Other mail and domicile services

[goldenskyhook]

No, I had to provide two pieces of mail to demonstrate my Wisconsin address and residency. I was applying for the "REAL" ID, though.

[Blues]

On 9/29/2020 at 7:33 PM, Barbaraok said:

What you don’t understand is that people with Class A and Class B licenses CAN NOT renew online and must do it by mail or in person.  If you are traveling, you do it by mail. We were not in Texas when licenses needed to be renewed.  Set in requested material and had them sent to Livingston.  Then had them sent on to with our mail.   Since I’ve done it twice I’m not sure why you are so hostile to me.  

I'm not hostile. I'm just trying to figure out why only a renewal by mail would require residency documents while the exact same renewal in person (or online or by phone if available--I'm aware that Class A and B licenses can't be renewed online or by phone) wouldn't require residency documents. It makes no sense.

Apparently Texas is unlike Wisconsin, and doesn't require residency documents to get a REAL ID. I've asked any number of people with Texas licenses with the REAL ID star if they had to provide any documentation of residency, and not one of them has. So the residency documents aren't for the REAL ID. The question then becomes, what are they for?

Let's take a married couple, one of whom doesn't drive the RV and therefore has a regular old Class C license, and one of whom does drive the RV and therefore has a Class B license. They're in the middle of a year-long trip around the U.S., staying in each place just a few days, and when in Minneapolis, they suddenly realize both of their licenses expire shortly.

They don't want to go back to Texas to renew. So the person with the Class C license renews online or by phone, from Minneapolis, and he doesn't have to submit any residency documents. He doesn't indicate any address other than his permanent address in Texas, and that's where his license will be sent.

His wife would do the same thing, but she has a Class B license and can't renew online or by phone, and has to do it by mail. According to you, she does have to submit residency documents. Why? She's no more or less out of state than her husband at the time of renewal. Just like her husband, she won't indicate any address other than her permanent address in Texas, and that's where her license will be sent. The only difference is that she can't do it online or by phone, because she has to submit the CDL-2 affidavit, exempting her from getting a CDL for her RV.

Submitting the CDL-2 in an in-person renewal doesn't trigger the requirement for residency documents, so it shouldn't trigger it in a mail-in renewal.

So what DOES trigger the requirement for residency documents? Living out of state. But what does "living out of state" mean?

The Texas DPS website says, "Examples of people living outside of the state who have Texas domicile include certain U.S. active duty military members, students whose parents live in Texas and people temporarily living outside of Texas for work."

That doesn't sound like someone on vacation to me. Instead, the examples actually look like people who are residents of whatever state the house or apartment they're living is located, and it's reasonable to require them to submit documents showing that they're not actually residents there, to allow them to have Texas licenses.

A traveling RVer in Minneapolis for four days doesn't look anything like that.

[Barbaraok]

Blues,

First, no the renewed license is not necessarily sent to the Texas address.   It is sent to where ever you happened to be.  Mine came to Arizona where we spend the winter.   So maybe that is why they require documentation.   You don't know much about people who are on assignments in various states for a variety of reasons do you?    Military, students, oil workers, university personnel (lots of the big universities have satellite campuses in other states and some in other countries), traveling nurses  who take 3 months assignments and then move on, insurance adjusters who go in after a major disaster and spend 6-15 months during the cleanup, and on and on.   And LOTS of full timers don't set foot in Texas for years at a time.   

I am not sure why this bothers you so much.  It is what it is.  

[Blues]

2 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

First, no the renewed license is not necessarily sent to the Texas address.   It is sent to where ever you happened to be.  Mine came to Arizona where we spend the winter.   So maybe that is why they require documentation.

Well of course they require residency documentation when a person renews a Texas license but has it sent to an address that isn't in Texas.  And I thought that's what you'd done, because you previously said:

Quote

If you are traveling, you do it by mail. We were not in Texas when licenses needed to be renewed.  Set in requested material and had them sent to Livingston.  Then had them sent on to with our mail.  

That led me to believe that the only difference between your renewal and an online renewal by someone on vacation was that yours was for a Class B license.  But that turns out not to be the case.  Instead, you were acting just like people working outside the state or attending college outside the state, and having the license sent to the apartment or house they're living in outside the state.  And Texas requires people who are living somewhere out of state to the extent that they want to receive their driver's license there to prove that they're entitled to have a Texas driver's license instead of one from the state where they're living.

Which brings us back to whether people who are renewing a Class B license by mail only because they can't do it online or by phone, and an out-of-state address is never mentioned (like someone on vacation) have to submit residency documentation. 

[Barbaraok]

But when my husband renewed the year before, we had it sent to Livingston because we were moving between states and that was easiest for us.  Still had to supply residency documentation.   You are really hung up on this aren’t you?   It is what it is.  Why tilt at windmills?  

[Kirk W]

13 hours ago, Blues said:

So the residency documents aren't for the REAL ID. The question then becomes, what are they for?

They are not and never were. Real ID requires a birth certificate or passport in order to prove US citizenship, nothing more. Proof of residency is needed to qualify for your first TX license. Once you have a TX license it is acceptable as such proof. And I might point out that since each state sets their own laws for driving license requirements, I doubt that many are exactly the same as WI. There is no reason that they should be. 

[Blues]

On 11/6/2020 at 11:29 PM, Barbaraok said:

But when my husband renewed the year before, we had it sent to Livingston because we were moving between states and that was easiest for us.  Still had to supply residency documentation.   You are really hung up on this aren’t you?   It is what it is.  Why tilt at windmills?

Just because you've always submitted residency documents doesn't mean your license wouldn't have been renewed if you hadn't submitted them.  Like if there was no indication in the information on your forms that you were renewing by mail because you were living out of state for school or a job, and had the new license sent to your usual Texas address.  Would the renewal have been rejected?  We don't know.

And as I've said, it makes no sense that one person sitting in Minneapolis for three days doing an online renewal doesn't have to submit residency documents, while the person sitting next to him does have to submit residency documents, with the only difference that she can't do it online.  There's no public policy reason for a rule like that, which makes me wonder if that's actually the rule.

The out-of-state packet was revised in July 2020.  It now says:

Quote

Texas Residency
Individuals may renew or request a replacement of their DL/ID card while living outside of the state if their true, fixed and permanent home (domicile) is Texas. To verify Texas residency, an individual must submit a letter from their employer stating they are on work assignment out-of-the-state/country, or a valid Common Access Card (CAC), military dependent card or military orders.

In the previous version, this section mentioned the Texas Residency Affidavit (which has nothing to do with out-of-state renewals, since it's for someone to swear that their agency provides services to a person at a stated location in Texas), stating the the back of the affidavit  had a list of acceptable residency documents.  The new packet doesn't even mention the Texas Residency Affidavit, never mind actually include it in order to see what's on the back.  And it now mentions only a letter from an employer as being used to verify residency.  What do we make of that?

And in the section on renewals, it says to "complete and submit all documents listed," like the CDL-2 (RV exempt from CDL) and the DL-63 (eye exam form), and "proof of lawful presence or U.S. citizenship," but nothing about proof of residency.  But interestingly, in the section on Replacement, Address Change or Name Change, it does say, "Submit proof of Texas residency."  Why did they include it there, and not in the instructions on renewals?

It's not at all clear that proof of residency would be required if someone gives only a Texas address on all forms, and perhaps is using the out-of-state forms only because online renewal isn't available because of the class of license they have.  Yes, you've always submitted it, but that doesn't mean it was actually required. 

[Barbaraok]

There is a check list for mail renewal of materials that are REQUIRED.  Not there, the application will be rejected.   What don't you understand about following the instructions for MAIL renewal.   They are different than in person renewal, online renewal, by phone renew.   If you don't like it, then complain to the DPS in Austin.  Don't think you will get very far, but have at it.   Here's the web page with the items that can be used detailed:

https://www.dps.texas.gov/DriverLicense/residencyReqNonCDL.htm

And here is the link for MAIL renewal

https://www.dps.texas.gov/DriverLicense/nonmilitaryrenewal.htm

So have at it.  I know what works since I have done it.  And you, when did you do your Texas Class B renewal by mail?