Help with numbers on Sprinter-based coaches?

[Barbaraok]

2 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

Do you avoid B20 or even concern yourself with the amount of ethanol in your diesel fuel with the engine that you have? My truck is a 2003 Cummins and I really haven't given that a lot of thought. 

Just so it is clear, biodiesel does not contain any ethanol, but rather has vegetable or animal fats added, per this link.

No we don't avoid B20 fuels.  We do use branded truck stops where there will be 'fresh' fuel.  Costco, at least in some areas of Washington State, is now selling diesel and the store in north Bellingham appears to be doing a terrific RV business - - several coaches in fueling when we stopped for groceries, etc. a week ago.

Your two paragraphs above seem to be at odds with each other.   First you ask if I worry about ethanol and then you acknowledge that biodiesel doesn't contain ethanol. 

[Kirk W]

1 hour ago, Barbaraok said:

Your two paragraphs above seem to be at odds with each other.   First you ask if I worry about ethanol and then you acknowledge that biodiesel doesn't contain ethanol. 

I suppose that I should edit it. I think many of us think in terms of ethanol because we hear the term with fuels so much. Sorry..................

[Jeff & Suzanne]

Then again, there seems to be two diesel engine types being discussed here. . .the "auto" diesel in the Sprinter and the larger engines used in Class A rigs.  However, the Sprinter manual does OK the use of B5 fuel and warns against using B20 fuel.

 

[sandsys]

6 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

Just so it is clear, biodiesel does not contain any ethanol, but rather has a vegetable or animal fats added, per this link.

True. My point was places that advertise no ethanol in their gasoline usually have no bio products in their diesel either. But I see more billboards advertising no ethanol so I thought I'd offer people that heads up.

Linda Sand

[Barbaraok]

Thing to remember is that when the sticker says B20 that does not mean there is 20% biodiesel in the tank, but up to 20%.  If one is traveling, filling when tank in about 1/2 empty with fresh diesel, chances of every havinga tank completely full of  20% diesel will be minimal.  

[Kirk W]

If you check with PureGas.org you will find a list of stations which sell ethanol free gasoline. I haven't been able to find a website of that type for diesel. 

[sandsys]

On 7/7/2017 at 2:25 PM, Barbaraok said:

Thing to remember is that when the sticker says B20 that does not mean there is 20% biodiesel in the tank, but up to 20%.  If one is traveling, filling when tank in about 1/2 empty with fresh diesel, chances of every havinga tank completely full of  20% diesel will be minimal.  

Would you put regular gasoline in a vehicle that requires premium? After all fuel is fuel, right? Why do you seem to be advocating using a higher degree of bio than my manufacturer indicates? Why would I want to risk injuring my engine to accommodate your percentages? Are you going to pay for my engine repair/replacement? 

Linda Sand

[Barbaraok]

Linda, 

I'm a chemist.  I know the difference between how a gasoline engine works and how a diesel works.  Yes, a premium gas engine will work if some regular is introduced into the tank on occasion.   And, more importantly, I know that lawyers add CYAs especially for biodiesel since the field started out with DYIers using French fryer oils and home made distillation apparatus.  But do what you want.  I suggest that you avoid the west coast as more and more pumps at all sorts of facilities have 'up to 20%' biodiesel stickers.  Amazing that we don't have massive Mercedes pile ups all over the Seattle area, and yes, I'm being very sarcastic 

[Yarome]

I've never run a Mercedes diesel, but just looking at their biodiesel brochure... it seems to me that most issues they are proporting are mainly due to "aged", "gelled", "stagnant" or "improperly processed/stored" biodiesel. The main issue they seem to be addressing is a loss of power/performance with fuels B6-B20. Which... we all know to be an issue with ANY diesel engine.

It even states, "Regularly monitor your engine oil level if you have no choice but to use B20 fuel." I didn't see anywhere in there though that said you'll destroy your engine if you use anything over B5. 

The warranty is what seems to be the most restrictive.. not the engine itself. But maybe their auto diesels do differ a great deal from a standard diesel.

I have to agree with Barb... if it is a serious concern... avoiding B20 is going to be VERY difficult in the West (particularly in the NW) as it is becoming almost a standard at many fill stations.

Some other wording I found interesting: "Fuel with biodiesel content greater than 20%, including B100, is not approved by Mercedes-Benz"

 

[Barbaraok]

The reason for the greater than 20% biodiesel statement is because the big commercial refineries aren't producing that yet.  When they get to mass production of biodiesel that will change.

[I'mdonewiththis forum]

I used to own a '12 VW TDI car. The manual stated "No more than 5% BIO" UNTIL Minnesota went to B-20. I got a letter stating that it would be fine to use up to B-20. Nothing was changed on the car, just a piece of paper changed the "problem". I can tell you that me, my daughter, and my son have all run B-99 with absolutely no issues. This is in a 1996 Cummins, a 1998 Cummins, and a 2006 VW TDI. The only thing I noticed was the slightly less fuel mileage. 20 mpg on diesel, 17 mpg on B-99. From my perspective the ones that refuse or do everything in their power to avoid bio have a preconceived notion that it is harmful to the engine when it is not. All that it will do is clean the fuel system from the tank to injectors. The gunk that it cleans is what plugs the filters not the fuel itself.

[Barbaraok]

Mntom,

OK - where's my LIKE button. 

[Yarome]

14 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

Mntom,

OK - where's my LIKE button. 

X2!

And a spare fuel filter is standard equipment in everyone's tool box anyway, RIGHT!? (If you don't... you SHOULD ) 

[sandsys]

All our Sprinters were 2008 to 2010 models. Apparently, things have changed since then. Not unusual. But, I still hold that following the manufacturer's instructions for your model year is a good thing. Yes, Barb, I know you were a chemist but as far as I know you were never an engine manufacturer and it is often the case that lab theories don't work well in real life. And, Yarome, when your total CCC is 800 pounds for two people, no you do not carry a spare fuel filter. Blanket advice never applies to all situations. Even my own advice.

Linda Sand

[kudzu]

On 7/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, sandsys said:

...Blanket advice never applies to all situations. Even my own advice.

Linda Sand

Right up there with, "No generalization is wholly true, not even this one."

[Barbaraok]

2008-2010 is a world away from diesel Of today.  When the manuals were written in 2008, biodiesel was still in it's infancy.  As refiners have worked with biodiesel, the have been gradually adding more and monitoring performance all over the country.  They don't want engines breaking down, bad for business.

Linda, I taught for several years  at General Motors Institute and did training sessions for development engineers at the Mesa Proving Grounds.  Plus my grad degree is in Chem Eng, with a lot of classes focusing on refinery problems.

 

[Jeff & Suzanne]

Hey. . .don't mess with the Barbaraok!  We are old wino buddies and when she tells me to jump, I say, "Show me the proof!"  She does and I jump. . .just sayin' with a BIG dose of LOL. Now, with "Curmudgeon Dave", Barbaraok's long time partner in science, when he sez jump, I just say "You got it"! (More LOL)   SWMBO and I  have a recall date (driver's side airbag) for "Fawkes" with our local Mercedes Sprinter only shop, and he's good.  I'll ask him about the B5/B20 question and report back.

[sandsys]

21 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

2008-2010 is a world away from diesel Of today.  

Linda, I taught for several years  at General Motors Institute and did training sessions for development engineers at the Mesa Proving Grounds.  Plus my grad degree is in Chem Eng, with a lot of classes focusing on refinery problems.

 

That's why I decided I'd better specify the dates of my experience--things change.

OK, Barb, you are better qualified than I realized. But, when was all that? Are you any more current than my experience?

Linda Sand

[Barbaraok]

Just because one retirees does not mean that one quits reading material in one's areas of interest.  And since we have a diesel engine, reading about how things have progressed over the course of the past 10 years is only natural.  And yes, Dave & I really do talk about science, etc. at dinner, send each other articles/links to read, debate current theories, keep in contact with former students.  We really are quite nerdy at times. 

[Jeff & Suzanne]

2 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Just because one retirees does not mean that one quits reading material in one's areas of interest.  And since we have a diesel engine, reading about how things have progressed over the course of the past 10 years is only natural.  And yes, Dave & I really do talk about science, etc. at dinner, send each other articles/links to read, debate current theories, keep in contact with former students.  We really are quite nerdy at times. 

And, Suzanne and I, who are actors and directors (well, SWMBO is a director) are besties with Barb & Dave!  They impress us with their knowledge of science and their expertise in jazz and wines.  We try to keep up with the occasional song and dance, and attempts at name dropping (Agnes Moorehead, William Shallot, William Shatner, Gary Sinise. . .well, you get the idea).  All this from when I worked as Judge Roy Bean at the original Six Flags Over Texas; and, when we did background acting in Hollywood for a couple of years. 

But, I digress. . .going to the Mercedes Sprinter dealer next week and hope to have his take on B5 and B20 diesel. . .later. . . . . .

[sandsys]

22 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Just because one retirees does not mean that one quits reading material in one's areas of interest.  And since we have a diesel engine, reading about how things have progressed over the course of the past 10 years is only natural.  And yes, Dave & I really do talk about science, etc. at dinner, send each other articles/links to read, debate current theories, keep in contact with former students.  We really are quite nerdy at times. 

OK. I relate to that. Things my Dave and I talk about would amaze some people. I knew you and I would find common ground again somewhere. After all, we've battled before and come out the other side OK.

Linda Sand

[Barbaraok]

45 minutes ago, sandsys said:

OK. I relate to that. Things my Dave and I talk about would amaze some people. I knew you and I would find common ground again somewhere. After all, we've battled before and come out the other side OK.

Linda Sand

[tester123]

On 7/10/2017 at 10:23 PM, Jeff & Suzanne said:

. 

But, I digress. . .going to the Mercedes Sprinter dealer next week and hope to have his take on B5 and B20 diesel. . .later. . . . . .

oh how quickly a year passes!

Jeff/Suzanne, did we get the tiebreaker from your dealer?

[Jeff & Suzanne]

Oops. . .sorry, forgot to ask.  We have put many, many miles since the question came up and just filled up when needed, usually at major brand auto diesel pumps where we don't have to go in to pre-pay.  No Mom & Pop stations.  No problems yet.