Fresh Water

[richfaa]

Well we learned something and anytime you learn something it is a good day. I guess we'll just keep on  doing what we have been doing for the last 30 years or so in terms of RV'ing and fresh water.  We have not come down with a plague of any kind......yet.  We now understand what a TDS meter does and what it is good for.

[Billy W]

Bleach does not kill mold on porous surfaces and can actually contribute to mold growth! ... This means that chlorine bleach can only kill surface mold. Because mold can grow deep roots within porous surfaces, such as wood and drywall, bleach will not assist you in exterminating mold.

Off thew shelf hydrogen peroxide will work. After 42 years in public health and dealing with this type of issues I can assure you bleach doesn't work in every case. 

[Barbaraok]

3 hours ago, Billy W said:

Just as a reminder, "bleach does not kill mildew, mold and some algae" it only bleaches it so it looks like its gone. I would suggest using hydrogen peroxide. Its cheep and in eliminates the oxygen the bacteria need to grow. You can also use white vinegar but it is a mild acetic acid 2% and it smells too.

Your chemistry/ChemEng degrees are from?   Bleach, like H2O2, is an oxidizer and will kill mold, etc.    

[Zulu]

57 minutes ago, Billy W said:

Bleach does not kill mold on porous surfaces . . .

Mmmmm . . . so PEX (RV plumbing) and polyethylene (RV water tanks) are porous?

[Billy W]

Barbaraok like many other blogs or discussion groups there are always some who think they know more than others and become defensive when they feel challenged. Im not going to get into what my degrees are in or what medical school I attended. I will however challenge you to to do the research yourself.

Z, I understand what the tanks are made of and was offering a better solution that I know works for all surfaces and structures.

 

Have a good day.

[Ray,IN]

2 hours ago, Billy W said:

Barbaraok like many other blogs or discussion groups there are always some who think they know more than others and become defensive when they feel challenged. Im not going to get into what my degrees are in or what medical school I attended. I will however challenge you to to do the research yourself.

Z, I understand what the tanks are made of and was offering a better solution that I know works for all surfaces and structures.

 

Have a good day.

They do not blow their own horn, however;  Just so you know, one of them has a chemistry degree, and a degree in water treatment.

 I used to hold a Cl A wastewater treatment license in my state, and nothing in the material I studied mentioned not to use chlorine to sanitize plastics, to the contrary it is the most commonly-used chemical,  depending on the type and resistance of germs and growth, contact time is all important given the same solution strength.

As to Hydrogen Peroxide for sanitizing, the quantity and percentage strength required makes it impractical for private citizens to use as such. The WHO does not even mention using Hydrogen Peroxide for sanitizing drinking water.

 As a side note, I use Sodium Dichlor for sanitizing plumbing and disinfecting drinking water. Most do not because of the precautions involved.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Ray,IN

[Kirk W]

4 hours ago, Billy W said:

Off thew shelf hydrogen peroxide will work.

So if we should wish to try your way, where do we get the needed hydrogen peroxide and at what % should it be? What amounts would be needed and where would we find instructions for doing the job in our RVs?  One of the main reasons that most of us have used chlorine bleach is the fact that it is readily available and most of us have plenty in the laundry supplies. In addition, instructions on how ito use chlorine bleach are readily available. 

[Billy W]

Kirk, for clarification was referring to cleaning the system no purifying the water.  I have used hydrogen peroxide straight off the shelf from walmart. I simply treated the system the same way I would if I was winterizing the system. Let it sit for a couple of hours and flush the system. If I recall it took approx three or four gallons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kirk W]

1 minute ago, Billy W said:

Kirk, for clarification was referring to cleaning the system no purifying the water. 

And that was the question that I was asking. We have sanitized our water system many times over the past 40 years of RVing and have always used chlorine bleach. 

[Billy W]

Yes I have too, especially after extended stays in Florida or where the water has a sulfa smell. I did not realize how bad it was until I returned home and stored my RV for a month then tried to use it again. I thought something had died in the unit. I used bleach but it did not work so someone suggest hydrogen peroxide to me and it worked great. I did flush my hot water tank but did not heat it. I have talked with others who have used white vinegar but they were told not to use it in the hot water tank because it could damage the liner. 

 

 

 

 

[richfaa]

Perhaps the fact that we do not store our RV as it is in constant use  has something   do with not having water problems.It is now on our property 50 amps full hookups . We have been flushing all our tanks  for the last couple of weeks For the gray, galley and black tanks we just use dawn dish soap  fill the tanks  let them sit for 3 days then dump.We are  on the third fill and dump and everything looks clean. It has always worked for us. We of course dump and flush on a regular basis  when out for the winter. We just drain the fresh water tank which we do on a regular basis and give it a good look and smell. We  are never in real hot weather for extended periods as our travel goal was to stay out of real hot or real cold weather.

[Ray,IN]

1 hour ago, Billy W said:

Yes I have too, especially after extended stays in Florida or where the water has a sulfa smell. I did not realize how bad it was until I returned home and stored my RV for a month then tried to use it again. I thought something had died in the unit. I used bleach but it did not work so someone suggest hydrogen peroxide to me and it worked great. I did flush my hot water tank but did not heat it. I have talked with others who have used white vinegar but they were told not to use it in the hot water tank because it could damage the liner. 

 

 

 

 

Scroll down approx. half way to read what the CDC says about H2O2 for sanitizing. That's why I think its use is impractical for RVers.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Ray,IN

[Sehc]

I am a retired licensed water treatment operator. Chlorine is the easiest to use. It is readily available. It keeps a residual. That is why it is required for use in water treatment. There are few exceptions that may allow UV light in a very small community water system. Peroxide is not used to sanitize or purify drinking water. It may have a place as a cleaning product. 3% is good for cleaning wounds. In water treatment I used 50%. It was used to control odor and foam in waste treatment. As posted above, chlorine use is by strength, parts per million, and by contact time. Stronger, less time. But to sanitize tanks and pires, 24 hours with a residual at the end of 24 hours. Else do it again.

[richfaa]

1 hour ago, Sehc said:

I am a retired licensed water treatment operator. Chlorine is the easiest to use. It is readily available. It keeps a residual. That is why it is required for use in water treatment. There are few exceptions that may allow UV light in a very small community water system. Peroxide is not used to sanitize or purify drinking water. It may have a place as a cleaning product. 3% is good for cleaning wounds. In water treatment I used 50%. It was used to control odor and foam in waste treatment. As posted above, chlorine use is by strength, parts per million, and by contact time. Stronger, less time. But to sanitize tanks and pires, 24 hours with a residual at the end of 24 hours. Else do it again.

Stinking facts again.

[Sehc]

Facts always get someone pissed off. 

[Zulu]

9 hours ago, Sehc said:

I am a retired licensed water treatment operator . . .  Peroxide is not used to sanitize or purify drinking water. It may have a place as a cleaning product. 3% is good for cleaning wounds. In water treatment I used 50%. 

Did you once say in another thread that the concentrated hydrogen peroxide you used would occasionally cause fires?

[Barbaraok]

H2O2 generates O2 when it reacts, and O2 PROMOTE fire (part of the fire triangle) which is why peroxides are often used in some explosive mixtures. Pour 50% H2O2 on asphalt on a hot day and you will often have flames appear.  😱

[mptjelgin]

I volunteered at a fish hatchery where they had a few barrels of highly concentrated H2O2 for disinfecting purposes. It had to be kept in a separate secured building with some sort of Department of Homeland Security paperwork involved (according to the hatchery manager). 

Found this:

Hydrogen Peroxide: Hydrogen peroxide in concentrations of 35% or greater is listed as a chemical of interest under Appendix A of CFATS. DHS listed hydrogen peroxide (35% or greater) not because the agency believes it poses an inherent risk to human health and safety by itself, but due to its potential for theft by someone who wishes to use it in preparation of an “improvised explosive device precursor” (IEDP).

Edited July 9, 2019 by mptjelgin

[Billy W]

OMG my suggestion was to use it as a cleaning agent not water purification. If you put diesel on a hot surface the flash point become greater than gasoline.  As to being pissed off I guess its better than being pissed on.

[Zulu]

2 hours ago, Billy W said:

OMG my suggestion was to use it as a cleaning agent not water purification. If you put diesel on a hot surface the flash point become greater than gasoline.  As to being pissed off I guess its better than being pissed on.

Right. And off-the-shelf hydrogen peroxide doesn't cut it as a hard-surface disinfectant. See EPA Hard Surface Disinfectant Comparison Chart.

[Barbaraok]

3 hours ago, Billy W said:

OMG my suggestion was to use it as a cleaning agent not water purification. If you put diesel on a hot surface the flash point become greater than gasoline.  As to being pissed off I guess its better than being pissed on.

No, the flash point it still the same.  Gasoline flashpoint is -45 F, while diesel is +126F.   So if the surface is hot enough, diesel will have enough vapors and will flash when  a spark is applied.    

Oxygen acts as an accelerator.   Since all hydrocarbons give off vapor, the increased concentration of O2 and an ignition source (doesn't take much) will cause vigorous burning.       Did you miss the fire triangle in middle school science?    

Drug store bottles of 4% H2O2 are perfect for a cleaning agent for cuts, and a great way to show that catalase is released when tissue is cut and the bubbles in the cut are O2 coming out of solution.    For general cleaning, you'd need either of lot of money to get sufficient amount to do it, or have to buy stronger peroxide, which most people are not able to do.  Plus it would be much more expense than just using bleach.  

And if you are worried about porous surface in a large area (i.e. after Hurricane Katrina) the best way is to tent the whole house and use chlorine dioxide (ClO2) as the gas penetrates far deeper than a liquid can.

All of which has nothing to do with a cleaning agent.  Soap and water are the best cleaning agents.  

Maybe one should remember that this discussion is about the fresh water tank?   Not cleaning or disinfecting surfaces within the RV or house.  

[richfaa]

So many experts here  that is a good thing all of this expert advice has us completely confused  so we have decided to disregard   all the expertise and continue to do what we have been doing for 30 plus years.Whatever we are doing has worked for us and our tanks.There are times when to much information is ..well... to much information.

[Barbaraok]

Rich,

Sorry that the topic spiraled out.  Experience is a great teacher and I suspect the reason you have no problems is that you routinely change out the water (using it, refilling and dumping as necessary) and you are using water from municipal sources.  Keep on doing what you're doing.  

 

[Ray,IN]

On 7/7/2019 at 9:00 PM, Billy W said:

Yes I have too, especially after extended stays in Florida or where the water has a sulfa smell. I did not realize how bad it was until I returned home and stored my RV for a month then tried to use it again. I thought something had died in the unit. I used bleach but it did not work so someone suggest hydrogen peroxide to me and it worked great. I did flush my hot water tank but did not heat it. I have talked with others who have used white vinegar but they were told not to use it in the hot water tank because it could damage the liner. 

 

 

 

 

I  thought about what you said about using Hydrogen Peroxide to remove foul odors from the water heater so began looking and found this which confirms your water heater odor elimination: https://www.cleanwaterstore.com/resource/how-to-guides/how-to-eliminate-water-heater-odors/

Edited July 10, 2019 by Ray,IN

[Sehc]

On 7/8/2019 at 6:13 PM, Zulu said:

Did you once say in another thread that the concentrated hydrogen peroxide you used would occasionally cause fires?

No. Not that I recall. I used 55 gallon barrels of 50% hydrogen peroxide, had some spills,  never had a fire. There was some minor skin damage until we prevented the Plant Manager access to the product. I would only recommend using the drug store 3% solution.