30-Amp Power Mystery

[oldjohnt]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:33 PM, GeorgiaHybrid said:

Until that BASIC test is done, you are just shooting in the dark here. Either that or borrow a gen set.

Either way, he needs to get that basic step out of the way before anyone can help him.

 AMEN Georgia we all agree that he needs to isolate the pedestal (Load Test or use a Generator or different pedestal) as being the problem or not. If its okay (for example it passes a load test) then it's an RV problem (cord, plug, receptacle, splice, junction, wire not connected, or connected at wrong place or Surge Protector)

PS Yo Jim, just for the heck of it, try it when NOT USING your Surge Protector !!!!!

 John T 

Edited February 28, 2022 by oldjohnt

[jesfl45]

 

Good morning, everyone,

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! I continue to be hopeful and thankful for all of your education and troubleshooting suggestions.

Today is a medical day, so little more happens.

Tomorrow I am resolved to moving to a different lot at this RV park, since there is no other way to connect to a different power pedestal. (FYI, Park manager, at this mostly mobile homes park, reported he found no one who had a portable generator. Several Class A's had built in's, but that doesn't help.

Late yesterday afternoon, I took apart all 3 connectors I've wired to check once again, for the umpty-umpth time. All three were correctly connected, as I knew. But I trimmed and re-stripped the wire ends and tightened them down. Reconnected to pedestal. same result. (Do I really need to buy a torque screwdriver for tightening electrical screws, as some articles I've read suggests?)

I also emailed Progressive Industries again about the surge protector, specifically why the green-blue testing lights went off when load was applied in one of the previous load tests. 

I did try powering up without the surge protector once before, but, you're right, I need to do that again. I haven't done so for as few days. So, late today. 

If that doesn't magically change anything, I'll report after I move to a new lot/pedestal and try AC power again.

My gratitude continues to be overwhelming.

Thank you, once more.

Jim (jesfl45)

[oldjohnt]

58 minutes ago, jesfl45 said:

Tomorrow I am resolved to moving to a different lot at this RV park, since there is no other way to connect to a different power pedestal.

Good idea Jim, if there's still a problem there aren't all that many places to check in your RV wiring system. Hang in there, you got this................Thanks for the updates...... 

John T

[Kirk W]

1 hour ago, jesfl45 said:

Tomorrow I am resolved to moving to a different lot at this RV park, since there is no other way to connect to a different power pedestal.

We will all be waiting to hear the result of that move. I'll not predict the outcome but for you I'll hope that makes all of your problems disappear.   😊

[oldjohnt]

On 2/28/2022 at 8:45 AM, Kirk W said:

I'll not predict the outcome

Geeeeeee Kirk take a chance "giggle"  (Hey I know electricity can kill so don't take any chances).....I'm fun loving and willing to go out on a limb, it won't be the first nor last time I guessed wrong,,,,,,,,, not being there I can't know anything for certain so there's no shame if I guess wrong,,,,,,,So I figure (1)  Ifffffffff (NOTE that big IF) his pedestal load test was accurate in which case he powered a 1500 Watt Heat Gun via the pedestal (same leg for adequate time for heating) and voltage didn't drop drastically,,,, and (2) Given all works if the Inverter feeds the WFCO,,,,, and (3) Given his claim there was no power at any of the branch breakers,,,,, and (4) Given this happened AFTER an overheating condition and he performed some wiring modifications: THERES A CHANCE A DIFFERENT PEDESTAL won't work either, cuz its his RV wiring or one of the cords or wires is bad or open or not in the right place or there's a bad/loose/resistive splice or connection. But sureeeeee I hope for him the pedestal was the problem as that's soooooooooo much easier than finding any RV wiring problem...........

PS if his pedestal load test wasn't valid or accurate (actual 1500 Watts was delivered into working load) nor lasted for a sufficient time ALL BETS ARE OFF and the pedestal may indeed be bad. If it OR ITS UPSTREAM WIRING has a bad/loose/resistive connection after X time it can heat up, go bad, cause a voltage drop and the RV DON'T WORK GRRRRRRRRRRRR  

Good luck Jim I hope it was a bad pedestal....    

John T

Edited March 2, 2022 by oldjohnt

[jesfl45]

 

Good afternoon gents, 

I was supposed to move to new RV park lot site yesterday (Tuesday), but the people there didn't vacate.  They say they'll be gone before dark tonight. As that approaches, it seems unlikely today, again. So, waiting, impatiently.

Heard back from the Progressive Industries tech people about the surge protector I plugged into and tested load through. The short version of their "two possibilities" for the indicator/test lights going off in the surge protector (under load) were: (1) the power through the surge protector was so low for a (nano) second that the indicator lights turned off and did not recycle when the power was back full, or (2) there are defective LED's in the unit (which they will gladly fix under warranty if that is the problem. Since the lights came back on after the load test, to me neither seems to make sense. Oh, well.

Received and installed the new main 30A/15A 2-pole breaker today while waiting to move. While I have no idea whether that is a factor, I feel better safer with the new one installed after seeing all the rust on the 19 year old breaker.

And, I want to say thank you again.

While I've been ruminating the past couple of days, I'm realizing the full depth and breadth of the electrical information everyone so helpfully and graciously provided. While I'm a long way from feeling I know as much as I need to know, (and I will continue to be very careful), I do feel I now have a better shot at finding and solving SOME future problems that might arise. The testing everyone suggested is clearly a key, and something I need to learn more about so I can use the knowledge more effectively. 

By the way, here's one for y'all that's probably worth a chuckle, or maybe even a good-sized guffaw.

I made a minor breaker change in my solar system today. While doing that, I had the thought that you electrically knowledgeable folks will probably marvel at the fact I completed the system without killing myself. But, truth is, I can follow a wiring diagram . . . ! There were a few glitches along the way -- like three Chinese LiFePO4 batteries I purchased just flat dying one day leaving me powerless in the middle of the Arizona desert last winter. It turned out it was the BMS in the batteries. But, at that time, I didn't really know what a BMS was or did. Now, I can build my own LiFePO4 batteries, wire the BMS, etc. (Blue cells in the front of the photo, a 200Ah battery; and another set of cells is on the way for an additional 300 Ah battery.) 

 

Yep, even I, myself, am astonished that I completed it. Given my difficulty solving my current power mystery problem, I'm feeling very, very lucky that I got the system up and running and that it is working so well.

And, yep, I do laugh at myself a lot about it (the solar system) and other dumb things I do but somehow seem to muddle through . . . with the help of wonderful human beings like those of you who have been helping me here.

I'll let you know when I am moved to the new site and connected to a different power pedestal. I am hopeful!

Thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU ! ! ! 

Jim (jesfl45)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jesfl45]

 

Good morning to all,

It's a happy morning here. I finally completed the move of my rig and plugged into a different pedestal late yesterday at sundown.

Hallelujah! POWER ! ! !

Everything that is 120 VAC connected in the RV seems to be working perfectly overnight, knock on wood!

THE PEDESTAL WAS THE PROBLEM, apparently!

One lesson here is “listen to thy neighbors!” If I’d just moved when the neighbor stopped by and told me others had problems with the (old site’s) pedestal, I would have saved myself two weeks of grief!

Thank goodness for my solar system! The thought crossed my mind, however, that I probably would have tried to move to a different site/pedestal had it not been for my solar power working so well.

FYI, there are only minor differences in my wiring connections and the connectors from the last time I hard-wired the pedestal power to the WFCO panel to test. I don’t think, but don’t know for sure, that either was the problem. They are:

(1) The new pedestal -- which still looks just as old and worn -- has a 30 amp pedestal plug, so no 50/30 dog bone converter cord; and,

(2) I replaced the 19-year-old 30A/15A 2-pole Cutler-Hammer main breaker with a new Siemens breaker in the WFCO power panel.

Note: Last night/this morning, I am still using my 8’ temporary power cable from the SmartPlug input at the rear of the RV directly to the WFCO power distribution panel. I’ll have to replace that this morning and reconnect the original in-floor Romex-type wiring to the WFCO box.

So, my assumption has to be that my “mystery power problem” was some gremlin in the old pedestal? I don’t know of any other deductive reasoning conclusion?

YES! I am ecstatic that I now have 120V power. But I am feeling quite displeased by myself that finding the cause of my power problem was such a long and frustrating process . . . and that ultimately never yielded an absolutely clear answer about the cause?

Is finding an electrical problem always so difficult? There’s gotta’ be an easier way?

If you will be so kind to help me clear my head via a couple of follow-up questions:

What did I do wrong?

What else could I have done to diagnose that the pedestal was the problem?

My two load tests didn’t show any significant or voltage drop? So I assumed it was not a pedestal loading problem, after your counsel. Bad assumption, I guess? 

I’m not opening pedestals, because that’s waaaaaay too much risk at my limited knowledge level! Even more so on a power pedestal that doesn’t even have a breaker.

The city’s electrician never showed up over two weeks of supposed requests by the park manager. Had the city electrician come to test the pedestal, what might he have seen/tested that would have shown the pedestal was the problem?

For my future reference, is there any other test I could have run that would have revealed the power pedestal as the problem?

I’m now turning my focus to permanently re-wiring and cleaning up after my pedestal power fiasco.

I’m exhausted, mentally and physically from fighting this problem over 3 weeks. I hope I never have such an issue again!

I’ll let you know if all is still working perfectly after I complete the cleanup and all of the permanent wiring.

Once again, I want to express my enduring gratitude for everyone on this forum who has offered advice and possible solutions.

My learning has been immense, thanks to all of you. My confidence in my electrical knowledge, however, has gone down quite a bit. That’s because I have learned so many new things from those of you here. I am no longer completely veiled in electrical ignorance BECAUSE I NOW REALIZE HOW MUCH I STILL NEED TO LEARN!

I’ve undertaken a lot of online research while the problem-solving has been going on! The positive side benefit of that is I have accumulated quite a digital reference file of articles and testing techniques that I can use in the future should another problem arise (as I assume it will)!

There will never, ever be enough “thank you’s” for all everyone here has done assisting and supporting my efforts.

Please know that your gracious assistance will never be forgotten.

Thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU!

Jim (jesfl45)

[oldjohnt]

CONGRATULATIONS glad it was at (or in wiring before) the pedestal, that was a good idea (imagine that) to simply try a different pedestal yayyyyyyyyy

Indeed it's a mystery why if the pedestal suppled a constant 1500 watt heat gun load and it worked fine, yet it wouldn't supply the RV on the same leg and same connection/dogbone (right ??? or a different connection ?? 30 or 50 Amp??).   Was EVERYTHING THE SAME (load test versus when the RV was plugged in EXACTLY the same way ??)  

NO MATTER the main thing is a different pedestal (under same conditions right ?) works GLAD YOU GOT IT GOING

PS Oops, sorry I missed that, I see there was a difference ??

On 3/4/2022 at 6:45 AM, jesfl45 said:

(1) The new pedestal -- which still looks just as old and worn -- has a 30 amp pedestal plug, so no 50/30 dog bone converter cord; and,

 The 50 to 30 Dogbone uses ONLY ONE of the two 120 Volt legs in the old 50 Amp Pedestal and you used that leg for the Load Test, while perhaps the new pedestal uses the other leg for its 30 Amp receptacle ?? Could be a problem in the RV parks wiring at a place OTHER THEN that 50 Amp pedestal   hmmmmmmmmmmmmm but if it's bad its still the parks problem..Another problem in the parks wiring or pedestal (or even RV side) could be a loose resistive or open Neutral in which case of the 240 line to line, subject to an imbalanced load, one side may be high with respect to Neutral and the other extremely low voltage ???

Best wishes thanks for the update, but for me a question remains (good Load Test but no RV power at old pedestal while it works BUT WITHOUT THE DOGBONE on a different pedestal, THERE COULD BE DIFFERENT LEGS IN USE AT DIFFERENT PEDESTALS ??? When you plugged to the old 50 via a dogbone the RV may be using the other leg at the new 30 amp pedestal DRATS LOL    I have seen either the connections or the wires go bad in those dogbone adapters and high current and high heat may have contributed ???  

GOOD NEWS IS IT DOESNT MATTER ANYMORE LOL Not being there or performing my own tests anymore guessing isn't worth much...Still fun and glad to have helped...

 Best wishes

John T   

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by oldjohnt

[jesfl45]

 

Good morning all, 

I want to say thank you, once more, to all who helped with my mystery power problem fiasco.

I thought you might like to know that, yesterday, I completed the rewiring of all the system elements -- both 120 volt-AC and 12-volt DC -- that I disconnected to eliminate possible issues when in search of the source of the pedestal power problem. I had forgotten how many connections I disconnected so it was more than a small chore to reconnect everything. In the process, I replaced some 19-year-old wiring and checked all connections. 

I also wired in my new 3-way switch with options for selecting the power source -- pedestal AC power, solar system inverter power, or generator power. Since the transfer switch is gone, this prevents me from accidentally leaving more than one AC power input source connected at a time. Much safer and more convenient, I feel.

So, I'm back in full service with all three of my 120-volt power sources. 

Oddly, I've found that I am asking myself many questions about AC power systems and wiring the last few days. So I started creating a list of those things yet to learn. I've decided I'll approach it a bit like I did learning about solar systems and their wiring, where I found some excellent online "courses" and went to school. 

So, THANK YOU ! ! !  Again and again, I say it, for your gracious assistance and support. 

I am overflowing with gratitude.

Thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU ! ! !

Jim (jesfl45)

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

So, I'm back in full service with all three of my 120-volt power sources. 

It is good to hear that you have everything working again and life has returned to normal, whatever that may be.   😊

[oldjohnt]

6 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

I also wired in my new 3-way switch with options for selecting the power source -- pedestal AC power, solar system inverter power, or generator power. Since the transfer switch is gone, this prevents me from accidentally leaving more than one AC power input source connected at a time. Much safer and more convenient, I feel

Congratulations, just a bit of FYI on that 3 way transfer switch configuration:

There can be ONLY ONE Neutral Ground Bond,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, The RV Panel (unlike a homes panel) has separate insulated and isolated Neutral and Ground Busses,,,,,,,,A typical onboard RV Genset uses  a BONDED NEUTRAL which is also connected to the RV's iron frame,,,,,,,,,,An Inverter is most likely configured with a BONDED NEUTRAL,,,,,,,,,The shore power pedestal supply also has, of course, a BONDED NEUTRAL and its Equipment GroundING Conductor is attached to the RV frame.

 This MAY OR MAY NOT (absent your specs and diagrams) come into play and depends on iffffffffff the transfer switch switches Hot and Neutral (plus your wiring configuration and equipment specs) orrrrrrrrr Hot only and ties the Neutrals together. I don't know all that sitting here and really don't want to lol enough already, again this may or may NOT even be an issue... 

 Absent complete wiring diagrams and specs I cant go any further or answer questions, so consider the above ONLY AS EDUCATION AND INFORMATION (there are entire volumes on this topic it CAN NOT BE WELL EXPLAINED HERE in a paragraph, if you're bored study up on the subject). We have beat this horse to death already (no more cans of worms please lol)  and need to wrap this thread up so CONGRATULATIONS you're up n running  and a simple try a different pedestal  was so easy and saved a ton of time yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy  

 Best wishes to all here

John T  Live in the RV dry camped at Pioneer Park in Zolfo Springs Florida as an exhibitor at an antique tractor show, solar panels and lithium batteries and inverter are really pumping these bright sunny days to run the microwave and hair dryer and instant pot and CPAP and fridge wooooooooo hoooooooooo 

 

   

Edited March 6, 2022 by oldjohnt

[Randyretired]

John, bonding the ground and neutral is a problem I am looking at for our off grid PV.  It will have 2 or maybe 3 inverters.  These are designed to parallel up to 6.  Each one bonds the ground and neutral.  The 11,000 watt generator I have has the ground and neutral bonded also.  I sure wish these companies would make the bonding optional.  My preference is to bond in the main panel.

[oldjohnt]

18 hours ago, Randyretired said:

My preference is to bond in the main panel

Randy, with sooooooo many Inverters out there including Combination Charger/Inverters and Pass Throughs etc etc it could be simple if ALL those energy sources were floating (one way at least among others to do this) and you bonded at the panel like at home and used the RV frame for the "Grounding Electrode" there doesn't seem to be any RV standard......Seems like I read some Inverters use a bonding relay so when in use there was a NG bond but when not it was open/floating ?? The trouble is if there's multiple NG Bonds the Equipment GroundING Conductor (tied to metal cases of tools and appliances) can become a live current carrier. One SIMPLE method when using a Transfer Switch is for it to be a Two Pole (30 amp RV) to switch BOTH the Hot and Neutral and have each source (Genset or Utility or Inverter) with its own Bond (typical) that way whatever energy source is feeding the RV panel you satisfy the Single Point Grounding concept and other safety considerations. On home gensets if you end up typing the Neutrals together (like many cheap plug in arrangements absent a full blown transfer switch) to be safe and correct the genset should be configured with a Floating Neutral with its case attached to the Equipment GroundING Conductor. Were all aware of how some brands of portable gensets float the Neutral while others Bond (for good reason subject to how used) and those floaters can make an EMS go bonkers lol 

Nuff said, don't want to hijack the thread or confuse the OP any more lol 

Best wishes Randy and everyone, be safe

John T 

Edited March 7, 2022 by oldjohnt