How much weight are you carry

[FastEagle]

When reading and quoting FMVSS regulations it is best to remember that those regulations are directed to the vehicle manufacturer. They are not intended to be applied by the public at large.

 

Other out of context statements in 571.120 directs the vehicle manufacturer to select the "appropriate" tires for each certified GAWR. The vehicle manufacturer is also directed to set the recommended tire inflation pressures for those tires which, in fact, sets the appropriate load capacity.

 

Another minimum standard is also set with 571.120. The trailer manufacturer's published hitch/pin weight when added to the total certified GAWR value (s) MUST equal or exceed the trailer's GVWR. Thereafter the hitch/pin weights are the responsibility of the vehicle owner.

 

FastEagle

 

p.s. This is, in part, a statement from NHTSA about FMVSS regulations: Standards (FMVSS) and Regulations to which manufacturers of motor vehicle and equipment items must conform and certify compliance.

[alan0043]

Thanks Al

This is a little complicated to explain but the jest is that it would be a good thought to consider going to 17.5 inch tires in this instance.

This trailer should have 17.5" tires with a capacity of 4805 lbs. per tire installed to properly cover the GAWR.

The current tires have a capacity of 7500 lbs. per axle and since the tires are a component of the axle assembly this component is not sufficient (-500 lbs.) to carry the assigned Weight Rating of 8000 lbs.

 

It is impossibe to know for sure if there is a real problem unless weights are measured, but it is very possible that these current tires were near or exceeding their capacity.

 

The blow outs may have been from old tires but knowing these facts also makes it suspicious that weight might have been a significant contributing factor.

 

No matter what the cause of the blowouts, the best thing to make the Trailer compliant with the rating would be to install 17.5" (215/75R75) with a single max load of 4805 lbs. This should also give good peace of mind and let you enjoy RVing.

 

Hi Trey,

 

Thank You for your help. I hope some day to have the truck and trailer weighted. The trailer is not going anywhere till I can get the wheels and tires changed over to 17.5". I was very lucky to get home safely. I had a co-pilot that was working over time.

 

I can give someone a good deal on some used 16" aluminum wheels that also have two new tires. The other two wheels still have a old tires still mounted on them. That is a total of 4 wheels. I am located in Ohio.

 

Thank you again for your help,

Al

[earlvillestu]

Am I correct that based on Al's label information, New Horizons built a trailer and put undersized tires on it?

[TreyandSusan]

Am I correct that based on Al's label information, New Horizons built a trailer and put undersized tires on it?

 

Not necessarily. The issue is with the label.

 

The tires were the limiting factor of the axle assembly making the GAWR 7500 lbs. The label should have read GAWR 7500 lbs., which may be sufficient.

 

If they would have put 17.5" tires (it was 2007 - not sure if that was a consideration), then the GAWR would have been 8000 lbs..

 

The good news in this case is that the other axle components are capable of 8000 lbs.

Therefore, adding the 17.5" tires will greatly increase the safety by providing more reserve capacity and will properly cover the printed axle weight rating on the label.

Also, there are more purchasing options in the 17.5" tire size than the LT235/85R16. The only downside is that new rims will need to be purchased, so that is an extra cost.

 

This issue with labeling certification still happens today with other manufacturers. While not frequent, it does happen, especially when there are more options for axle components.

[alan0043]

 

Not necessarily. The issue is with the label.

 

The tires were the limiting factor of the axle assembly making the GAWR 7500 lbs. The label should have read GAWR 7500 lbs., which may be sufficient.

 

If they would have put 17.5" tires (it was 2007 - not sure if that was a consideration), then the GAWR would have been 8000 lbs..

 

The good news in this case is that the other axle components are capable of 8000 lbs.

Therefore, adding the 17.5" tires will greatly increase the safety by providing more reserve capacity and will properly cover the printed axle weight rating on the label.

Also, there are more purchasing options in the 17.5" tire size than the LT235/85R16. The only downside is that new rims will need to be purchased, so that is an extra cost.

 

This issue with labeling certification still happens today with other manufacturers. While not frequent, it does happen, especially when there are more options for axle components.

 

Trey,

 

Very nicely said. Thank you again for your help,

Al

[earlvillestu]

Okay, but with A GVWR of 18,750, assuming that the axles will not be expected to carry more than 15,000 pounds (exactly 80% of GVWR) seems to me to be cutting it very, very close - especially for a premium priced trailer.

[FastEagle]

Am I correct that based on Al's label information, New Horizons built a trailer and put undersized tires on it?

It all depends on what the trailer manufacturer put on the certification label. If the trailer manufacturer has in fact listed the trailer's GAWR (s) as 8000# and have listed the OE tires as being LT235/85R16G they are in serious violation of FMVSS regulations. It's very serious to violate manufacturing safety directives. Big bucks and recalls are in order if they are caught doing that. If they catch it themselves they can call the recall on themselves and fix the problem without NHTSA intervention.

 

FastEagle

[jjwicklund]

It all depends on what the trailer manufacturer put on the certification label. If the trailer manufacturer has in fact listed the trailer's GAWR (s) as 8000# and have listed the OE tires as being LT235/85R16G they are in serious violation of FMVSS regulations. It's very serious to violate manufacturing safety directives. Big bucks and recalls are in order if they are caught doing that. If they catch it themselves they can call the recall on themselves and fix the problem without NHTSA intervention.

 

FastEagle

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't many pickup trucks built with the same GAWR but with different tires which limit their GVW?

[Phil D]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't many pickup trucks built with the same GAWR but with different tires which limit their GVW?

 

They can be built with the same axles, but the labeled ratings must match the limiting factor. If the tires mounted on the axle, or the suspension upon which the axle is installed, is rated for less weight than is the axle, then the labeled GAWR must match the rating of the components with the lowest capacity.

 

As Trey pointed out, had the GAWR on the label of the trailer that we're discussing been the sum of the tires' maximum capacity, rather than the capacity of the axle itself, it would have been properly labeled. Another example would be if the purchaser of a single axle HDT had a reason to prefer that the truck be classified as a Class 7 (26,001 - 33,000 lbs.) rather than a Class 8 (33,001 lbs. & above), even though the truck would likely have the common 12,000# front axle and 23,000# rear axle, for a total axle capacity of 35,000#, it could be specified with a 21k rear suspension, which would make the labeled RAWR 21,000# instead of 23,000#, and result in the truck being labeled with the desired 33,000# GVWR.

[Tireman9]

I agree with FastEagle. If the tires are rated for 7500# at the Placard Inflation AND the Placard says *8000 GAWR" Then a recall is in order. Can you capture a picture of your load, tire GAWR label? I can help walk you through the process of filing a complaint with NHTSA. In this case it doesn't take numbers of complaints for a recall to be ordered. A single incorrect label is sufficient based on my prior experience of working with NHTSA engineers.

[Tireman9]

Okay, but with A GVWR of 18,750, assuming that the axles will not be expected to carry more than 15,000 pounds (exactly 80% of GVWR) seems to me to be cutting it very, very close - especially for a premium priced trailer.

 

 

Lets not confuse GVWR and the sum of the GAWRs or tire ratings You have to look at the individual component ratings as assigned by the vehicle assembler.

 

FE will confirm

The total tire load capacity on each axle needs to be equal to or less than the GAWR.

 

I think it is also possible for the GVWR of a trailer to exceed the sum of the GAWRs as the extra load is assumed to be on the hitch/pin

 

 

Again a picture of the certification label would help this discussion a lot.

 

I think its possible that you made an assumption that the RV assembler built some extra quality or extra margin in the specs because he charges more for the RV. In my experience the vast majority of RV assemblers do and spec the absolute minimum required by law.

 

The are selling the "Bling" not the load capacity. Have you ever heard a sales person start off by talking about tires or axle loads on an RV? No they point out the nice fabrics, mirrors and lights i.e. Bling.

[alan0043]

Yesterday I took a picture or two of the trailer tags. I have reservation weather to post the pictures or not. I do not want to cause any problems for the trailer manufacturer. I do not know if a recall would be needed or do any good. The engineers probably calculated the ratings very closely to each component. It would have been nice to see the trailer have 17.5" wheel installed from day one. Only the manufacturer knows the reason for putting on 16" wheels. The rating on the tires seems to be at the top of what the tire can carry if you use 80% of 18,750 lbs. (GVWR) will equal 15,000 lbs. With four tires times 3,750 lbs. (the rating on the tire) will equal 15,000 lbs. A recall could take years to resolve even if it gets resolved.

 

Al

[Mark and Dale Bruss]

You can play the game of looking at the Rating Placard for a trailer. Many trailer manufactures do. Teton used to deliver their trailers with D rated tires which covered the delivery weight.

 

It is your trailer. Weight it, by wheel to get tire loads. The heaviest loaded tire sets the minimum tire rating you need for all your tires.

 

I take an easier route. I take the GWR of the trailer and divide by the number of tires. That is my minimum tire rating needed.

 

The pin weight is part of my safety margin. There will be times when the weight of be trailer will be on less then all of the tires.

 

Yes I am buying more expensive tires but everything I own is out there in the trailer. And in a bad enough tire failure, the truck could be lost too.

[grumpydoc]

We had one of those Tetons with D range tires and suffered through several tire failures. Eventually weighed the rig and found it was 24K and several tires were at or over max. Went to 17.5s and H range GY G 114s and solved the problem. Best Wishes, Jay

[Jack Mayer]

I do exactly what Mark does.

 

As he said, it is your trailer. Weigh it and put on what you think is necessary. Only you know what you have in it.... There is plenty of advice here about how to do things. I'd put on 17.5 wheels.tires if you are exceeding your current limits. Actually, I'd put on 17.5 and G114s regardless....just for peace of mind. But that is just me....

[Tireman9]

Yesterday I took a picture or two of the trailer tags. I have reservation weather to post the pictures or not. I do not want to cause any problems for the trailer manufacturer. I do not know if a recall would be needed or do any good. The engineers probably calculated the ratings very closely to each component. It would have been nice to see the trailer have 17.5" wheel installed from day one. Only the manufacturer knows the reason for putting on 16" wheels. The rating on the tires seems to be at the top of what the tire can carry if you use 80% of 18,750 lbs. (GVWR) will equal 15,000 lbs. With four tires times 3,750 lbs. (the rating on the tire) will equal 15,000 lbs. A recall could take years to resolve even if it gets resolved.

 

Al

 

Vehicle manufacturers are required to provide factual and accurate information to prospective buyers as well as owners of their product. The laws were writtent to protect the safety of consumers.

 

I was suggesting you post pictures of the placard to help those who understand the regulations to have a clear picture of the information being provided by the vehicle mfg.

 

I doubt that the MFG wants to intensionally mislead consumers or compromise their safety. if there is an error it is entirely possible and even probable that it was a simple mistake that can easily be corrected.

 

RE it taking years. In the case of incorrect information on a tire Placard I have never heard of a case of there being long protracted hearings. The question of what the spec sheet says is clear. The math is not up for debate. The sticker either is is correct and based on accurate math or it isn't correct and needs to be changed. It is my experience that as soon as evidence (picture) is made available to NHTSA they will confirm with the MFG the number of affected vehicles and in a matter of a few days corrective action will be taken by the MFG.

 

If you don't want to publish the picture here you can email me a copy. My email address is on my blog under my picture. I will not publish the picture but simply review the information and post my conclusion of if I feel the information meets the regfulations or not on this thread.

[alan0043]

 

Vehicle manufacturers are required to provide factual and accurate information to prospective buyers as well as owners of their product. The laws were writtent to protect the safety of consumers.

 

I was suggesting you post pictures of the placard to help those who understand the regulations to have a clear picture of the information being provided by the vehicle mfg.

 

I doubt that the MFG wants to intensionally mislead consumers or compromise their safety. if there is an error it is entirely possible and even probable that it was a simple mistake that can easily be corrected.

 

RE it taking years. In the case of incorrect information on a tire Placard I have never heard of a case of there being long protracted hearings. The question of what the spec sheet says is clear. The math is not up for debate. The sticker either is is correct and based on accurate math or it isn't correct and needs to be changed. It is my experience that as soon as evidence (picture) is made available to NHTSA they will confirm with the MFG the number of affected vehicles and in a matter of a few days corrective action will be taken by the MFG.

 

If you don't want to publish the picture here you can email me a copy. My email address is on my blog under my picture. I will not publish the picture but simply review the information and post my conclusion of if I feel the information meets the regfulations or not on this thread.

 

Hello Roger,

 

I have had no luck in finding your e-mail address. I went to your blog and looked for your picture with no luck. Is it possible to p/m me with your e-mail address. That way I send you a picture or two of the trailer stickers.

 

Thank you for your help,

Al

[Darryl&Rita]

Off his blog: Tireman9@GMail.com

[Tireman9]

Well Al the Bad News is that your RV assembler made a couple mistakes.

 

1. They didn't properly identify the tire size on the vehicle certification label (no tire type prefix "LT")

this is relatively minor but clearly could confuse all owners as there does not appear to be a "235/85R16G" available for sale in the US

 

2. They also improperly identified that the Goodyear LT235/85R16 LR-G tires could carry 4,000# at 110 psi when Goodyear only rates this size at 3,750

 

NHTSA FAQ requirements

 

Now the Good news (trying to put a positive spin on things) is that I am more than willing to help you file an official NHTSA VOQ (vehicle owner question or complaint)

There are many RV owners that complain about the relative poor quality of the tires supplied on RVs but few have bothered to take concrete action and file an actionable complaint.

 

I will assist you so you can file an actionable complaint which should result in concrete action being taken by the RV assembler as they are responsible to take corrective action. I do not know what the final action will be as there are a number of options available. IMO you could even make a case for the RV Co replacing your tires with a size that has the 4,000# load capacity they identified on the unit.

[Tireman9]

The Federal Certification Label should have been outside somewhere on the front Driver side. On the nose or near propane compartment or pinbox

The inside sticker is usually the cargo carrying capacity sticker.

If there is a federal certification label outside what are the numbers on this sticker? Same or different?

 

What year model is the trailer?

What is the tire size indicated on the sticker AND what is the tire size from the sidewall of the tire, if different?

215/75R17.5 or something like LT235/85R16

From the sidewall of the tire what is the max load single and dual with associated psi?

What is the tire brand and model?

Rules for size, information and placement of the "Placard" changed in 2008 or 9 Forgot exact date. Current RVs have info near driver position in Motorhomes and trailers on front of left side exterior.

[Tireman9]

Am I correct that based on Al's label information, New Horizons built a trailer and put undersized tires on it?

 

IMO they either put under size (load capacity) tires on the RV or overstated the GAWR. There is nothing in the standards about the capacity of individual components of the suspension other than the tires. In other words the springs, bolts, axle, mounts, wheels and any other individual components must be able to carry the 8,000# load as identified in the certification lable. Bolts may be stronger, springs may be stronger, wheels may be stronger and axle may be stronger etc but NO COMPONENT may have a lower capacity.

 

IMO the certification lable is part of the advertising specifications and as such must be factual. Would you be satisfied if the specs for your RV said 50gal water capacity but only had 30 gal?

[FastEagle]

Lets look at a current federal certification label. It is pasted to the LH forward external section of the trailer. Many of the different manufacturers I observed at this particular RV show have chosen to paste the tire and load information placard right below the certification label.

 

http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=22027

 

The above certification label and tire and load information placards are correct in all ways. The tire information is deceptive but both ends of the deception are within the bounds of the tire fitment regulations. The deception is the tire size. ST235/80R16E tires are manufacture in three distinct load capacities. 3420#, 3500# and 3520#, all at 80 psi.

 

Vehicle certification is necessary for all RV trailer manufacturers. Providing certification labels with incorrect information is a violation of the DOT safety regulations. Violators are subject to a penalty of up to $6,000.00 for a single violation or up to $16,375.00 for a series of related violations.

Incomplete or inaccurate certification labels are cause for recall action. Normally the vehicle manufacturer will initiate such a recall if they are informed of the error.

 

Errors with certification labels are almost always obvious. Just take a picture of your certification label, write a description describing what you believe to be in error and send the note and picture to the trailer’s manufacturer. If they determine that the error is just a typographical error and only impacts your unit they will most likely send a corrected label to your dealer to change out with the one in error. If they determine the error impacts a model series of trailers they will inform NHTSA of the error and initiate a recall action.

 

FastEagle

[FastEagle]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't many pickup trucks built with the same GAWR but with different tires which limit their GVW?

You should not compare tire fitments for the automotive industry to tire fitments for the RV trailer industry. The rules are different.

 

FastEagle

[FastEagle]

Let's say an axle manufacturer builds and certifies an axle to be capable of 6000#. Now a RV trailer manufacturer decides to fit that axle to a trailer that only requires a 5500# GAWR. The RV trailer manufacturer is given the authority to set GAWR. So, the 6000# axle is de-rated to 5500# and fitted with tires/rims appropriate for the 5500#. The de-rating action did not change the axle's 6000# capability but it does impact tire and rim fitments.

 

READ your trailer's certification label. Tire fitments for RV trailers are for the certified GAWR, NOT the axle manufacturer's spec tag.

 

FastEagle

[earlvillestu]

As a Newby trying to understand this stuff, I'd like to give shout outs to tireman and Fast Eagle for their clear and comprehensive explanations. Thank you!