30-Amp Power Mystery

[oldjohnt]

3 hours ago, Randyretired said:

John, I am late to the party but there seems to be a concern that this may be a problem when under load or just not connected.

    Hi again Randy, to the concern regarding if it was merely a NON CONNECTION problem versus a LOAD problem, I stated above... "somewhere wayyyyyyy up above based on his postings I got the impression THERE IS A CONNECTION (albeit perhaps bad) AND VOLTAGE IS PRESENT"

FYI here are Jes' statements that formed my impression noted immediately above

Jes's postings:

         all of the testing and tracking had me open the power panel and test all the way through the transfer switch and all of the wiring to the main 30 amp breaker input connection. In every instance, I read 120+ volts at the input to that beaker -- from both the shore power connection and from my solar inverter connection.

        The shore power connection does not power the RV’s electrical system, even though I can read the 120 volts at the 30 amp breaker connection in the power panel. I do not understand that at all.

        The readings at every connection point are 123.5 volts (+/-) with a very slight variance . . . and that includes the main 30 amp breaker at my power panel. I did get a slight variation with readings of 122.5v to 122.9v at the power panel, too.

          However, there is no 120 volt power to anything in the RV when any or all of the remainder of the 15/20 amp circuits are turned on. So, power in. No power out.

          I have tested voltage at every single connection from the power pedestal to the breaker connection in my RV's WFCO power panel. Every single wire and or receptacle a steady 122v to 123v

           Similarly, in my voltage tests of the 120 volt power (not connected at all with my solar inverter power system), I read 122.? to 123.? volts. with minor deviations.

Sooooooooooo if we are to believe when connected to shore power he indeed had 120 volts at the panel (looks fairly obvious) but nothing works, I'm again again again lol back to a Load problem versus no connection such as the cord or a plug or receptacle (faulty or mis wired) or junction or splice ??????????????? ASSUMING his pedestal load test was accurate which indicated the pedestal was okay ???   

 Thanks again Randy, its a pleasure sparking chatting with you and yes if we were only there lol

 Take care Randy, best wishes.

 John T 

 

[Randyretired]

18 minutes ago, oldjohnt said:

    Hi again Randy, to the concern regarding if it was merely a NON CONNECTION problem versus a LOAD problem, I stated above... "somewhere wayyyyyyy up above based on his postings I got the impression THERE IS A CONNECTION (albeit perhaps bad) AND VOLTAGE IS PRESENT"

FYI here are Jes' statements that formed my impression noted immediately above

Jes's postings:

         all of the testing and tracking had me open the power panel and test all the way through the transfer switch and all of the wiring to the main 30 amp breaker input connection. In every instance, I read 120+ volts at the input to that beaker -- from both the shore power connection and from my solar inverter connection.

        The shore power connection does not power the RV’s electrical system, even though I can read the 120 volts at the 30 amp breaker connection in the power panel. I do not understand that at all.

        The readings at every connection point are 123.5 volts (+/-) with a very slight variance . . . and that includes the main 30 amp breaker at my power panel. I did get a slight variation with readings of 122.5v to 122.9v at the power panel, too.

          However, there is no 120 volt power to anything in the RV when any or all of the remainder of the 15/20 amp circuits are turned on. So, power in. No power out.

          I have tested voltage at every single connection from the power pedestal to the breaker connection in my RV's WFCO power panel. Every single wire and or receptacle a steady 122v to 123v

           Similarly, in my voltage tests of the 120 volt power (not connected at all with my solar inverter power system), I read 122.? to 123.? volts. with minor deviations.

Sooooooooooo if we are to believe when connected to shore power he indeed had 120 volts at the panel (looks fairly obvious) but nothing works, I'm again again again lol back to a Load problem versus no connection such as the cord or a plug or receptacle (faulty or mis wired) or junction or splice ??????????????? ASSUMING his pedestal load test was accurate which indicated the pedestal was okay ???   

 Thanks again Randy, its a pleasure sparking chatting with you and yes if we were only there lol

 Take care Randy, best wishes.

 John T 

 

Certainly sounds like a load problem.  Assuming that with the breakers in the RV on, the power into the RV breaker box ceases, then a voltage test at any point that can be accessed would help isolate  where it fails.  This needs to be done with the breakers on.  One spot that is often accessible is the transfer relay.  Maybe at the input and output of the transfer relay.  Often the power cord from the pedestal has terminations that can be accessed.  That would tell a lot.  Again all of the voltage tests are with the RV attached to the pedestal and the breakers in the RV on.  

Jes, testing powered circuits involves certain risks and safe procedures are required.  If you are not comfortable and confident in your ability please hire professional help.  I am not familiar with your background so we need to trust your judgment. 

[Randyretired]

Another test that can be helpful is to read the voltages from the neutral to ground and the hot or non grounded conductor to ground at each accessible location while testing the above points.

[oldjohnt]

Just one more thought: One DIFFERENCE when he's using the Inverter to feed the panel (which works) VERSUS when using the Pedestal (RV loads don't work) IS THE SURGE PROTECTION DEVICE present ONLY when using Pedestal power. 

Is it showing any trouble lights/codes ??

Have you tried not using the protector ?? If you haven't give it a try by plugging the RV power cord direct to the pedestal using your 50 to 30 dogbone adapter!!!!!!!!! Hopefully there's good 120 VAC there Line to Neutral WHICH NEEDS TO BE BOTH WITH NO LOAD OR WHEN UNDER A LOAD

NOTE I doubt the protector is the problem, especially since you used it for your pedestal load heat gun test and it passed, Im ONLY pointing out is one DIFFERENCE between working Inverter power versus non working shore pedestal power.......

HOWEVER if it (pedestal and surge protector and dogbone) passed the Load test using your heat gun and all was fine with no significant voltage drop with heat gun running, that says the protector isn't the problem. This assumes the leg you load tested (1 or 2) is the same leg feeding your RV 

13 hours ago, Randyretired said:

Another test that can be helpful is to read the voltages from the neutral to ground and the hot or non grounded conductor to ground at each accessible location while testing the above points.

EXACTLY Of course if all is wired right and in place the Voltage from the Hot UNgrounded Conductor to EITHER the Grounded Conductor (Neutral/White) orrrrrrrrr the Equipment GroundiNG Conducor (Bare/Green) should be near the same. If not the Neutral or Ground may be bad/open (or an improper or missing Neutral/Ground Bond) which can prevent proper operation.

Jes, get the AC Voltmeter out and start checking voltages UNDER AN RV LOAD (see my post above for how to load) starting at the Panel then back towards the Pedestal such as any junctions or splices or terminals or wiring blocks,,,,,,,Any Plugs or Receptacles (and insure they are wired correct ?),,,,,,,,All Cords,,,,,,,,Any Relays...........

USE CAUTION if you're not familiar with electricity hire a professional

 

John T

Edited February 21, 2022 by oldjohnt

[jesfl45]

Gentlemen, 

Again, many thanks for your efforts. I just skimmed all of the latest posts, but I am not otherwise available today (with family). I cannot do other tests until Wednesday when back at my RV.

Two quick thoughts:

-- It is getting increasingly difficult to connect every reference made to the same exact point, because of the length and the drifts/dodges (right, left, backwards) of all the comments.

-- I have completed dozens and dozens of the tests you suggested. While, I wrote words explaining the results of many, I recognize I have not properly listed all of the exact tests and the results data (because of the time required). I will list all of the testing data before going further.

Will it be useful for me to start a completely new thread with:

(a) a brief statement of the problem (without the now irrelevant early in-this-post information that seems to now confuse the subject), and

(b) the point-by-point/connection-by-connection testing data listed at the top?

If yes, I will do so first thing Wednesday when back at my RV.

I sincerely appreciate your time and wise thoughts.

Jim (jesfl45)

 

[oldjohnt]

23 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

Gentlemen, 

Again, many thanks for your efforts. I just skimmed all of the latest posts, but I am not otherwise available today (with family). I cannot do other tests until Wednesday when back at my RV.

Thanks Jes, there's NO hurry, take your time and above all be safe and don't take any chances if you're not familiar with checking the lethal 120 Volts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  It's easy for us sparkies to say check here check there but realize it's harder for you, so BE SAFE ASK QUESTION NO RUSH. Collectively we pretty well all agree and have told you our prime suspects and what to do next (as narrowed down in the above few postings primarily voltage checks under load) so it's in your hands now GOOD LUCK, glad to help best we can.

IN A NUTSHELL as I posted above: With RV plugged to pedestal and main and all branch breakers OFF check Voltage on main panel INPUT and at Pedestal.......One at a time turn on branch breakers that feed a load (elec. water heater, fridge if on AC, converter/charger if on) or an appliance plugged to an RV receptacle...........See what voltage does at both locations ?????? If low at pedestal under a load I suspect its the problem, if okay there but low at main panel, your RV is the problem (cord or plug or receptacle or dogbone adapter or junctions/splices/terminals or any relays etc bad or miswired.)

 Best wishes, God Bless be safe

 John T

Edited February 22, 2022 by oldjohnt

[jesfl45]

 

Good morning, John T and all others connected here,

I won’t be back to my RV until Thursday. I cannot complete further tests until Friday, 25Feb22, at the earliest.

However, while showing my family RV photos yesterday, I accidentally found numerous pix of previous tests of the power pedestal 50 amp receptacle.

Therefore, may I ask that for this moment the "mystery problem-solving" focus be only on the pedestal power and not other connections or other parts of my 120 volt system.

Here is the data I found from the phone photos.

Pedestal 50 amp receptacle test readings:

-- common to Hot1 (left) = 121.6v

-- common to Hot2 (right) = 122.7v

-- ground to Hot1 (left) = 121.2v

-- ground to Hot2 (right) = 123.3v

-- ground to common = 0.126v

-- Hot1 (left) to Hot2 (right) = 244v (no decimals shown on multimeter photo)

These test readings are undeviating from many other tests I made of the pedestal, even some using old and borrowed multimeters.

Consistently, nothing is out of the ordinary or worrisome, as far as my knowledge and my online research for “correct” 50 amp voltage readings go.

So, may I ask: IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE -- EVEN VERY OBSCURE OR RARE -- THAT MIGHT CAUSE THE PEDESTAL TO BE THE POWER PROBLEM even when all test readings are within range (as above)?

If yes, how do I test for whatever that electrical oddity might be?

If there is absolutely no possible obscure electrical issue that might possibly cause a problem, I will not ask again. But, unless I missed it or didn't understand the point, there is as yet no mention or response to this question/issue?

Yes, I have well-learned that the ability of the pedestal to carry a heavy power load is one possible problem. I am not discounting that concept. To the contrary, I've tested that and the photo of the test is above in this thread. I could test 10 more times and get unchanging results, I believe.

For quick reference, I tested PEDESTAL POWER LOAD CAPABILITY with 750 watt and 1500 watt direct loads. The result was only 3.0 volts power reduction at 1500 watt load. (Note: This test was from the power pedestal through a 50amp-to 30amp dog bone and then a fully functioning Progressive Industries surge protector . . . because that is the only way I could figure out how to do it. That is a total distance electrically from the pedestal connection to the load (an electric heater) and the multimeter test connections of 2.5 feet.)

I look forward to any thoughts about any possible rare or odd power pedestal problem possibilities.

Thank you very, very much to everyone for your continuing suggestions and assistance.

 Jim (jesfl45)

 _____________________

P.S.

The following is different information and not directly the core “power pedestal-only focus” requested above. Please do not respond to the facts below as that will only confuse the focus.

However, I feel the information below is relevant for perspective when considering the possible pedestal power issues.

(1) Friday, I will test the the loading capability of the power at the point of entry connection to the WFCO power distribution panel. I now understand how I can do that by making a different adapter cable. I will relay those results as soon as available. This essentially tests the load capability of the incoming power connections from the surge protector (where previously load test was made), through the new SmartPlug connection to the RV, and then to the rear/main 30 amp connection to the power panel. I expect, again, a minimal 1500 watt load loss of about 3.0 watts.

(2) I cannot test alternately as suggested -- by turning on the main breaker and then one-by-one turning on secondary breakers and measuring line load change/decline at every connection -- because none of the secondary breakers have any power.

As I have indicated previously, I can multimeter-read 120+ volts in 2 places WFCO panel-related: (a) behind the panel at the main 30 amp power connection, and (b) in the front of the panel measuring with the positive probe on the incoming wire connection at the 30 amp breaker with the breaker turned both off and on. The multimeter reading is 120+ volts at both back and front locations.

With the main 30 amp breaker on, however, there is NO POWER to any of the sub-breakers, when turned on/off one-by-one. This is consistent and tested many, many times even going back to the point when the power was still connected through the old transfer switch. Same result. No power in sub-breakers. (Transfer switch now completely removed from 120 VAC system and trashed, a memory only.)

I have previously asked why/how this is possible.

PLEASE DO NOT ADDRESS THIS POINT/QUESTION IN THIS POST. It is a different subject for a response in a different post. It will only confuse the power pedestal focus.

Thank you, thank you to all, once again.

Jim (jesfl45)

 

[Kirk W]

I do not understand why you are so sure that the problem is in the power pedestal? With all of the work you have been doing, wouldn't it be much easier to move to a known good pedestal to see if that changes anything? 

[oldjohnt]

On 2/23/2022 at 6:21 AM, jesfl45 said:

Consistently, nothing is out of the ordinary or worrisome, as far as my knowledge and my online research for “correct” 50 amp voltage readings go.

So, may I ask: IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE -- EVEN VERY OBSCURE OR RARE -- THAT MIGHT CAUSE THE PEDESTAL TO BE THE POWER PROBLEM even when all test readings are within range (as above)?

 

BEFORE anything else, ifffffffffff there's no voltage on any of the panels branch breakers (such that they can be turned on and apply a load when connected to pedestal power) yet the main breaker is good and closed WHEN PLUGGED (with good dogbone adapter) TO A GOOD WORKING PEDESTAL, BETTER BE LOOKING FOR A BAD/OPEN  CONNECTION/PLUG/RECEPTACLE/JUNCTION/SPLICE/SWITCH  BETWEEN THE POWER CORD PLUG AND THE MAIN PANEL INPUT (IE the same place where if the Inverter is connected everything works)  

 

NOW IN RESPONSE TO THE QUOTE ABOVE 

YES although those voltage readings ARE FINE UNDER NO LOAD here are possible problems in the pedestal

  1) The Receptacle and its contacts are worn/loose/carbon covered/resistive. It may be possible to jiggle or re plug to make it work temporarily. BUT IF ITS WORN/LOOSE/CARBON COVERED/RESISTIVE voltage can still read fine under no load conditions but go bad (voltage drops) when drawing current. The plug should push in tight and be held firm, if its real loose the receptacle is worn out (even if voltage fine under no load)  same for dogbone adapter and any other plugs or receptacles 

   2) One of the wiring connections or splices or is loose/resistive OR THE DOGBONE ADAPTER IS BAD !!!!! I have seen the molded ones have a loose/burned connection and that can cause voltage drop and render the RV inoperable

   3) There could be park wiring problems (too small wire or poor resistive connections or splices) NOT IN BUT BEFORE AND AHEAD OF THE PEDESTAL  causing the same problems 

 NOTE above you load tested at the pedestal and according to you it passed fine AND IF THAT WAS A VALID TEST THAT TELLS ME THE PEDESTAL IS OKAY BUT THE FAULT IS IN YOUR RV WIRING (Plug or Receptacle or the Cord or a faulty splice/termination/connection BETWEEN THE PEDESTAL AND YOUR MAIN PANEL INPUT. If you had a known good 30 amp substitute cord from the pedestal to your main panel input and it worked fine THAT TELLS ME YOUR RV WIRING IS THE PROBLEM 

 Unfortunate that you don't have enough cords or adapters to plug to a different pedestal or could move..

IN A NUTSHELL as I posted above: With RV plugged to pedestal and main and all branch breakers OFF check Voltage on main panel INPUT and at Pedestal.......One at a time turn on branch breakers that feed a load (elec. water heater, fridge if on AC, converter/charger if on) or an appliance plugged to an RV receptacle...........See what voltage does at both locations ?????? If low at pedestal under a load I suspect its the problem, if okay there but low at main panel, your RV is the problem (cord or plug or receptacle or dogbone adapter or junctions/splices/terminals or any relays etc bad or miswired.)

I realize Im repeating myself but I'm running out of ideas lol I don't have much more to tell you

NOTICE DO NOT READ THIS as you didn’t want responses to this portion of your post, however it may provide info to others with the same problem, so this is for them !!!

“””(2) I cannot test alternately as suggested -- by turning on the main breaker and then one-by-one turning on secondary breakers and measuring line load change/decline at every connection -- because none of the secondary breakers have any power.””””

“”””With the main 30 amp breaker on, however, there is NO POWER to any of the sub-breakers, when turned on/off one-by-one. “”””

IF NO BRANCH BREAKERS HAVE ANY POWER WHEN ON AND THERE IS POWER TO AND THROUGH THE PANELS MAIN BREAKER (IE BOTH IN and OUT to Buss, Main Breaker is okay??),,,,,,, THEY OR THE PANEL ASSEMBLY/BUSS HAS A SERIOUS PROBLEM or if no power out (yet input is good) of main breaker its bad...Breakers can go bad and if the main isn't passing power through none of the branch breakers have power either !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT YOU REPORT IT ALL WORKS IF THE INVERTER FEEDS THE MAIN PANEL hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ?????? says the panel and main is fine???  SUCH A MYSTERY INDEED..  So does the Inverter and shore power system feed the same exact place, the main panels input ??? I tend to think NOT, so here's yet one more unknown mystery or something thats bad ..IF THERES NO POWER AT ANY BRANCH BREAKERS WHEN CONNECTED TO SHORE POWER WITH THE MAIN BREAKER ON ?? YOUR RV WIRING SYSTEM FROM THE POWER CORDS PLUG (assumes dogbone adapter is good) TO THE PANELS INPUT IS SIMPLY NOTTTTTTTTT CONNECTED SOMEWHERE (Connection or Splice or Junction or Relay or Switch etc)   

 Best wishes, God Bless be safe

 John T

  

   

Edited February 24, 2022 by oldjohnt

[jesfl45]

 

Good morning Kirk, John T and others,

Power Pedestal Focus:  Kirk, the three reasons the power pedestal is still on my radar as the source of the mystery no-shore-power problem are:

(1) I am not at the RV, still with family, and can’t do other testing giving me (perhaps unnecessary) time to worry;

(2) the neighbor who stopped by and advised “. . . others had problems with that pedestal and finally moved to another site . . .”; and

(3) the very old (city-owned/run) RV park that has many visible non-code power pedestal receptacles, like dryer/range-type receptacles at 30 amp locations (the reason I must use a 50 amp connection), no pedestal breakers (instead old 3”x3” pull-out “fuse blocks,” whatever those dinosaurs were called), also with the old-style lightbulb-screw-type 30 amp fuses in the pedestals, but no breaker or fuse whatsoever in the pedestal I must use. Ridiculous is the only word that comes to mind.

Pedestal Connection:  John T, yes, huge warning signs for bad pedestal wiring potential. Therefore, my novice mind wonders if it could be some oddity (not a normal electrical thing) inside the pedestal wiring that only strikes in the dark of night when not testing. There are certainly many chances for and higher odds of that at the RV park, per #3 above.

Dog Bone:  I do not believe it is a bad dog bone. It is my practice when about to connect to a new pedestal at an RV park to spray the plug connector to the pedestal with Deoxit before ever inserting it the first time (after pedestal testing, when tests are OK, of course.) If it is a really old pedestal receptacle like now, I typically plug in/out several times to try to assure better contact. At the RV park, I have now done that dozens of times during this mystery-solving quest. I have cleaned the used-only-2-times-in-3-year plug prongs with emery cloth. I also followed the advice in another comment here and “slightly” bent in/out twisted the 50/30 dog bone prongs different ways, with no change in result. Finally, I asked the RV park for a 50/30 dog bone to test. It was old, too, so the test was really questionable, I understand. But, NO change in result. This past Monday while away from the RV, I feared my prong-bending may have caused damage to my 50/30 dog bone, so I ordered a replacement that should be at the RV park when I return. The dog bone issue will be resolved.

Receptacle State:  The dog bone plug pushes in very tightly, even with all of my Deoxit in/out cleaning efforts. It is hard to plug in and hard to pull out. Normally, that would be good. On the pedestal to which I connect, as I’ve said before, there is no breaker (or any other dark ages power termination method).

Wiring:  If it is a loose wiring connection, it is inside the old pedestal. I stand by my total of 4 wiring connections involved pedestal to power distribution panel.

RV Park Problems:  Since RV park wiring problems ARE highly possible (perhaps probable), given (2) and (3) above. I don’t know how to test for that and am not about to try because any amateur effort from me would undoubtedly be a death sentence. Neither my style, nor the results desire.

“Valid test” of the pedestal receptacle? What would make it NOT a valid test? Either I get a voltage reading on my (new) multimeter, or not. I read the numbers. I report the numbers off the digital screen.

HOWEVER, there have been occasions amidst my many tests when I’ve had some difficulty getting a reading on a multimeter probe without trying several times and jiggling the probe a bit into the pedestal receptacle. Until this moment, that seemed normal and not a big cause for concern. Should it be?

And, then, to the non-pedestal comments:

Breaker LOAD Test:  I’ve said this can’t be done because the sub-breakers won’t turn on even though I read 120+ volts at the 30 amp input connection behind the WFCO panel. I also read 120+ volts (via probes) at the input connection to the 30 amp main breaker in the front of the panel.

BUT MAYBE I MISSED YOUR POINT? Are you saying it does not matter . . . test each breaker with load anyway . . . even if they don’t/won’t pass through power? If yes, I don’t really understand the theory (please do not explain, it will be over my head). But I will do the testing if you think there will be helpful data from those tests.

However, a little further explanation is required, please. I don’t know how to do what you suggest?

(a) At the WFCO panel input, it is easy enough to connect the multimeter probes inside the twist-on wire connectors at my hardwired main connection into the WFCO panel. I’ve done that and tested load(s) with the solar inverter as the power source.

 (b) And maybe this is obvious to a pro, yet I’m drawing a big blank about how to test at the pedestal, as you suggest, exactly? With the dog bone plugged into the 50 amp receptacle, I see no place to test. Are you suggesting I do something like pull out the dog bone plug slightly and stick multimeter probes in beside (or alligator clip to) the 1/8” or so of exposed plug prongs for such a test? To me that both dangerous and very scary.

Another Relevant (?) Part Replacement:  One curiosity that has been haunting me, and knowledge-seeking question I now pose is this. I have guessed/wondered previously about whether a breaker, especially my main 30 amp WFCO panel breaker, could be bad or otherwise not fully functioning. If I “load test” the main 30 amp breaker and it shows a problem (dramatically decreased voltage), is that likely the problem all along?

To that end, in addition to the new dog bone I ordered, I also decided to order a new main breaker for my WFCO power distribution panel. The 19-year-old one is a Cutler-Hammer HACR Type 2-pole 30amp/15amp breaker, BD3015/A3015 ($50, also ridiculous). The replacement main breaker is on the way, arrival next week.

WHY? Because I have always understood and accepted that in testing (not just electrical) is best served by eliminating all possible problematic elements. While off the subject of the power pedestal, I have amateur suspicion the main breaker might be a problem? A test with a replacement will tell. If the old breaker is still good, the new one is returnable.

Your load test of breakers, John T, probably will achieve the same end as replacing the breaker as a test. But, I did not and still do not exactly understand how to do that breaker load test at the pedestal.

Wrong Assumption:  John T, I accept that you are a master “doubting-Thomas,” and in electrical testing that is an obvious virtue and important skill. I also accept that I will never be able to “prove” tests, etc. to the point of your acceptance until you can actually be on site and hands-on-test yourself, directly. That ain’t gonna’ happen.

BUT, FYI, you are 100% wrong about one of your assumptions:

“So does the Inverter and shore power system feed the same exact place, the main panels input ??? I tend to think NOT, so here's yet one more unknown mystery or something thats bad .”

It is by design a perfectly straight-through flow of electricity from the power pedestal ending with a hard-wired connection from a 10/3 cable (power) to a 10/3 cable connection into the WFCO panel. Early-on, I wondered if the 18-year-old 10/2+g orange Romex through the floor where I couldn’t see it was suspect. So, I wired completely around it for testing. I cut a 7’-8’ foot length of an old power cable and connected it from the SmartPlug directly to the WFCO panel. First, admittedly, that was through the transfer switch. Now, for two weeks since the transfer switch has been in the trash, that is DIRECTLY via twist-on wire connectors to the WFCO panel. This test cable is gaffer-taped to across my RV floor during all my testing. When using shore power, that wire is hard-wired (twist-on wire connectors) to the WFCO panel. When using inverter power, the 10/3 (orange) Romex I ran from the solar system inverter is hard-wired directly to the WFCO panel. Only one power source can be/is connected at a time. Period. Please eliminate this hard-wired connection as problematic in your thinking.

John T, what I’m looking for are other obscure, rare, or "not likely, but . . . " possible issues that might be causing this mystery problem, not the things I have tested ad infinitum, whether you accept those as fact or not. I understand that you don’t. I understand why, and as I said, that’s not all bad. But, I do think it is counterproductive at this point to go in circles and say the same things repeatedly, facts-accepted-by-you-or-not. What else is there?

If there are absolutely no possible problem causes other than the wiring, connections, etc. previously visited and re- re- revisited herein (even if theoretical), please tell me that. I’m nearing the end of my capacity to chase my tail.

So, I eagerly await your direction on exactly how to test load at the power pedestal connection with the 50 amp dog bone plugged in?

I also am hopeful you will suggest any other specific tests -- not completed multiple times previously -- in some priority order that I can soon undertake. I should be back at the RV tomorrow and able to do additional testing.

Once again, thank you sooooo much. I have been receiving an incredibly valuable electrical education through your questioning and comments. I will value that forever ! ! ! Thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU, to all, again and again. I am indebted forever.

Jim (jesfl45)

 

[Kirk W]

35 minutes ago, jesfl45 said:

(1) I am not at the RV,

When you have time, sit down and make a schematic drawing of all of your modifications from the power plug on the side of the RV to the input to the 120V distribution panel. Show us what it is that we are dealing with including how your different power sources each connect into the distribution system. I can't speak for John or Vern but I know that I do not understand what you have done so have real problems offering suggestions. I will say that in more than 40 year of electrical service work it has been my experience that if a new problem occurs after I completed a job, that problem was somehow related to the work done in more than 90% of the cases. 

[oldjohnt]

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

Pedestal Connection:  John T, yes, huge warning signs for bad pedestal wiring potential. Therefore, my novice mind wonders if it could be some oddity (not a normal electrical thing) inside the pedestal wiring that only strikes in the dark of night when not testing. There are certainly many chances for and higher odds of that at the RV park, per #3 above.

I agree there indeed exists "bad pedestal wiring potential" and "oddities" that may strike in the dark causing a problem ONLY when a current load causes a voltage drop (V = I x R) across a bad/loose/carboned/burned/resistive receptacle or splice or connection or terminal in the pedestal itself orrrrrrrrrrr upstream in the RV parks wiring......

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

 

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

Dog Bone:  I do not believe it is a bad dog bone.

I agree its "likely" okay but not being there I can't prove it.

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

Receptacle State:  The dog bone plug pushes in very tightly, even with all of my Deoxit in/out cleaning efforts. It is hard to plug in and hard to pull out

Sounds like there's a chance the receptacle itself is okay but not being there I can't prove it. It could still be a good receptacle but has bad connections !!!

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

Wiring:  If it is a loose wiring connection, it is inside the old pedestal. I stand by my total of 4 wiring connections involved pedestal to power distribution panel.

There could well be a "loose wiring connection" inside the old pedestal and even perfect voltages under NO LOAD does NOT mean alls well as UNDER LOAD there can be that V = I x R Voltage Drop grrrrrrrrrrrrr lol

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

RV Park Problems:  Since RV park wiring problems ARE highly possible (perhaps probable), given (2) and (3) above. I don’t know how to test for that and am not about to try because any amateur effort from me would undoubtedly be a death sentence. Neither my style, nor the results desire.

I agree DO NOT UNDERTAKE DANGEROUS TESTING. To test for voltage drop you need to apply a heavy current load while monitoring voltage to see if it stays up or drops drastically which is indicative of a loose/burned/resistive splice or connection IE BAD PEDESTAL or wiring to pedestal.

 

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

“Valid test” of the pedestal receptacle? What would make it NOT a valid test? Either I get a voltage reading on my (new) multimeter, or not. I read the numbers. I report the numbers off the digital screen.

A valid test is to measure the voltage BOTH with no load and again under heavy load to see if it drops drastically. Just because its fine under no load DOES NOT mean the pedestal or the RV parks wiring to it is good

 

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

Breaker LOAD Test:  I’ve said this can’t be done because the sub-breakers won’t turn on even though I read 120+ volts at the 30 amp input connection behind the WFCO panel. I also read 120+ volts (via probes) at the input connection to the 30 amp main breaker in the front of the panel.

BUT MAYBE I MISSED YOUR POINT? Are you saying it does not matter . . . test each breaker with load anyway . . . even if they don’t/won’t pass through power? If yes, I don’t really understand the theory (please do not explain, it will be over my head). But I will do the testing if you think there will be helpful data from those tests.

However, a little further explanation is required, please. I don’t know how to do what you suggest?

What do you mean they 'wont turn on" ??? Not flip and stay closed,, or not lock/hold in engaged,, or no voltage even when on,, or is there a little red button that's not holding in or what ???? If there is no or low voltage at the main I can envision a scenario where a problem may occur.     

What I suggest is if and when there's 120 VAC on the main panels input before and after the 30 amp main breaker you measure the voltage, then flip breakers on one at a time with RV loads such as a water heater set on elec,,,,,,,a fridge set on 120 VAC,,,,,,,,A Converter/Charger,,,,,,,,,,,,,hair dryer or microwave or an elec heater plugged into one of the RV outlets   TO SEE IF VOLTAGE DROPS AS THEY ARE TURNED ON ????????????? IF SO THERE BUT NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTT AT THE PEDESTAL, THE PROBLEM IS IN YOUR RV (Plug or cord or receptacle or junction or splice or switch or relay)  NOTTTTTTT THE PEDESTAL.......HOWEVER if voltage drops at the pedestal when this happens and is close to the panel voltage THE PEDESTAL OR RV PARK WIRING IS THE PROBLEM.......... HOWEVER IF THE BRANCH BREAKERS "WONT TURN ON" AS YOU STATED YOU CAN'T LOAD THE SYSTEM !!

 

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

 (b) And maybe this is obvious to a pro, yet I’m drawing a big blank about how to test at the pedestal, as you suggest, exactly? With the dog bone plugged into the 50 amp receptacle, I see no place to test. Are you suggesting I do something like pull out the dog bone plug slightly and stick multimeter probes in beside (or alligator clip to) the 1/8” or so of exposed plug prongs for such a test? To me that both dangerous and very scary.

To test at the pedestal BUT NOT IF YOURE INEXPERIENCED IT MAY BE HAZARDOUS 

An electrician would monitor voltage at the pedestals receptacle then place a heavy current load on the circuit and see if voltage drops and how much DONT DO THIS IF YOUR UNSURE OR LACK THE PROPER SAFE EQUIPMENT, HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRCIAN  (yes above I described a method but I no longer do since you're inexperienced and I don't want to see anyone hurt DONT DO IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOTE I thought you ALREADY used a heat gun to load the pedestal and it worked and voltage didn't drop drastically WHICH TELLS ME THE PEDESTAL IS OKAY ???? 

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

Another Relevant (?) Part Replacement:  One curiosity that has been haunting me, and knowledge-seeking question I now pose is this. I have guessed/wondered previously about whether a breaker, especially my main 30 amp WFCO panel breaker, could be bad or otherwise not fully functioning. If I “load test” the main 30 amp breaker and it shows a problem (dramatically decreased voltage), is that likely the problem all along?

It's possible a circuit breaker can GO BAD (be total open or drop voltage under load) and one easy method is to simply replace it HOWEVER if alls well via Inverter power but NOTTTTTTTTTTT shore power that doesnt sound like a bad breaker

 

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

BUT, FYI, you are 100% wrong about one of your assumptions:

“So does the Inverter and shore power system feed the same exact place, the main panels input ??? I tend to think NOT, so here's yet one more unknown mystery or something thats bad .”

I stand by my assumption........Iffffffffff the pedestal and all RV wiring is good but nothing works when connected to shore power at the same place and method where Inverter power is supplied, in which case all does work, I DONT SEE HOW THAT CAN BE THE SAME SPACE OR SAME WIRING METHOD OR EXACT LOCATION........   Thats my story n Ima stickin to it lol  I suspect another unknown possibly bad or resistive connection or location if one method works like the Inverter yet another method such as shore power, assuming its good, does not  ??? Still a mystery to me.. 

 

11 hours ago, jesfl45 said:

Once again, thank you sooooo much. I have been receiving an incredibly valuable electrical education through your questioning and comments. I will value that forever ! ! ! Thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU, to all, again and again. I am indebted forever.

 You're most welcome thanks for the kind words, I try my best.

DISCLAIMER I can't speak for Kirk or Vern (knowledgeable sparkies and gentlemen, probably more experienced than myself, see what they think the problem is) but ONLY for myself based on my experience as an Electrical Engineer of 50 years, an electrical hobbyist of 60 years, a 50 year RV owner, a past used RV dealer and RV and other electrical systems troubleshooter. HOWEVER not being there and with no bad will towards you or to doubt you, I simply can't know for sure what or how you did, so must take it with a grain of salt......I can ONLY try my best to give suggestions or causes of the problem, be it the pedestal or RV park wiring or your RV and how I would test things BUT NOW I THINK ITS BEST FOR YOU NOTTTTTTT TO as its dangerous, you're not experienced and NOT worth risking life or limb so please (me now speaking both as an Attorney and Electrical Engineer) hire an electrician is my best advice

PS this is NOOOOOOO bad reflection on you or myself but ITS IMPOSSIBLE to impart on a novice what took me a lifetime of experience and education to acquire BUT HEY I GAVE IT MY BEST SHOT AND A TON OF TIME AND EFFORT  I'm glad if I was able to help in any way..

Best wishes God Bless and be safe

John T  BSEE,JD

Edited February 25, 2022 by oldjohnt

[oldjohnt]

ONE LAST THOUGHT

Yo Jim, Not being there I can't know any of this for sure so this is ONLY an educated GUESS but FWIW here are my final thoughts which may or may not be valid sitting here in the dark NO WARRANTY

  Ifffffffffffffff the pedestal successfully passed a Valid Load Test in which a high current heat gun under operation DID NOT drop voltage at the Pedestal significantly and the voltages were correct 120 L1 or L2 to Neutral or Ground and 240 L1 to L2 BOTH when open and not much less under load (and RV and heat gun test used the same leg) 

 Ifffffffffffffff all in the RV works when connected to the Inverter at THE SAME PLACE USING THE SAME WIRING METHOD AND CONECTIONS as when connected to shore power

 Ifffffffffffffff this only happened AFTER you had an overheating problem at the RV and plugs or receptacles or cord connections or whatever wherever got burned

IF THIS IS WERE ALL TRUE (I can't know) ???????? it is possible after the overheating the problem may possibly NOT be the Pedestal,,,,,,,,,NOT the dogbone adapter,,,,,,,,,NOT the Panels Main Breaker    BUT INSTEAD  ITS POSSIBLE the problem lies in the RV Power Cord orrrrrrrrrrr one of its Plugs or Receptacles orrrrrrrr one of the connections/splices/junctions/terminals between RV cord plug (which plugs into pedestal) and the main panel input (same place and method Inverter connects) orrrrrrrrrrrrrr the surge protector which I doubt.. ORRRRRRRR grrrrrrrrrrr something so simple its overlooked (watch that be the case lol) 

Sorry but that's about all I can add or have to say NOT being there so take this with a grain of salt BUT USE CAUTION AND HIRE A PROFESSIONAL and keep an open mind the pedestal may or may not be the cause HOWEVER sure it could be and could be intermittent but if its voltage drops UNDER LOAD that sound like a Pedestal or its upstream wiring has a problem 

 Best wishes Jim, take care, use caution, be safe and God Bless

 John T

Edited February 25, 2022 by oldjohnt

[jesfl45]

 

Good afternoon, all,

The mystery problem -- no 120 VAC power from pedestal into the WFCO distribution panel connections for outlets, appliances, etc. -- still exists. Solar system 120 VAC inverter power works fine through the WFCO panel.

I am very hopeful this drawing might take the discussion in this post a step forward.

Mostly because of the photos and the cumbersome posting process, it has taken all day, so far, to complete. And, there are many photos I chose not to post, for now.

This is my simplistic drawing of the 120 VAC power input wiring and components, NOT a wiring diagram:

 Drawing Details:

(1) RV Park Pedestal -- 50 amp only. old, many potential problems, no breaker, clearly not “code,” but RV park is city-owned. City was supposed to repair a nearby 30 amp pedestal 2 months ago. Not happening. Nearest 4-outlet pedestal has home-type dryer (?) plugs as 30 amp outputs and the very, very dark ages 3”x 3” manually pull-out box-type breakers (the type with two fuses on the back of the pull out connection). Only 1 of four outlets works at that pedestal.

Test results previously provided.

Pix: 50 amp pedestal.

 

(2) 50 Amp To 30 Amp Dog Bone Connector -- Brand new, replaced this morning at 8:10 am, never previously used, packaging in tact when opened. I feared my cleaning, bending prongs, etc. of previous dog bone might have damaged that plug. Taking no (even remote) chances.

Pix: 50 amp to 30 amp dog bone connector (new)

 

(3) Progressive Industries, Inc. 30 Amp Portable Surge Protector -- It is operating properly. As a double check, I called the company to discuss.

Load test results previously provided plugged into the surge protector. One pix posted, other documentation pix available. There was only a 3.0 volt power reduction under load of a 1500 watt heater.

Pix: Progressive surge protector, proper “test lights” lights on.

 

(4) Main RV 120 VAC Power Cord -- Was 25 feet new, now probably 20 feet because I cut off 2+ feet on both ends to assure no wire damage from previous RV twist-lock plug overheating. New high-quality 30 amp plug on one end and the SmartPlug (female) Input connector on the other. Rewired 2 times on 30 amp plug end and 3 times on SmartPlug end . . . just checking myself and assuring 100% everything was perfect.

Previous continuity tests of the power cable wires with new connectors at both ends = 0.00.

Pix: Power cord SmartPlug connection rear of RV.

 

(5) SmartPlug 30 Amp -- This new connector far superior to two previous RV twist lock connectors. Can even see that prongs actually fully connect in SmartPlug, unlike twist-lock plugs where female connector only touches 1/2 of male plug. Twist-lock plugs, I learned the hard way, are made to overheat. SmartPlug specs online.

Pix: Inside SmartPlug connection before permanent installation in rear of RV (difficult to photograph when installed.

 

(6) Temporary Test Cable -- Wired around Coachmen’s old 10/2+G Romex wire (orange casing) that ran through the floor, not visible, because of worry about state of that old wire. Made an 8-foot length temp cable for use from SmartPlug power-in location to WFCO panel. Why? Two reasons: (a) eliminates one other possible problem (old in-floor wiring); and (b) makes it easier to connect to the WFCO power panel when switching between power input sources -- solar system inverter power and 120V AC RV park pedestal power.

 

Power Pedestal 120 Volts Direct Connection

Pix: Temporary cable directly connected/hard-wired to WFCO distribution panel via temporary twist-on wire connectors. Power is on through pedestal to and through temp cable and to the main 30 amp breaker. Voltage reading of 120+ volts was true at rear of WFCO panel and also in front with probes to the main 30 amp breaker. Yet, no sub-breakers working.

 

Solar System Inverter 120 Volts Direct Connection

Pix: Solar system inverter power directly connected/hard-wired to WFCO power panel via (grey) 10/2+G heavy-duty outdoor Romex wire (approx 25’) from solar system in front of RV to WFCO power panel near RV rear. Continues to work properly as it has for weeks.

 

Note: The small open linoleum space below wire connections is where the old transfer switch was installed before removal and trashing.

 

 Temporary Process (For Testing) To Connect/Disconnect Different Power Sources; 4 Easy Steps:

(1) Disconnect 120 VAC power cable from pedestal; disconnect 12 volt system with master switch at batteries.

(2) Unscrew connectors from three (3) wire connections: black, white, and green.

(3) Connect alternate power source cable and connect 2-each of 6 wire ends by color -- black, white and green -- to each other using screw-on wire connectors.

(4) Turn on 12-volt master switch at batteries; plug in 120 volt power cable to RV park power pedestal.

As I have said many times, NOTHING else is connected in any way, period. For good testing (not necessarily electrical), I was taught one goes through a process of elimination. I purposely eliminated EVERYTHING (temporarily)!

But, the Mystery Problem still exists.

Beyond my continuing worry about the old pedestal, I also now am wondering about the WFCO panel breakers? I did the only possible (for me) test of each sub-breaker. It was not a “load test” because there’s no way to “load” circuits with no power, that I know of. The results were slightly curious to me, however. It’s a subject for different focus at another time.

Thanks for any new ideas about how to solve my continuing mystery problem. It would be nice to have my pedestal power back, especially on days like today at 88 degrees outside.

 Jim (jesfl45)

 

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

How about doing something VERY simple. Borrow a generator from a neighbor if you don't have one and instead of plugging into the pedestal, plug into the generator and see if it works. If it does, the problem is the pedestal. You might have 120 volts at the pedestal, but it might not be capable of delivering the amperage you need.

[oldjohnt]

23 hours ago, GeorgiaHybrid said:

How about doing something VERY simple. Borrow a generator from a neighbor if you don't have one and instead of plugging into the pedestal, plug into the generator and see if it works. If it does, the problem is the pedestal. You might have 120 volts at the pedestal, but it might not be capable of delivering the amperage you need

Good thought Georgia, if another power source such as an adequate sized Generator (connected to his shore power plug) made things work fine but NOT when connected to the Pedestal in question, sounds like the parks Pedestal or wiring to it is the problem, but if still not operative using a known good power source, the RV's cord or wiring or a plug or a receptacle or connection/splice may be the cause ?????  A few of us suggested he try a different pedestal, but unfortunately he doesn't have enough cord. One other test method would be to load test the pedestal and if it passed then it's okay so the problem is in/at his RV shore power wiring and connection/system.   As he tracks the voltage back at different locations between the panel and shore power plug while UNDER LOAD I'm sure he will find the problem where the voltage drop is taking place grrrrrrrrrr lol Sounds like the panel and its breakers are NOT the problem since it works fine when fed buy his Inverter....

 Best wishes everyone, good idea Georgia

 John T 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by oldjohnt

[jesfl45]

 

Georgia & John T, 

Yep, running a generator seems like a good idea to me. Especially in light of the still-no-solution status for the mystery problem.

Generator Test

Georgia, FYI, I have an on-board 3600 kw Onan propane. In the beginning of this marathon (Feb. 12), the generator complicated this forum's discussion with comments about the genset and the transfer switch. SO, I eliminated both. Genset needs service (my fault), so I disconnected it COMPLETELY (actually cut wire to transfer switch), not really wanting to run it until after that service. Removed the transfer switch, which was literally in the trash 9 days ago, gone forever.

That left a clean, simple no possible complications wiring connection from power pedestal to WFCO power panel, per my previously posted simplistic drawing.

But, this afternoon, I decided that running a generator was a very good testing idea worth a shot. So, I decided to go ahead and fire up my Onan, even before the needed service (small risk, I hope).

I disconnected the solar system inverter power and reconnected the genset (alone, to the single power input, per drawing and photos). But, here's the rub. The genset is wired into the system's WFCO power distribution panel. It will not fire up unless that panel is "live" with power. The panel is dead when the genset is connected. And, I'm suffering from electrical-problem-burnout after two weeks of trying to find a solution. So, I'm not about to touch any of the genset wiring because it all worked perfectly before this current problem arose.

What I am thinking, however, is I will find the manager of the RV park and see if he knows anyone with a portable generator. Even testing with that will require some kind of temporary wiring, because I am not un-wiring my new SmartPlug 30 amp power cord connector after so many voltage and continuity tests of it. IF I can find a portable genset to borrow, I'll test and let you know the results. That won't happen until tomorrow, earliest.

Wiring Test (Additional)

John T, always keeping in mind your penchant for a bad (something) being the problem, I realized (when wiring/unwiring the genset a while ago) that there was one short wire I had never checked for continuity or any visible damage.

That is the short 10/3 cable that connects into the WFCO panel to/through which I have been hard-wiring one or the other power source -- solar system generator or pedestal power. That 14", or so, short wire was once the single output cable from the transfer switch (gone) to the WFCO panel.  This afternoon, I disconnected that cable from the WFCO panel and main 30 amp breaker. I pulled it out and tested continuity, and it was all 0.00. (I know voltage worked through the old wire because I previously read 120+ volts tested with multimeter prongs on the breaker input connection wire and the main system ground . . . and I've been using it to input solar inverter power for 2 weeks!

BUT, that cable was obviously OLD (18+ years) and kinda' nasty looking, even though I saw no signs of overheating when looking closely. SO I replaced that wire, too. And, along the way I checked every other 120 volt wire connection in the WFCO box. 

You know the rest. Reconnected the power pedestal. Same deal as for 2 weeks. No 120 volt power. Disconnected power pedestal and reconnected solar system inverter, 120+ volt power throughout RV, wall outlets, appliances, etc., etc.

But there's more, as they say. I pulled out the old 2-pole 30/15 MAIN breaker in this old RV. It looked as grungy as the power-in cable I replaced, with rust on rivets holding the outside casing together, etc. I already ordered last week a replacement breaker (hard to find) for that main Cutler-Hammer BD3015 (small size). It should arrive early this coming week. I have no idea whether that breaker could be "a" problem or "the" problem, but after looking at the old one (which, by the way, is working fine with 120+ volt solar inverter power right now), I feel good about making that main breaker replacement for the future. Can do no harm.

LOAD Test

To your "AS he tracks the voltage back at different location while under load Im sure he will find the problem where voltage drop is taking place grrrrrrrrrr lol."

Toward that "tracking," I have just figured out how I can jury-rig a 30-amp female receptacle to the end of the new 30 amp cable I just wired into the WFCO panel. With that receptacle, I can plug in my 30 amp-to-15 amp adapter and run a load test from "Point A" the direct connect wire to the WFCO panel to "Point B" the RV park power pedestal. That's the entire length of everything involved with pedestal power to the RV, except the WFCO power distribution panel. It will be the exact same test as run previously from pedestal to surge protector.

The previous load test (photo posted previously) showed only 3.0 volts drop when I turned on the 1500 watt heater. That test distance was only through 3 components -- (1) the surge protector backward through (2) 50 amp to 30 amp dog bone, and to (3) pedestal receptacle (see drawing). So clearly there was/is no load problem in that partial section of the power input line.

Tomorrow's "full length" test of every wire, connector, component in the 30 amp power input line will either prove (BAD) there is a problem with something between the surge protector and the WFCO panel, or (GOOD) everything in the entire length of the 30 amp power-in line carries the load with no serious or bothersome voltage loss.

If the entire length of all of my components and wiring -- all already tested for voltage and continuity individually -- shows no significant voltage drop, then we finally know it is NOT a problem with any of the 30 amp power input wiring.

BACK TO PEDESTAL -- That leaves the mystical problem as caused by the (very old) power pedestal acting badly and doing wonky, mischievous things to make my life miserable? Still possible, but I sure as heck am not opening it up to even look, let alone test inside.

OR, WFCO POWER DISTRIBUTION PANEL -- (is this even possible?) Some screwy problem with the WFCO panel, the main 30/15 breaker, or something else in the power panel?

As far as I have learned from everything posted here, there really are not any other possible causes . . . it has to be RV park pedestal, wiring to the WFCO power panel, or (maybe?) the WFCO panel itself? There is nothing else in existence to blame (pending tomorrow's full-length load test).

I'll let you know the results tomorrow. I'm very eager see what happens.

Thank you, ALL, once again ! ! ! The value of your knowledge and gracious assistance cannot be overstated. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

Jim (jesfl45)

 

[Kirk W]

27 minutes ago, jesfl45 said:

As far as I have learned from everything posted here, there really are not any other possible causes . . . it has to be RV park pedestal, wiring to the WFCO power panel, or (maybe?) the WFCO panel itself? There is nothing else in existence to blame (pending tomorrow's full-length load test).

All that I can say at this point is that with all of the modifications that you have made to your RV's 120V power system, I have completely lost track of what you have now. I can tell you that if your problem is what you describe with the power pedestal then it is something that I have never seen in my years of electrical service work. 

I do not want to be negative, but I am still suspect that there is a problem somewhere in the modifications that have been done since this project began. 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Don't re-wire ANYTHING. If you can borrow a gen set that is capable of 30 amp service (or two smaller generators that can be sync'd to provide 30 amps). Just start the gen set and take the 30 amp plug you have plugged into the park pedestal and plug that cord into the gen set.  That way you will be able to do two things, test you wiring of the parts you have replaced and the park pedestal. If everything works fine, then the pedestal is bad. If it still doesn't work, something on your rig is screwed up.

[oldjohnt]

Jim hang in there you're gonna get this. Once you rule the Pedestal IN or OUT by:

 1) Applying a heavy load to it (same leg that feeds RV via dogbone) and see if the voltage drops drastically or not ?????? If so, it's the RV parks problem to fix,,,,,,,, if NOT its the RV but there aren't that many places and things (Cord, Plug, Receptacle, Junction, Splice, Connection, Wires) to check looking for the bad voltage dropping item EASY PEASEY.

PS if when you plugged your heat gun into the pedestal voltage didn't drop much, that sounds like the pedestal is okay so it's an RV problem, just saying no warranty not being there... 

2) If when your plug is inserted into a Genset (or different pedestal) all works fine, that says your RV wiring and system is good, so back to the pedestal or its upstream wiring HOWEVER if still not working, its back to the RV wiring/system.

NOTE if a cord or wires were bad to a certain degree so maybe there were only a few strands remaining the resistance could still be low and not tell you everything. ITS THE HARMFUL VOLTAGE DROP UNDER LOAD THAT MATTERS

NOTE if everything works fine if the Inverter feeds the panel (at same location and method as when Shore Power does, correct ??) that cuts towards the panel and its breakers are okay.

NOTE if there's NO VOLTAGE AT ALL or LOW VOLTAGE to the panel caused by an upstream problem, that can cause low or no voltage to the branch breakers, again things still don't work grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

DARN IF I CAN SAY HERE IN THE DARK GRRRRRRRRRRR but that overheating issue you had and any later repairs (good I trust) ?? could have caused the damage (cord, plug, receptacle, junction, splice, wire) even if NOT plainly visible to the eye.

Wish you had another substitute 30 Amp Cord and Plug to go DIRECT from pedestal to the main panel input to see what happens ????? That would rule a lot in or out, worth a try hey !!! 

 

PS  Hey Jim, up above you stated """.... With the main 30 amp breaker on, however, there is NO POWER to any of the sub-breakers, when turned on/off one-by-one. This is consistent and tested many, many times even going back to the point when the power was still connected through the old transfer switch. Same result. No power in sub-breakers. (Transfer switch now completely removed from 120 VAC system and trashed, a memory only.)"""

I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU

 When there was "NO POWER" to any of the sub breakers when turned on as you state, WAS THERE POWER IN AND OUT OF THE 30 AMP MAIN ?????   Ifffffffffff so and ifffffffffffff the connection to the WFCO was the same place you wire the Inverter and it does work THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE TO ME grrrrrrrrr You talk about the front and rear of the WFCO I believe and that troubles me not being regarding the same connection point and method for Inverter or Shore Power, but if there's 120 at in and out of main BUT ZERO ON BRANCH BREAKERS WHEN ON SHORE POWER 

                                          NOW THATS TROUBLESOME  AS (*&^%$# lol

Working on Inverter but NOT via Shore Power and on Shore Power there's no voltage (with main ON) at any branch breakers begs the question: IS SHORE POWER VIA THE PEDESTAL DELIVERING ANYTHING TO THE WFCO WHEN WIRED EXACT SAME AS IF THE INVERTER WAS FEEDING THE WFCO ?? If there's good voltage out of the pedestal but NONE to any branch breakers the problem may not be so much a faulty resistive voltage dropping connection AS NO CONNECTION AT ALL such as a bad/open cord or plug or receptacle or wire or splice or junction hmmmmmmmmmm lol   

 

 You can do this, good luck be safe don't take any risk

John T

Edited February 27, 2022 by oldjohnt

[oldjohnt]

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

I do not want to be negative, but I am still suspect that there is a problem somewhere in the modifications that have been done since this project began

Hey Kirk, fellow sparky that's NOT necessarily being negative, in my years I saw the same thing happen and more than once lol

John T 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Guys, he still needs to eliminate the pedestal as the problem. If that is done, then you can at least isolate the issue to the park or the trailer. I understand that he doesn't have enough cord to reach to another pedestal but with everything he has already bought, you can go buy a 50 foot, 30 amp extension cord for less than $100 and go plug into another pedestal that is working. Until that BASIC test is done, you are just shooting in the dark here. Either that or borrow a gen set.

Either way, he needs to get that basic step out of the way before anyone can help him.

[jesfl45]

 

Good morning gentlemen,

THERE IS A NEW "ODDITY" (to me) that I did not previously notice . . . until after my "full-length-of-30 amp-input wiring" test failed this morning. I could send many photos, but won't.

The BOTTOM LINE is that with my "testing-only 30 amp female receptacle" hard-wired to the main 30 amp cable, there was 122.2 volts, as you see in the following pix. Again, this is a direct connection, per the previous drawing from the power pedestal to the point where I make hard-wired connections for whichever power source I was using.

Light blue = 30 amp test plug; yellow = 30 amp to 15 amp adapter; plus the obvious 3-way 15 amp/120 volt plug.

Power is to/in the plug, as you see. When plugging in (a) heater, and (b) heat gun . . . NEITHER HAD POWER even though the multimeter read 122.2 volts at that moment in the same 3-way plug to which the heater and heat gun were connected.

How the H--- is that possible?

Then I began testing backwards toward the pedestal, AGAIN. Same voltage +/- at (a) SmartPlug connection to RV; (b) Progressive surge protector, (c) 50 amp 30 amp dog bone, and (d) pedestal receptacle.

BUT, here's the conundrum. I pulled out my phone to look at the previously sent pix of the pedestal LOAD TEST I did a couple of days ago. Pix downloaded again below.

With no load on pedestal through only the 50/30 dog bone and surge protector, 118.4 volts. Progressive surge protector test lights on OK.

 

Moments later: 1500 watt load (heater attached), voltage down 2.5 volts (sorry, I said 3.0 volts previously).

 

Notice the difference? I sure did not until this morning.

ODDITY: The Progressive Industries test lights are completely OFF when the 1500 watt load is added; yet there's still power through the surge protector with only the 2.5 volts decrease.

I ran the same test again this morning. Same result. Surge protector test lights on with no load, test lights OFF when both 750 watts and 1500 watts load added.

Any idea why?

Then I started thinking through the whole 30 amp power input connections -- wiring and adapters.

I realized these two are the same:

(1) This morning's full-length 30 amp power-in test: test:  voltage tests OK in 3-way plug, but nothing works when plugged-in?

(2) This morning's (and many previous) tests of 30 amp power to the WFCO distribution show 122 volts TO the main breaker; but, no power in sub-breakers?

(John T, I don't really know how to test if power is getting through the main 30 amp breaker? That's a limit to my knowledge. When I tested the breaker, I put the positive prong of the multimeter to the black wire at the screw connection to the main 30 amp breaker, and the negative multimeter probe to the green ground connection on the ground block in the box. Every test has been 120+ volts.)

So, (1) and (2) examples show voltage but no power.

Jumpcut to the pix of Progressive surge protector.

(3) Is the "loaded power OK" multimeter reading, BUT Progressive TEST LIGHTS OUT the same as (1) and (2)? There is 120+ volts showing, but through the rest of the 30 amp power input wiring, nothing working? 

Perhaps a pattern?

Which with my limited knowledge, leads me back to the pedestal as the cause of this problem?. 

Can an RV park pedestal work OK, test OK (multimeter), and still have something screwed up inside that will cause the 3 oddities above?

Thoughts? Why does this happen?

Last night and this morning, I've read more about pedestal power problems. The issue of reversed connections came up, but I couldn't find a good explanation?  Can a pedestal have two connections reversed -- i.e. hot/ground or hot/neutral -- and still work and test OK with a multimeter?

Yes, I got out my plug-in tester again and checked at the dog bone and surge protector. Both read with two lights = correct wiring. So how could it be the pedestal?

OR, Do I need to contact Progressive Industries again, this time about why their test lights going out under load?

Kirk: I agree there is always a possibility I have made a mistake with wiring somewhere? In the case of this 120 volt power problem, however, we're only dealing with 4 connections that I had anything to do with -- one is the screw-on wire connection you see in pix; two are the in/out of the new SmartPlug, and the fourth is the new 30 amp male plug I added to the main cable just to be sure everything is perfect. (I opened up that new plug again an hour ago to check.) The SmartPlug connectors color-coded and the plug is labeled with unmistakable BLACK (+) and WHITE (-). Those 3 connections I made are good, 100%. I'd have to be very very drunk for them not to be, and I don't drink. Elsewhere in the RV over time, I would not be surprised to find mistakes I made. I'll get back to you on that . . . 

Georgia, Given today's testing problem, and my newly discovered oversight on the previous pedestal load test, my focus is back on the blankety-blank pedestal as the source of the problem. I just don't know how the pedestal could be the cause of all this?

Still waiting on park manager about a genset to borrow. Last week, most out of curiosity, I actually got out my 25' tape and measured to the next pedestal that worked and tested with proper power. But, then, numerous tests showed my current 50 amp pedestal OK, too. That nearest pedestal is actually over 200 feet away. (Long explanation, short version, park is hybrid mobile home park. I am temp here, already 45 days longer stay than hoped/planned. I'm on a distant corner with only directly wired mobile homes around. (RV power pedestals -- and that is a very gracious label for the dinosaur electrical hookups here with dryer connections for 30 amp power -- here, are few and far between.)

Also discussed moving to a different site with the park manager. I'm now resolved to doing that on Tuesday if the pedestal is the most likely consensus mystery problem source?

-- It is not any of the three wiring connections. (John T, I'm not going to buy and cut up another new 30 amp power cable to run directly through the door(?) to the WFCO panel. Tired of spending $$$'s trying to fix this. Will move instead.) 

-- I don't understand how it could be the main breaker or WFCO box? And it probably is not, because when the solar inverter power is hard-wired instead of the shore power, everything in the WFCO box works fine. (Back to the pedestal as the problem?)

-- I also don't understand how it could be the pedestal, either, after all of the testing (again this morning). But it is a dinosaur and very old, so maybe?

(Please remember, everything had been working fine for slightly over 2 months, until the overheating of the 30 amp connection to the RV. Could that overheating caused something to change inside the pedestal? Or did something inside the pedestal cause the overheating? Another mystery.)

What is going on? What am I missing?

Thanks to all, again. Very frustrated here.

Jim (jesfl45)

 

 

 

[Randyretired]

Jim, Load related problems such as the one you are having are actually quite common.  Typically these are caused by a bad connection or faulty device such as a breaker.  The voltage appears to be intact without a load but the actual connection isn't good enough to support a load.  If you have ever had a dirty battery cable connection in a car and cleaned the battery cable to fix it it that is like what is happening. The heating problem you described often can evolve into a burnt or bad connection.  I have seen breakers fail like this also.  Switches and even receptacles can have this problem.  The question here is where is it?  Others have provided methods to find this and some have even suggested points to check.  Isolating a problem like this can be very frustrating because voltage reading without load are not very helpful.  I have just been mostly watching as you have some good advice and knowledgeable people helping already and I will just try to add as I can.  From what I have read there appears to be a number of likely suspected locations.  The pedestal could be one but the overheating may have been a sign of a problem.  Possibly a bad or dirty connection when wiring was changed.  Or just about anything in the circuit.  I have listed some of the ways I would go about finding the problem as have others.  This may be a frustrating problem to find but you have some pretty knowledgeable people on your side and I don't think more is better.  So I will only post when I think my $.02 might help.

When you are checking voltages under load somewhere depending on the problem you will find a place where the voltage doesn't sag or disappear under load and you will know that the problem is between that and your receptacles.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Randyretired
Add last paragraph.

[oldjohnt]

5 hours ago, Randyretired said:

Jim, Load related problems such as the one you are having are actually quite common.  Typically these are caused by a bad connection or faulty device such as a breaker.  The voltage appears to be intact without a load but the actual connection isn't good enough to support a load.

AMEN Randy thanks for your thoughts, looks like ALL us sparkies agree and have stated the same several times..Fortunately his breakers appear to be working fine when fed by his Inverter meaning the panel is okay so back to an RV (cord, plug, receptacle, splice, junction, wire not connected or connected to wrong place) orrrrrrrr Pedestal problem or Surge Protrector..

 

5 hours ago, Randyretired said:

From what I have read there appears to be a number of likely suspected locations.  The pedestal could be one but the overheating may have been a sign of a problem.  Possibly a bad or dirty connection when wiring was changed

ANOTHER AMEN Thanks Randy we all agree... 

PS Yo Jim, just for the heck of it, try it when NOT USING your Surge Protector !!!!!

 John T

Edited February 28, 2022 by oldjohnt