet could hold that "block" or "plug" in place while maneuvering.  That said, I like the zip ties in the video.

[Randyretired]

Our boat weighs about 3500 to 4000 and the surge / disc brakes have worked well.  We pull it with an F250 and have covered a lot of miles.  We live in Colorado and I can't think of a pass we haven't been over and we have been in a number of states as well.  I was skeptical at first after the negative reviews but I am happy with it.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Randyretired

[SuiteSuccess]

4 hours ago, rickeieio said:

I have only owned one trailer with surge brakes, an Apache Cimarron pop-up.  It was heavy, about 3500# loaded (over loaded?).  I pulled it with a '78 F-250 4wd Supercab.  I bought the trailer on a Sunday, and we left for Colorado on Thursday.  I knew the brakes were "iffy", but hey, I gots me a big truck.  Well,  I had both feet on the brake pedal going down Wolf Creek Pass west bound.  Wife and kids had no clue how dire the situation was at that moment.  After that, I shifted to 4 wheel low at the top of every pass.

Back to the original topic, Carl and I chatted yesterday about his situation.  First thing I asked was whether his tractor had an electrical plug on back.  No, it's an older model.  Well duh....buy a new tractor.  Apparently Carl had me on speaker, because Donna chimed in about some things she wanted if a new tractor joined the family.  So, after more chit chat, it dawned on me that a magnet could hold that "block" or "plug" in place while maneuvering.  That said, I like the zip ties in the video.

Rick, 

I borrowed one of Donna’s sewing magnets and it would work but if I keep it she will charge me for some new sewing gadget that will be three times the price of the magnet. Sigh!  Think I’ll try the zip ties. I already own them, lol.