Joule Case Battery Module

[maryfair]

I've been looking into the possibility of using a Joule Case Lithium Ion Battery Module as a power source for my 110 volt oxygen concentrator which needs to run 24/7 in our motorhome. Does anyone know if this could work and if it is safe.

Also, could anyone point me to instructions for changing the rig information that shows up below (ours is outdated).  

[jcussen]

6 minutes ago, maryfair said:

I've been looking into the possibility of using a Joule Case Lithium Ion Battery Module as a power source for my 110 volt oxygen concentrator which needs to run 24/7 in our motorhome. Does anyone know if this could work and if it is safe.

Also, could anyone point me to instructions for changing the rig information that shows up below (ours is outdated).  

If it will supply the required power, it will probably work, but no free lunch, you will have to recharge it and replenish all the power the Joule Case used to power your concentrator.

[maryfair]

jcussen,

Thanks for the response. My knowledge of electricity is almost non-existent so I don't know how one would go about determining if it will supply the required power. I do know that electricity is (sadly) not generated by magical thinking so I assumed the Joule Case battery would have to be recharged. I don't know if that can be done from a plug in the coach when it is hooked up to shore power or with the generator.

[mptjelgin]

As far as I can tell, the Joule Case Lithium Ion Battery Modules are simply lithium-ion batteries in a modular form, in some cases coupled to an inverter to provide 110 - 120 volt AC power. So in this sense they are no different than using a lithium-ion battery (or any battery for that matter) along with an inverter.  

These modules are a type of UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) mainly used as backups for computer and technology systems, and they seldom have large enough batteries to provide significant power for long periods of time. That being said, the bigger the battery, the longer you'll be able to supply power. 

So yes, they will power a 110 volt oxygen concentrator. But the key question is "For how long?". This will depend completely on what wattage (or amperage) your oxygen concentrator draws, the total usable amp-hour capacity of the particular battery you are using use, the efficiency of the inverter system, etc.

Do you know the wattage (or amperage draw) of your device. It is likely listed on the device, but that is often the maximum draw. The best way to answer your questions will be to get a device like a Kill A Watt Monitor to measure the power use of your device over a period of time, and then use those numbers to determine your needs. 

[jcussen]

16 minutes ago, maryfair said:

jcussen,

Thanks for the response. My knowledge of electricity is almost non-existent so I don't know how one would go about determining if it will supply the required power. I do know that electricity is (sadly) not generated by magical thinking so I assumed the Joule Case battery would have to be recharged. I don't know if that can be done from a plug in the coach when it is hooked up to shore power or with the generator.

Post the Joule Case model you want, and post the amp or watt draw of the concentrator and we can figure it out.

Edited September 12, 2020 by jcussen

[mptjelgin]

Mary & Pete-

Without having specific numbers for your system, I looked up a common 5L oxygen concentrator (DeVilbiss 525DS) and see that it is rated to draw 310 watts. 

The Joule Starter Package ($700) is rated to provide up to 1200W, so you are good there, and has a battery rated for 500 watt-hours.  This means that if you are drawing 310 watts, that battery will last less than 2 hours before being completely depleted.  To find the amount of time divide the Watt-Hour rating of the battery (500 in this case) by the watts used by the device (310 in this case) and you get 1.6 hours, or about an hour and 36 minutes. And note that completely depleting a battery is generally not recommended, although lithium-ion handles it better than most. So you would figure on using something like 80% of the stated capacity. 

The Joule Flex Package ($1965) has a battery rated at 1500 watt-hours (it uses three battery modules instead of the single module uses in the Starter Package), giving theoretically three times as much use. So you are up to around 4 hours and 48 minutes. 

The most expensive model listed (Pro Package, $3399) has a 4000 watt-hour battery, so theoretically over 12 hours of use with the 310 watt concentrator I used at the very beginning. 

My numbers are based on the DeVilbiss 525DS as an example, but should give you a rough idea of how to look at these issues.  You could put a less expensive system together using different battery types (Golf Cart batteries, for instance) and a separate inverter, but the bottom line questions are how long do you want to be able to operate your oxygen concentrator between charges & how much electricity does it use?  

Also important to note that other battery types like  lead-acid golf cart batteries should only be drawn down to 50% of their capacity for long life. Inverter efficiency also needs to be accounted for. Lots of numbers and math here, but it is really pretty simple once you answer the two specific questions. 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by mptjelgin

[maryfair]

Mark (if Teri did this research, I apologize for the sexist assumption),

Thank you so much for all the information. My concentrator uses approximately 350 watts per hour which would give me 11.428 hours of use with the Joule Pro Package. We are hoping that that is not the best solution we can find. I had hoped to set something up that would power the concentrator for two days and recharge off the generator in one day. I now realize that that was ridiculous. We are going to look into the possibility of adding 2 deep cell batteries or a second generator. We gave some thought to solar but Pete's family lives in an area of upstate New York that literally does not have enough hours of sunshine for solar to be reliable.

Anyway, thank you for your time, we appreciate your help.

[mptjelgin]

48 hours of operation would be a very tall order without generator or solar recharge.  If you bought golf cart batteries to power your project, each pair of golf cart batteries would give you about 3 -  3.5 hours of power at 350 watts.  So you can see that you'd need quite a pile of batteries to do that. The room required and weight would be substantial.  Various configurations of Lithium-ion batteries are available that would take up less room and weigh less, but the cost would be significantly more. 

Such is the nature of appliances that draw significant continuous power. So you have to balance how often you want to run your generator with how many batteries you have. 

As far as changing the information in your signature line, click on the drop-down menu arrow next to your name in the upper right-hand corner of the blue area of the screen. Select Account Settings, and then Signature. 

[jcussen]

For the price of the Pro Package, you could get 3600 watt hours out of 3 battle born 100 a/h and still have $500+ to put into a small inverter and a improved converter for charging lithiums.  Lithiums charge much faster than lead acid, so will cut down on you gen run time..

[oldjohnt]

Dear maryfair, while you claim to be inexperienced if you understand the basics it may help, so here goes.

 The module appears to be a DC battery based energy storage device coupled with an Inverter to change the low DC battery voltage into standard household 120 VAC to power your oxygen device for X amount of time before it requires recharging.

 That same function (store energy and deliver 120 VAC for X time) can be done using your own purchased stand alone DC batteries plus a 120 VAC powered charger (Generator or utility powered) to re charge them, plus the necessary 12 VDC to 120 VAC Inverter OR BETTER a combination Inverter/Charger in a single unit.

 I would compare the cost of      A) Batteries plus an Inverter/Charger

                                                          The module you described (Batteries plus Inverter/Charger all in one handy unit) 

For someone inexperienced the module (if adequate capacity???) would be easier but cost wise buying your own batteries plus an Inverter/Charger may be best.

Flooded Lead Acid or AGM are much cheaper, but they weigh a lot more, require longer to charge, and can only  be discharged to 50%

Lithium cost a lot more up front , but are lighter, charge faster, and can be discharged deeper before recharging

Instantaneous POWER IN WATTS = Volts X Amps, ENERGY is Volts x Amps (IE Watts) X Time 

ENERGY in Watt or Amp Hours to power the device = running Watts x Hours of use IE if it were 200 Watts and had to run 24 hours that's 4800 Watt Hours or for 12 volt batteries 400 battery Amp Hours of energy storage. A typical Lithium may be 12 volts at 100 Amp Hours for maybe $900 each or $3,600 for 400 Amp Hours. You would also need an Inverter/Charger of X capacity which a Generator of X capacity or the utility could power.

HOWEVER to make an informed decision you need to know how many Amp (or Watt) Hours of battery ENERGY storage is required. Without having all the necessary data, somehow only a couple deep cycle batteries isn't going to do the job. NOTE two 6 Volt Flooded Lead Acid Trojan T-105 Deep Cycle Golf Cart batteries in series would give you 225 Amp Hours of which 50% or 112 is useable, cost maybe under $300. A single 12 Volt Lithium would give you 100 Amp Hours of which 80 or more is useable at a cost of maybe $900+. The Lithium is again lighter requiring less space and can be charged faster YOUR MONEY YOUR CHOICE. EITHER still needs an Inverter/Charger so your Generator or plugged to shore power can recharge the batteries.   

Based on your energy requirements and a module or your own batteries plus an Inverter, the number of hours a generator of X capacity may have to run could be computed. 

Sorry for more theory then any spoon fed answer, but there are just too many variables and unknowns here. Perhaps investing in batteries and an Inverter/Charger "might be" the wiser choice.

John T

Edited September 13, 2020 by oldjohnt

[Bill Joyce]

You can buy a Kill-A-Watt meter, available at some hardware stores and Amazon - https://smile.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/, to test how many watt-hours the oxygen concentrator actually uses over a period of time and really know what you need.  (I was surprised to see the Kill A Watts cost in the $40 range now, since they used to be about $20.)   

Kill-A-Watt's or similar devices, are very useful when you are trying to size battery/inverter combinations.  

[maryfair]

Thank you Mark, jcussen, John T. and Bill Joyce. I am working on digesting all the information you have provided. Due to what you've told me about recharge time and the weights of different types of batteries, it would seem that the lithium ion set up would be better although more expensive. It may be that this is simply not doable for us.

At the moment I am trying to wrap my brain around this:

3 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

Instantaneous POWER IN WATTS = Volts X Amps, ENERGY is Volts x Amps (IE Watts) X Time 

I know my concentrator (110 volt) uses 350 watts per hour. So, if I needed 12 hours of operation I would need a set up capable of producing 4200 Watt hours? I don't think there is any way that that is not out of our price range but I will continue to work on it.

[mptjelgin]

37 minutes ago, maryfair said:

I know my concentrator (110 volt) uses 350 watts per hour. So, if I needed 12 hours of operation I would need a set up capable of producing 4200 Watt hours? I don't think there is any way that that is not out of our price range but I will continue to work on it.

In my second post I described how the Joule's Pro Package, with the 4000 watt-hour battery would theoretically run a 310 watt concentrator for 12 (ish) hours, so it makes sense that your 350 watt concentrator would need a slightly larger battery to do the same. 

Again, it is advisable to not plan on running the batteries completely down over and over again.  Plan on including some excess capacity. 

Also, your device not draw 350 watts all of the time.  Using the Kill A Watt Device that has been mentioned a couple of times will give you the true number that you need to know. 

[oldjohnt]

28 minutes ago, maryfair said:

I know my concentrator (110 volt) uses 350 watts per hour. So, if I needed 12 hours of operation I would need a set up capable of producing 4200 Watt hours?

That statement "uses 350 watts per hour" isn't exactly kosher, but hey you're on the right track. If it requires a constant 350 watts (POWER) to operate and if it did so for one hour, that 350 "Watt Hours" of ENERGY (Watts X Time) BUT YOU GET THE PICTURE.  

 YOURE RIGHT with no charging taking place if it draws a constant 350 Watts for 12 hours that's indeed 4200 Watt Hours of ENERGY and if you used 12 volt Lithium batteries full charged and you discharged them 100%  (I wouldn't go over 80 myself) that's 4200/12 = 350 Battery Amp Hours meaning you would need four 100 Amp Hour 12 Volt units (maybe $3,600). Then add an Inverter/Charger to replenish them using either a Generator or plugging to the utility. Too bad solar (instead of generator) to charge the batteries isn't an option. Maybe a small quiet portable Inverter style Generator might be an option ?????? You still have options............Sure it draws a CONSTANT 350 watts ??????? or does it cycle ????

John T    

[maryfair]

1 hour ago, mptjelgin said:

In my second post I described how the Joule's Pro Package, with the 4000 watt-hour battery would theoretically run a 310 watt concentrator for 12 (ish) hours, so it makes sense that your 350 watt concentrator would need a slightly larger battery to do the same. 

Again, it is advisable to not plan on running the batteries completely down over and over again.  Plan on including some excess capacity. 

Also, your device not draw 350 watts all of the time.  Using the Kill A Watt Device that has been mentioned a couple of times will give you the true number that you need to know. 

I was not aware that it was not advisable to run the batteries down over and over again. I guess we would need even more battery power that we had thought. I tried to find out if the concentrator draws a constant 350 watts or if it cycles. There is nothing on the concentrator and I could not find any information online. Clearly,  we would need to buy a "Kill-A-Watt" to find out. 

[Kirk W]

46 minutes ago, maryfair said:

I tried to find out if the concentrator draws a constant 350 watts or if it cycles. There is nothing on the concentrator and I could not find any information online. Clearly,  we would need to buy a "Kill-A-Watt" to find out. 

The only oxygen concentrator that I am familiar with does not cycle as it has to supply a constant stream of about 90% oxygen. Talk with your physician to determine whether you can use a pulse dose (intermittent flow-IF) or will need continuous flow (CF). I would think that the pulse dose type of unit would require less power than the continuous flow models. 

Quote

An oxygen concentrator takes regular air and purifies it to 90-95% oxygen. To do this, the concentrator uses a compressor that moves air into sieve bed filters to remove the nitrogen. It then distributes the purified oxygen through hoses inserted into the nostrils. The nitrogen is later released back into the air.

 

[oldjohnt]

3 hours ago, maryfair said:

I was not aware that it was not advisable to run the batteries down over and over again

maryfair, a battery is rated to have have some finite X number of Life Cycles so each time its charged then discharged and has to be charged up again, you have consumed one of them. If a person uses a charger (Generator or utility powered) or solar or whatever to replenish the battery as it supplies a load and therefore ends up NOT letting it fully discharge before re charging, he uses up fewer of the batteries finite Life Cycles. Its best NOT to discharge lead acid over 50% of their rated capacity while Lithium can be discharged much deeper. What this all means is if you supplement your batteries using a charger or solar to some extent time to time versus running them totally dry before re charging, they will last longer. For only a 350 watt load a small quiet fuel efficient gas or LP inverter generator could go a long way and even say 400 to 600 watts of solar AT LEAST WHEN THE SUN SHINES. What makes it much more difficult (requiring more batteries) is having to rely 100% on stored battery energy only for extended periods like 24 or more hours before re charging, and don't forget considerable time is needed to charge them back up. Looks like you EITHER need to invest in a fairly good sized battery bank plus charger and Inverter or perhaps a small generator or both actually, subject to energy requirements.  Hey don't get discouraged, this can be done, there are people who run AC's (maybe 1500 watts !!!) off grid, it just takes MONEY grrrrrrrrrrr

John T

[jcussen]

Battle Born claims 3000 to 5000 cycles at 100% discharge. Of course if you do not go to 100%,  you will get many more cycles. Lithium will take a 1C  charge, in battleborn's case 100 amps until fully charged, so they will charge 4 or 5 times faster that a lead acid. If you can afford it, would go to 4 battleborns  with 4800 watt hours, this leaves you some cushion and will extend your battery life to 5000+ cycles. This will give you over 13 + years of service if  you are full timing and dry camping. Agree with John T solar and a small generator would be the best way to go for recharging. Of course lithium never has to be brought to 100% like lead acid, so you can charge at your convenience.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/faq/

[maryfair]

6 hours ago, Kirk W said:

The only oxygen concentrator that I am familiar with does not cycle as it has to supply a constant stream of about 90% oxygen. Talk with your physician to determine whether you can use a pulse dose (intermittent flow-IF) or will need continuous flow (CF). I would think that the pulse dose type of unit would require less power than the continuous flow models. 

 

Kirk, I've been using the oxygen concentrator for 2 1/2 years and I have to use it on continuous flow. I wanted to buy a portable oxygen concentrator but my pulmonologist advised against it because I'm on 3 liters continuous flow and that is the most portable concentrators can produce so I would have no "cushion."

Thanks for answering the question about cycling. I guess we don't have to buy a "Kill-A-Watt." 

[maryfair]

John T,

Thanks for all that information. What you are saying about what we would need seems very sensible. We have a lot to think about---and cost out. 

[maryfair]

jcussen,

The Battle Born batteries sound like a great solution. They would supply enough watt hours and I don't expect to be RVing for more than 13 years.

[Kirk W]

8 hours ago, maryfair said:

I guess we don't have to buy a "Kill-A-Watt." 

They don't cost a lot and are the best way to know what any device actually is using, but it will probably be close to the rated amount. I would use that rated energy requirement since design figures are usually a little to the high side because they are the peak requirements and your unit is too important to minimize the power available to it. I would also keep an emergency bottle of oxygen for emergencies, but suspect that you are already doing that. 

[jcussen]

You concentrator may even us more power at higher altitudes.

http://nsbri.org/researches/evaluation-of-oxygen-concentrators-at-altitude/

[maryfair]

Kirk,

While researching concentrators in an attempt to find out how much electricity mine uses I discovered that there is one that provides the same output as mine while using only 120 watts (it's an Inogen which is a good brand). Medicare rents my concentrator from a medical equipment company so I thought I would see if that company (or another one in the Fort Worth area) rents the Inogen. 

 

[maryfair]

jcussen,

Thank you for the link to that article--it was very interesting. I will keep in mind that I might not get as much out of batteries at higher altitude.