rickeieio Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 DT said: Whats your favorite "tail-swing"? Why, my darling wife, of course. KW T-680, POPEMOBILE Newmar X-Aire, VATICAN Lots of old motorcycles, Moto Guzzi Griso and Spyder F3 currently in the front row Young enough to play in the dirt as a retired farmer. contact me at rickeieio1@comcast.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted July 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 So tail-swing is fairly complex due to the various layouts of each truck and trailer combo. Some owners seem more concerned about the lack of tail-swing and tend to watch the track of the trailer on the inside of most turns when driving forward and inversely seem concerned about poor turning response backing up. For the most part most of the folks with larger truck-tail-swings seem to watch the tail of the truck on the outside of the turn going forward and seem pretty satisfied with the tendency of the trailer more closely tracking the truck wheel tracks and it sounds like most folks like the fairly "sporty" turning of the trailer when needing to turn when backing up. Henry has concerns for a group of moderately heavy fifth toy haulers that he names "floaters" since the close -to-mid-trailer-axle locations tend to result in fairly light weight hitch-pin-mass-loads and many owners complain of swerving of the trailer at highway speeds. It seems that the large tail-swing of these "floaters" is mass-arm-induced-dynamics" where tail-swing of the mass at the rear of the trailer is not able to be dampened by the tow rig. Some commercial tractor / trailer combos tend to configure the tractor to highly stabilize an less than stable trailer......example: mobile home toters tend to have very little tail swing in order to highly dampen a very large tail-swing of a mobile home, sure overall tractor / trailer combo length is a factor in keeping mobile home toters short but highway speed stability is a overriding factor as well. So what is the ideal tractor AND trailer combo-tail-swing? Drive on.........(what is the best ......."swing-combo?") 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkennell Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Dolley: You said something at the beginning I was thinking about. I agree, adding weight to the bed is going to smooth the ride....BUT. Having the hitch 12' behind the axle, when the rear axle goes over one of those 3" drops in between slabs some roads seem to have lots of, the "moment arm" at 12' is gonna make for some significant vertical hitch movement if the truck suspension does not swallow all of it. SO the ride in the trailer may NOT improve in certain conditions, even if the weight makes the suspension work better. My truck is very light (basically bobtail), the hitch is set back 3-4', and hitch has got 6" of air travel. The front of the trailer barely moves even when I hit a pothole. Tracking wise...I have never had to worry about swing cause it isn't large enough to be an issue, yet the trailer "steers" easily when backing into campsites. So IMO....about 4' is perfect My big problem is its so EASY to drive compared to a 4x4 tractor with a tow between tank pulling a 30' field cultivator pulling a rolling harrow cart....I tend to get careless! No camper at present. Way too many farm machines to maintain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted July 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Dolley: You said something at the beginning I was thinking about. I agree, adding weight to the bed is going to smooth the ride....BUT. Having the hitch 12' behind the axle, when the rear axle goes over one of those 3" drops in between slabs some roads seem to have lots of, the "moment arm" at 12' is gonna make for some significant vertical hitch movement if the truck suspension does not swallow all of it. SO the ride in the trailer may NOT improve in certain conditions, even if the weight makes the suspension work better. My truck is very light (basically bobtail), the hitch is set back 3-4', and hitch has got 6" of air travel. The front of the trailer barely moves even when I hit a pothole. Tracking wise...I have never had to worry about swing cause it isn't large enough to be an issue, yet the trailer "steers" easily when backing into campsites. So IMO....about 4' is perfect My big problem is its so EASY to drive compared to a 4x4 tractor with a tow between tank pulling a 30' field cultivator pulling a rolling harrow cart....I tend to get careless! Rick, good points you bring up In your post #21 you worried you might become a target.........no worries ......when you look in the mirror that is NOT a laser-dot on your forehead it is just a hicky-from-your darling wife.......... So here is where physics comes into play......(and as the DUNCE of our physics class..... I am sure that prof Strom would tell you that of the FEW things I ever learned in physics class I learned the HARD way.....) While the weight (mass) you mention has some factor in the dampening (increase in ride quality) I would state that the "ARM" has a likely more dampening quality when the weights (mass) is concentrated at EACH end of the 20 ft cargo box......... What we have here is the high-wire-walker-effect where a long pole is carried by the wire-walker and the long-pole is utilized as a balance damper to effectively provide stability withe length of arm without adding too much weight (mass) to carry..... So in a previous post Peety was pretty stern in warning me about my long arms of my cargo box and tail swings and Peety brings a very valid concern to the campfire in that long arms require consideration of the loading of those arms....... Properly balanced those long arms can be a very effective damper for the truck .........IF on the other hand the long arms are abused the resulting dynamics can become less than ideal to say the least (as per Peety's warning)....... While I was the Dunce-of-the-physics-class I did get a passing grade and have tried to not abuse to many laws of physics too badly......... Drive on.........(long arms are not bad if.....properly balanced) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickeieio Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Re: post 21, I love it. You guys are actually debating this in terms I can understand. Campfire material indeed. KW T-680, POPEMOBILE Newmar X-Aire, VATICAN Lots of old motorcycles, Moto Guzzi Griso and Spyder F3 currently in the front row Young enough to play in the dirt as a retired farmer. contact me at rickeieio1@comcast.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety3 Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 So tail-swing is fairly complex due to the various layouts of each truck and trailer combo. Um, no, not really complex. For a given wheelbase and wheel cut, it's easy to figure out a right triangle that defines the turning radius of the front wheels and drive wheels. (hint: the right angle means your frame is perpendicular to the pivot point, so (disclaimer: haven't had my coffee yet) I think the solution is [wheelbase] / (cos(90 - [wheel cut angle]). In turn, you can easily derive the turning radius of the hitch (another right triangle), and from that, derive the turning radius of the trailer wheels (another right triangle) and trailer rear bumper (another right triangle). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety3 Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Some commercial tractor / trailer combos tend to configure the tractor to highly stabilize an less than stable trailer......example: mobile home toters tend to have very little tail swing in order to highly dampen a very large tail-swing of a mobile home, sure overall tractor / trailer combo length is a factor in keeping mobile home toters short but highway speed stability is a overriding factor as well. Mobile home toters optimize short for two simple reasons: overall length (as you mentioned) and ability to maneuver the trailer into tight spots quickly. It's not optimized for tail swing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted July 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Mobile home toters optimize short for two simple reasons: overall length (as you mentioned) and ability to maneuver the trailer into tight spots quickly. It's not optimized for tail swing. Peety.....good day..... Thanks for stopping by and pitching another "log-on-the-campfire"......... I'am a little low on "compressed-gas near the keyboard" but if the mom-n-law does not get the chain started I just might live long enough to throw my next "log-on-the-campfire" in response to your latest post here...... Rick you might consider moving to a stump a little farther back from the "campfire".......you would not want any of your "short-curly's" getting singed IF the campfire get a bit too hot......... Gotta keeping moving out of the way of the mom-n-law....... Drive on............(Watch the gas ........level) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted July 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 Mobile home toters optimize short for two simple reasons: overall length (as you mentioned) and ability to maneuver the trailer into tight spots quickly. It's not optimized for tail swing. Peety, A eon ago I became trapped on a government job (NOT U S) that involved me managing way too much rolling stock from all kinds of tractors, trailers, cranes, forklifts, wheel loaders, all kinds of tracked equipment AND marine tugs, barges and ALL manner of job trailers AND trailer toters (Mobile home bob-tail some single and a couple tandems). Peety your are correct when you typed......."It's not optimized for tail swing" .......these mobile home toters have virtually NO tail-swing and even though they tend to generally have a short wheel base these rigs are a NIGHTMARE to twist a Looooong trailer into a tight spot mainly because they have the trailer hitch ball so CLOSE to the rear axle........they have very little tail swing to steer the trailer when backing. Sure the toter may be short enough to turn fairly sharp but with no tail swing the ball is very lazy to steer the trailer when backing. Do toters get trailers spotted .....sure they can , they have limited choices most of the time but there are better ways (look at the link below). IF shorty-mobile toters were such red-hot rigs for spotting long trailers there would be NO market for the RemoteTrax mobile movers (see the link below). http://remotetraxmover.com/ We bought a few RemoteTrax and we could a spot a big trailer in a tight location on a construction site before the toter could get off the lot...... Drive on.........(too little tail-swing can be a......bummer) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve from SoCal Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 My shop is pretty big but it has crane columns all over. To position trailers I use my forklifts, from my baby Clark clipper to Bertha my big Hyster. The forklifts have anywhere from 3 feet to 7 of kingpin to axle distance. Forklifts have very high angle steering and are rather compact. To get trailers in very tight spots i use soapy water under the tires. I can move anything up to about 25k on the kingpin. I don't have a tandem axle truck and don't like long wheelbase trucks in general so having a far aft hitch is not really an option for me. I could see where a stinger hitch could be desirable in some instances but, I am a simple guy who likes simple machines. Steve 2005 Peterbilt 387-112 Baby Cat 9 speed U-shift 1996/2016 remod Teton Royal Atlanta 1996 Kentucky 48 single drop stacker garage project Pulls like a train, sounds like a plane....faster than a Cheetah sniffin cocaine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickeieio Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 http://remotetraxmover.com/ Wow. I took a look at the "features", and the last item it mentions is a wench. More tail swing....... KW T-680, POPEMOBILE Newmar X-Aire, VATICAN Lots of old motorcycles, Moto Guzzi Griso and Spyder F3 currently in the front row Young enough to play in the dirt as a retired farmer. contact me at rickeieio1@comcast.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'mdonewiththis forum Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 http://remotetraxmover.com/ Wow. I took a look at the "features", and the last item it mentions is a wench. More tail swing....... But it says the wench is WARN. Who wants a warn wench? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickeieio Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 But it says the wench is WARN. Who wants a warn wench? Dammit, now I have coffee all over my desk and keyboard. KW T-680, POPEMOBILE Newmar X-Aire, VATICAN Lots of old motorcycles, Moto Guzzi Griso and Spyder F3 currently in the front row Young enough to play in the dirt as a retired farmer. contact me at rickeieio1@comcast.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoDirectionHome Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 Our more versatile forklift http://www.hoistlift.com/fr-series-15-000-80-000-lbs-/ "There are No Experts, Do the Math!" 2014 Freightliner Cascadia DD16 600hp 1850ft-lb 18spd 3.31 260"wb SpaceCraft S-470 SKP #131740 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted July 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 http://remotetraxmover.com/ Wow. I took a look at the "features", and the last item it mentions is a wench. More tail swing....... But it says the wench is WARN. Who wants a warn wench? Dammit, now I have coffee all over my desk and keyboard. You guys are having too much fun........at the expense of Peety and me doing all the "heavy-lifting-and-throwing-tha-logs-on-tha-campfire......... My type-n thumbs are tired this morning...........mom-n-law decided that her bedroom had no roof between midnight and 2:40 this morning......she is one tough wench......and I am fairly ......worn-out..... Steve's "do-everything-and-anything forklift" might need to be fitted with one of those ....wench'z.........(like I said I'm getting a bit warn/ worn.....) Drive on.........(did tail-swing remove the bedroom.....roof?) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alie&Jim's Carrilite Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 We used a forklift to maneuver boats around inside the shop. 24000sqft with catwalks for work stations. Having a hitch ball at the end of a fork makes a very maneuverable machine. Tongue weight wasn't an issue as the indoor shop dollys were all 4 wheel 4 corner. Using it outside with a real trailer was easy as well. Just had to watch the tongue weight on the fork. Somewhere around 1000lbs or so the forks would be bent a little.... Alie & Jim + 8 paws 2017 DRV Memphis BART- 1998 Volvo 610 Lil'ole 6cyl Cummins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdickinson Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 Typical of offshore products having someone whose Hinglish is not their first language do the interpretation. Something my dad purchased years ago where the hinstructions said "Tap soothingly with a hammer." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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