1999 Volvo gen 1 transmission problem

[Dennis M]

Wow! Great info Shifted! A real education for all of us. Thanks for taking the time to explain so much. Interesting reading even though I have a Super 10.

[rickeieio]

^{Wow! Great info Shifted! A real education for all of us. Thanks for taking the time to explain so much.}

 

^{I'll second that. You've greatly clarified how these work. I've only been into a few trannies, never an auto shift.}

 

^{Did have the shift lever break on a Fuller T-19 once, and had to shift using a big screw driver, on a truck still under warranty. Hey, I was young and dumb enough to not know it couldn't be done........}

[Grassy]

Thank you for the info !!!

[budeneighe]

Outside the box thoughts:

If... The clutch to stop the transmission idler gears is not being completely engaged and is holding some amount of pressure on the engaging gears as it tries to go into R, could it possibly be engaged enough to sense that it is in R but only be slightly engaged and when loaded, just pops out of the teeth? Normally, if it did not go into R deeply enough the R with flashing arrows would still be showing on the panel unless something was slightly out of skew with the R sensor feedback to the computer.

 

This could be due to wear on the idler clutch or misadjustment for throwout or something not letting the clutch pedal be depressed enough to completely engage the shaft clutch to stop all driven rotation.

 

Just thinking of situations I have had on my Gen 1 where I had difficulty getting it to engage R. Usually, Just Stomping the clutch pedal deeply into the floor, engaging it into D then moving straight into R is enough to get a full engagement the second time I try it.

[bags]

Last post, I promise

 

Now that I have a little more time, I wanted to comment on the cost. I had done so in my original post, which was lost.

 

In my experience, most repair shops make the majority of their profit from the resale of parts. That is where they have the most room to negotiate. Their profit margin on labor tends to be very slim or non-existent. They cover their G&A costs for labor, but the rest usually goes to the technician. The only way that they can charge you less for labor is if they either take an actual real loss and pay the tech but don't charge you, or if the tech agrees to work for free or for a lower rate. Those are all unlikely to happen.

 

That's just something to keep in mind if you try to negotiate the price down. You may have better luck pushing them on the parts cost than on the labor cost.

 

You might be able to get them to R&R the transmission again at their expense since they did it once without successfully diagnosing the problem, but it would be an uphill battle. Their position is likely to be that they are being paid for time and materials to figure out an unknown problem, not being paid to provide a solution for a fixed price.

 

For reference, I have replaced my XY shifter twice, and each time it took under 2 hours including setup, clean-up, installing a driveshaft, removing and installing a weedburner exhaust pipe for access, moving slowly, double checking my work, replacing a wiring harness, and talking with "helpers". All from underneath and with the transmission in place. There was no need to remove the transmission or pull the floor up.

 

The Volvo dealer quoted me about 6 hours of labor for the same work.

 

As a result of my work, I have an extra newly remanufactured XY (electric) shifter for a Gen 2 Eaton Autoshift transmission. I also have a brand new wiring harness. If you, or anyone, wants these items, drop me a line and we can work something out.

 

Shifted,

Thanks for your response. What kind and year model truck did you replace the XY shifter.

 

JB

[bags]

Just saw that you posted an update to your original post. Had no idea since it didn't update the thread as a new post

 

 

That sounds like very poor diagnostics. They pulled the transmission before testing the wiring harness? And they bench tested your XY shifter, found it to be bad, but that wasn't the problem? That doesn't make sense that it was bad but working fine other than reverse. It almost sounds like they were looking to pad the bill with labor (R&R the transmission), not properly troubleshoot the problem.

 

Do you have customization to your truck that affects access to the transmission that forced them to pull it for some reason? If not, I can't see any reason to pull the transmission to troubleshoot this problem.

 

As I said before, they have room to negotiate on parts, but rarely on labor. But I would push pretty hard in this case that pulling the transmission before testing the wiring harness was inappropriate. I would do my level best to insist that they remove that from the bill. Gently, of course, but firmly. I would also ask that they discount the XY shifter to their cost since throwing parts at a problem is not what you expect from a dealer, and ask that they give you the old XY shifter. There is a good chance that your old XY shifter will come back with damage if they are really trying to pull the wool over your eyes, but hopefully that's not the kind of thing you would get from a dealer.

 

If you are hitting a brick wall with the service manager, move on to the GM, and also reach out to Volvo directly. You may get nowhere, but you might get somewhere.

 

Here is the kicker, in my opinion. The Eaton service manual for a gen 1 autoshift says the procedure for installing the electric (XY) shifter is:

 

-Move shift finger to neutral

-Bolt shifter to transmission

-Reconnect wiring harness

-Reconnect gear and rail motors

-CALIBRATE the shifter

 

You do not "program" it. You CALIBRATE it. And this is how it is done, directly from the service manual:

 

a. Turn the ignition switch to ON and allow the transmission to power up.

b. Turn the ignition switch to OFF and wait two minutes.

 

That's it. That's the entire calibration procedure. It sounds to me like they are trying to cover for their mistake. You don't do anything with the shifter itself during calibration, so there is no way he would "discover" a bad "shifter wiring harness" while calibrating it. Unless he forgot to plug the XY shifter into the ECU and went back under there to discover that. But, as my earlier photos show, the XY shifter gear and rail motors come with their own hard wired connections, so there isn't a harness there to replace. The only "harness" in play is the main transmission wiring harness. Anyway, the calibration doesn't put you under the truck. You sit in the cab and turn the key on and then off, and then wait.

 

For what it's worth, the ECU wiring harness for a 1st gen autoshift looks to be about $400. So I'm wondering what they actually changed?

 

Do you have the model # for your transmission? That would help to confirm that I'm reading the right service manuals for your transmission. Or, you can look them up yourself on Eaton's site. You will want to do that before you call them back. Just to make sure that you have your facts straight on what is or is not entailed in replacing the XY shifter and what wiring harnesses are involved.

 

 

If it were me, and it definitely is one of the transmissions covered by the gen 1 service manual, I would push pretty hard on getting the R&R labor taken off. Troubleshooting is one thing, but paying for the tech to do unreasonable work and learn how to troubleshoot a transmission isn't right.

 

Shifted,

 

Thank you very much for the excellent information. You gave me exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I will keep everyone posted with how this all comes out when i pick up the truck on Tuesday.

 

JB

[Shifted]

The transmission model number is: RT0-16910C-AS2. It is a gen 2 ten speed autoshift. Very similar to your gen 1 in many respects, but with a few differences like the reverse switch. Service, troubleshooting and parts manuals are available for both versions for free from Eaton online.

 

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

[Grassy]

 

You do not "program" it. You CALIBRATE it. And this is how it is done, directly from the service manual:

 

The gen one must be different than my ultrashift.

 

For it..you hook up a lap to it and program it.. and make sure it has the most up to date software. It also allows you to change shift points, etc.. and makes sure all is good.. To flip a part and walk would be doing only part of the job.

 

When I had my XY changed, we modded the programming to get rid of a short shift in 3rd that the last owner liked.

 

When you shut off and turn the rig on..the trans just resets itself.. like it does all the time.

 

What it sounds like is you don't have any confidence with the company that is maintaining your rig. I see only one solution..

 

Good luck.

[Shifted]

I think you are talking about programming the ECU, not the XY/electric shifter. The XY shifter is calibrated, not programmed. The ECU can be programmed. The XY shifter is just a couple of DC motors and sensors, there is no ecu or other programmable component in it.

 

When I get a chance I will look through the ultrashift materials. But it is a different animal in some ways as it also manages a clutch, not just shifts and rpm's.

[Grassy]

I am guessing that. When I was having my XY jam, by rebooting the transmission, it would reset itself back to the default (most of the time and all was good.). There were times that this took me over 1/2 hour..

 

But if I understand correctly, the ECU controls the XY..,,I mentioned that in my first post....so I may be talking apples vs oranges here if this trans is different.... but if the XY is not doing what it is supposed to do...stay in reverse.. and if there isn't a physical problem..it could be a programming issue.

 

Technicalities aside, you have to have confidence in what you drive and subsequently, who works on your rig or your tips will be uncomfortable.

[bags]

Trans Model #

 

Shifted,

 

Thank you ever so much for all your help and sage advice. You asked for the model # of the trans and here it is,

 

RTA014710BAS

 

I have an appointment tomorrow morning. I always thought the XY was an internal part but from all the info you provided it site on top of the transmission.

 

I have a copy of the invoice and all the parts etc. If you will send me your email address (john@jmbagley.com) I will forward it to you for your advice. I also noticed where the bill references calibrating shifter as opposed programing as I was told. The invoice also states why they pulled the transmission. They pulled it, at eatons request to inspect the sliding clutch and main shaft. When dlr reported to eaton as fine then eaton said and xy could throw that same code. I have a bunch of assumptions but I sure would like to here what you think.

 

JB

[Shifted]

Email sent.

[bags]

UPDATE

 

I just want to say thank you to everyone and especially Shifted for your help. With the info shared by others and most notably Shifted's help i went to the Waco Mack and Volvo and was able to negotiate 2000.00 off the repair bill. At best i think I over paid by 600.00 at worse case maybe 2600.00. I presented my argument and really did not get much pushback which I was kind of surprised by. I do not think there was any malice but a lot of incompetence of which I would not have expected from a Volvo dealer. Needless to say I will not be going there again. Like they say experience is the best teacher but tuition bill is quite expensive.

 

Once again thank for everyones help.

 

Merry Christmas

 

JB

[MrSeas]

So did I miss the fix?

[SuiteSuccess]

So did I miss the fix?

X2

[bags]

yes. It was the code 53 reverse ball switch.

[Shifted]

That is great news! Glad it worked out better than we feared. It would have been nice if it had been properly diagnosed the first time, but at least you have new parts on it that you won't have to worry about for a long time.

 

Nice job on the negotiations. That takes a special approach, personality and talent to make that happen so smoothly.

 

Were you able to retain the original XY shifter? If so, you could probably sell that online and recoup a little of the cost.

 

Again, so happy to hear that this worked out in the end!

[SuiteSuccess]

John,

 

Thinking they were willing to negotiate labor because when I found service manual it only took unplugging the harness and a 7/8" wrench to get it out and back in.

[SuiteSuccess]

John,

 

Here is the service manual matching yout trannies number.

 

http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/idcplg%3FIdcService%3DGET_FILE%26dID%3D287190

[Dollytrolley]

UPDATE

 

I just want to say thank you to everyone and especially Shifted for your help. With the info shared by others and most notably Shifted's help i went to the Waco Mack and Volvo and was able to negotiate 2000.00 off the repair bill. At best i think I over paid by 600.00 at worse case maybe 2600.00. I presented my argument and really did not get much pushback which I was kind of surprised by. I do not think there was any malice but a lot of incompetence of which I would not have expected from a Volvo dealer. Needless to say I will not be going there again. Like they say experience is the best teacher but tuition bill is quite expensive.

 

Once again thank for everyones help.

 

Merry Christmas

 

JB

So.... A new surgeon and his wife moves into town and his wife says '

"Doctor, I think we should throw a cocktail party and invite all the other doctors.....so....

 

About a hour into the cocktail party the surgeon's wife comes over where he is tending the bar and whispers , honey the toilet is plugged in the bathroom". The surgeon responds" honey, I am a surgeon and I am tending bar, just call a plumber". Fifteen minutes later the plumber arrives and ten minutes later the plumber sits down at the bar and tells the surgeon "well doctor your toilet is unplugged and here is my invoice".... the surgeon puts on his reading glasses and looks at the invoice and gasps...."geez I am a SURGEON and I don't make that much money!!"......The plumber grins and says"well doc, you know when I WAS a SURGEON...I didn't make that much money either......

 

So......was the Volvo mechanic a .... surgeon.....or was he a plumber.... before he became a Volvo tech......

 

Drive on.....(I want to be a Volvo mechanic....if....I ever grow up )

[bags]

That is great news! Glad it worked out better than we feared. It would have been nice if it had been properly diagnosed the first time, but at least you have new parts on it that you won't have to worry about for a long time.

 

Nice job on the negotiations. That takes a special approach, personality and talent to make that happen so smoothly.

 

Were you able to retain the original XY shifter? If so, you could probably sell that online and recoup a little of the cost.

 

Again, so happy to hear that this worked out in the end!

 

Yes I have the parts. My regular mechanic is coming by tomorrow for another hopefully minor issue on my trailer and we will test the XY as well as any other parts in the box. Been so busy I have not even looked at them.

 

Thanks

JB