Help please! Lost power to all outlets and appliances!

[Danfreda1]

This is on the HDT section of this forum

[Kirk W]

56 minutes ago, Rover said:

Then we move to the Three Lakes WMA NW of Kenansville and will probably stay there until February 21st.

We were RV volunteers at Three Lakes WMA back in 2003.

[Chad Heiser]

2 hours ago, Rover said:

Actually we will be going thru Tennessee on our way to Indiana in April but it won’t be until after the 17th. I guess it depends on when your rally is.

Vicki

 

The rally starts on the 23rd.  I plan to arrive at Deer Run on the 22nd.

I have an appointment in Elk City Oklahoma the 13-15th and then planned to just hang out and meander over to the rally between those dates.

[Rover]

20 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

The rally starts on the 23rd.  I plan to arrive at Deer Run on the 22nd.

I have an appointment in Elk City Oklahoma the 13-15th and then planned to just hang out and meander over to the rally between those dates.

Sounds like we might be able to arrange some kind of meet up when it gets closer to time.

 I do have another question for you about our Multiplus 3k Inverters. We finally got a call back today from the company that installed our system (although the technician that actually did our install is on vacation). A different technician said that when on 30 amp our Inverters should each be set to 15 and then when on 50 amp set to 25. We both remember the tech who installed telling us differently. What do you advise as the correct settings? And do we need to change any settings when we are strictly boondocking? 
 

Thanks,

Vicki and Mark

 

[Chad Heiser]

13 hours ago, Rover said:

What do you advise as the correct settings? And do we need to change any settings when we are strictly boondocking? 

I am going to give a somewhat long answer to this to try to explain what is correct and why it is correct.

If you are plugged into 50 amp, the AC current limit should be set to 50 amp.  A 50 amp RV pedestal will provide two legs of 50 amp, so each inverter will have 50 amps available to it.  

I think I remember you guys telling me your inverters are programmed to work independently.  If that is the case, then anytime you plug into less than 50 amp, you should set the AC current limit to half of whatever you are plugged into (15 amp for a 30 amp pedestal, 10 amp for a 20 amp outlet, etc.).  

This is not ideal, but it is the best way to mitigate potential power issues.  This is because in those types of power sources there is only one leg of power providing all the amperage. When the inverters are programmed to work independently (in parallel) like yours, then that single leg of power gets sent through both inverters.  This is not my preferred way of programming dual inverters because it potentially limits power in the RV and causes potential issues with the power assist feature of the inverters.

Here is why I am not a fan of programming dual inverters in parallel.  When plugged into a single leg source of power, you can’t necessarily predict which leg of your 50 amp panel (or which inverter) is going to be using power unless you have memorized all the circuits in your coach and which legs they are on.  If you set the AC current limit to 30 amps on a 30 amp pedestal and you draw 20 amps on line 1 (inverter 1) and then you turn something else on and try to draw 20 amps on line 2 (inverter 2) you will blow the breaker at the pedestal because you are now trying to draw 40 amps.  With the inverter AC current limit set at 30 amps, the power assist feature never kicks in on either inverter because neither inverter saw more than 20 amps pass through it.  

In that same scenario with the AC current limit set to 15 amps (half of the available 30 amps from the pedestal), inverter 1 will pass through 15 amps and power assist to provide the additional 5 amps needed on that leg.  When the load on leg two is then turned on, inverter 2 will also pass through 15 amps and power assist to provide the additional 5 amps needed.  In this case, you won’t (theoretically) blow the pedestal breaker.

Victron power assist is typically set to a factor of 2.  This means that the inverter will assist up to twice what the AC input current limit is set at.  Set it at 30 and the inverter will try to provide up to 60 amps (30 amps of pass through power and another 30 amps of assisted power).  In that particular case the inverter would actually overload because it can only handle up to 50 amps of power total.  When the AC current limit is set to 15 amps, the inverter will provide up to 30 amps (15 amps of pass through power and 15 more amps of assisted power).  When the AC current limit is set to 10 amps, the inverter will provide up to 20 amps (10 amps of pass through power and 10 more amps of assisted power).  And so on.

Now back to your specific situation with dual inverters programmed to work independently (in parallel).  As I described above, you need to set the AC current limit to half the available power when plugged into single phase power (30 amp pedestal or less).  So when plugged into a 30 amp pedestal and the inverters are set to 15 amp AC current limit, you have a total of 60 amps available in the rig.  You have 15 amps of pass through power available on each leg (inverter - for a total of 30 amps) and up to another 15 amps of assisted power from each inverter (for an additional 30 amps).  In order to get all 60 amps, your loads between line 1 and line 2 have to be perfectly balanced (which rarely is the case).  If the loads are out of balance, then you may end up with less than 60 amps available and you may overload one of the inverters.

I personally prefer to program dual inverters to work in opposing phases so that they work together.  When you program the inverters to work in split phase, then they work like a 50 amp power pedestal and always proved 120/240 volt power.

If the inverters are programmed this way, when plugged into a 50 amp power pedestal you would set the AC current limit to 50 amps (same as the independent programming).  When you are plugged into less than a 50 amp power pedestal, you set the AC current limit to the same as whatever you are plugged into.  This is because the inverter on line 1 will pass that full power through and the inverter on line two will only invert power in a 180 degree power phase.  So inverter 1 passes the full shore power through and inverter 2 is always inverting (180 degrees out of phase from inverter 1) and has no shore power available to it.   This way your system will always have 120/240 volt power even when the source is only 120 volt.  

By doing this, inverter 1 will provide up to 60 amps (30 amps pass through and up to 30 amps power assist, but really 20 amps for a total of 50 amps which is the limit of the inverter), or twice what the AC current limit is set to.  Inverter 2 will provide up to an additional 3000 watts of power or up to 25 amps on line 2 of inverted power.  In this case that is up to 85 amps (really 75 amps) of total power, regardless of how the loads are balanced.  You also get the added benefit of being able to run 240 volt appliances from any power source (which may not matter if you don’t have any 240 volt appliances, but the ability is there).

When programmed this way, inverter 2 is always drawing from the batteries when plugged into less than a 50 amp power pedestal.  Inverter 1 will pass whatever shore power is available to loads and use whatever power is not being used by loads to charge the batteries.  If you are running high continuous loads, you could potentially drain the batteries even when plugged into shore power.  That could happen with the other method of programming as well though.  Inverter 2 will only act as a charger when plugged into a 50 amp pedestal.  When plugged into anything less than 50 amp (120 volt only source), it will only invert, not charge.

Hopefully this all makes sense.  I’d be happy to talk with you in more detail over the phone to see which programming method would best meet your needs.  There is a little bit more, but these are the highlights.

I’d also be happy to meet up with you guys in Tennessee.  We can talk more about that as it gets closer.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Chad Heiser

[Rover]

WOW Chad! Thanks for that very thorough explanation! Mark hasn’t read it yet as we are on the road to our next stop but it makes sense to me. Most of our load is carried by inverter 1 with very little on inverter 2 so using opposing programming would be much better I think. 
 

Is this something we can change? Just a programming change and not a wiring change? Maybe with your guidance on a phone call? 
 

Thanks again for taking the time for such a great explanation!
Vicki

 

[Chad Heiser]

12 hours ago, Rover said:

Is this something we can change? Just a programming change and not a wiring change? Maybe with your guidance on a phone call? 
 

Thanks again for taking the time for such a great explanation!
Vicki

 

Your welcome.  

Assuming everything was wired correctly, it would be a programming change only.  

The programming change isn’t something an end user should typically try though.  It is fairly specialized and requires several steps to accomplish.  It can be done remotely through VRM, but if something fails during the remote process it will require someone to physically touch the system programming with a specialized communication device and a laptop.  

It isn’t likely to fail, but it can happen.  The system would be nonfunctional until the programming was corrected locally if the remote process failed.  I also wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it remotely without knowing the physical wiring configuration is correct.  It most likely is, but I would want to confirm it.

I have done the programming remotely on systems I have installed.  This way I know the physical configuration will support the program set up.  (It works quite well.)  I have yet to have one fail, but I like to have backups in place just in case.

If we do meet up, I could do the programming change in a few minutes after confirming the wiring configuration will support it.

[Rover]

8 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

Your welcome.  

Assuming everything was wired correctly, it would be a programming change only.  

The programming change isn’t something an end user should typically try though.  It is fairly specialized and requires several steps to accomplish.  It can be done remotely through VRM, but if something fails during the remote process it will require someone to physically touch the system programming with a specialized communication device and a laptop.  

It isn’t likely to fail, but it can happen.  The system would be nonfunctional until the programming was corrected locally if the remote process failed.  I also wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it remotely without knowing the physical wiring configuration is correct.  It most likely is, but I would want to confirm it.

I have done the programming remotely on systems I have installed.  This way I know the physical configuration will support the program set up.  (It works quite well.)  I have yet to have one fail, but I like to have backups in place just in case.

If we do meet up, I could do the programming change in a few minutes after confirming the wiring configuration will support it.

Thanks Chad. Hopefully we will hear from the tech who actually installed our system when he gets back from vacation. It could be our system is already programmed the way we would like. It would be great to have you look it over in April. We’ll be in touch. 
Vicki

 

[rpsinc]

On 12/25/2021 at 6:29 AM, Jack Mayer said:

Thanks Kirk. I'm still around but have not been frequenting these forums. Mainly because I get grief from some people if  I post anything related to trucks. Since we now own a company that builds them, some people seem to feel that any mention of a truck from me means I'm posting commercial things. So I simply don't come here much any more. 

Chad certainly is able to answer any solar and electrical issues.  And if you want a quality solar design and install he is one of the first places I'd go. Other than myself, of course

I am hoping Chad is not on the path to a similar plight as Jack.  I totally understand doing some advertising or marketing, but offering advise mainly due to being recognized as being a resource??  Seems to me that some calibration is needed.

[Kirk W]

8 minutes ago, rpsinc said:

I am hoping Chad is not on the path to a similar plight as Jack. 

Chan has not even come close to violation of any rules/guidelines of these forums, to the best of my knowledge. That same statement applies to Jack as well. Because I monitor the forums twice each day except when traveling and Linda does pretty much the same and the primary admin employee keeps us informed of his actions, I feel quite comfortable in saying that the assistance given by them is most appreciated and I believe only makes these forums better. In my opinion both of the have show great discretion in what they have posted on the Escapee forums and all of their efforts or comments are welcomed and encouraged. 

[rpsinc]

On 12/25/2021 at 6:29 AM, Jack Mayer said:

Mainly because I get grief from some people if  I post anything related to trucks. Since we now own a company that builds them, some people seem to feel that any mention of a truck from me means I'm posting commercial things.

My comment was a reply to what Jack posted above.  I agree with Kirk in that they are well within MY understanding of the rules but apparently some dont agree.  

I am VERY APPRECIATIVE to Jack and Chad in their sharing of knowledge and their generosity.  They dont have to do that.  Their knowledge has value and it generates income for their companies, so we should be appreciative.

I only wish that my skill set(mechanical devices and welding/fabrication) were able to be similarly offered in the same way.  I would gladly contribute.  It is my intention to travel(working my way to semi-retirement) with my welder and gear.  Seems there is often someone in need out there.

 

[RV_]

I have never owned an HDT and after 7 years of fuil-timing with a 36 foot HitchHiker and then a Challenger, we went part time and weekends. I have always seen Jack, and now Chad among others, to be generous and interesting contributors to Escapees, and I have been on these forums from their very start.

I have found here that like anywhere folks are jealous of what they don't have and even resent folks that take the time to show them how to go about getting it. Limited resource thinkers are everywhere and try to rain on the parades of others. especially when you have a bunch of old fahrts, some bitter, gathered in one place. Not to mention a few of the egos we see here.

Regardless us old Escapees still here from the days of Joe and Kay, remember and still give and get SKP hugs, are open and caring/sharing with fellow members. We applaud the success and knowledge others share when we need it instead of being rude. Groups will get the leadership (or lack) that they deserve. There is a great silent majority here of good folks, and Jack is one of the best. 

Jack, and many others, know you are appreciated by folks not suffering from Dunning Kruger, as explained in sixty seconds here by the very funny John Cleese of Monty Python fame:

Safe travels!

[Jack Mayer]

Thanks Derek. I've always enjoyed my discussions with you, both on and off the forum. And I remember the "old" days well. I even remember your "newsletter"/website.  I've been on this forum since 1999, so have seen a few people come and go.