Tongue and groove walls, nothing to do with rving,

[GlennWest]

27 minutes ago, Pat & Pete said:

Are you talking about Rockwool insulation ?

Thanks. corrected

[Randyretired]

I have heard good things about rockwool including how fire resistant it is.  I have also heard good things about blown in insulation and spray insulation.  Often times good ole fiberglass is cheaper.  I think it just comes down to finances and which is the best bang for the buck.  By that I mean will it save on energy enough to make it worthwhile. The vapor barrier can make or break any insulation.  Actually the better insulation  makes the vapor barrier more critical.  Some are now saying air sealing is actually more important than insulation.

[sandsys]

On 10/31/2021 at 7:44 AM, GlennWest said:

I worked many a job on concrete. Yes, standing all day is rough on knees. But only time really spending time up is cooking. yes, washing clothes but that is not long up. 

We are part of the model railroad operations hobby so we spend hours at a time standing on concrete floors. We used rubber mats on one of ours then built a floating wood floor above the concrete on another one and gave the mats to the owner of a model railroad we operate on every month. But, I still had to have knee replacements done while younger than they recommended. I now have beck problems that keep me from operating but Dave once again goes to sessions several times a month for 3-4 hours each time.

Linda

[GlennWest]

17 hours ago, Randyretired said:

I have heard good things about rockwool including how fire resistant it is.  I have also heard good things about blown in insulation and spray insulation.  Often times good ole fiberglass is cheaper.  I think it just comes down to finances and which is the best bang for the buck.  By that I mean will it save on energy enough to make it worthwhile. The vapor barrier can make or break any insulation.  Actually the better insulation  makes the vapor barrier more critical.  Some are now saying air sealing is actually more important than insulation.

Spray foam is costly. Seals up great. I will have to wrap it good for seal if not spray foam. I can insulate myself with rock wool.  Fiberglass is cheaper but not dense like rock wool.  The area in a pole built leaves a around 4" behind studs. A 6" post with 2X4 runs horizontal for siding. Then studs for interior out to mate up with posts. So basically stacking insulation next to siding. Then a run of rockwool flushing out studs. It would be about an r30. I would have to find some way to support the fiberglass at the siding. My thinking the rockwool would support itself. I am undecided about roof vent. I undecided about the hot water system. Either Sanden CO2 heat pump or a propane tankless unit. The Sanden uses a inside tank and would like to put it in attic. So benefit in heating it. If I go propane would do stove also. If Saden unit go convection range.

Edited November 4, 2021 by GlennWest

[Randyretired]

I have also seen a post building that had R30 fiberglass Batts stacked horizontal.   The 2x's were all run horizontal.   Drywall on the interior but paneling would also work.  The insulation was slightly compressed around the 2x's.  The owner loved it and said his bills were low for whatever that means.  It was inexpensive for sure.  I will be talking with a couple of insulation companies for our new place.  On the house we have now it was actually cheaper to hire it out than diy.  

[Randyretired]

47 minutes ago, sandsys said:

We are part of the model railroad operations hobby so we spend hours at a time standing on concrete floors. We used rubber mats on one of ours then built a floating wood floor above the concrete on another one and gave the mats to the owner of a model railroad we operate on every month. But, I still had to have knee replacements done while younger than they recommended. I now have beck problems that keep me from operating but Dave once again goes to sessions several times a month for 3-4 hours each time.

Linda

Our present home has concrete in the basement and suspended concrete on the main floor.  This is done for in-floor heat.  We carpeted some of the areas to soften things but I don't like carpet.   The insulation value of carpet also isn't helpful for in-floor heat.  If we don't like all concrete we may add some carpet. 

[GlennWest]

2 hours ago, Randyretired said:

I have also seen a post building that had R30 fiberglass Batts stacked horizontal.   The 2x's were all run horizontal.   Drywall on the interior but paneling would also work.  The insulation was slightly compressed around the 2x's.  The owner loved it and said his bills were low for whatever that means.  It was inexpensive for sure.  I will be talking with a couple of insulation companies for our new place.  On the house we have now it was actually cheaper to hire it out than diy.  

That's interesting. I thought the fiberglass would compact on top of itself. Know they make fiberglass Matt. Need to go look at it. Would definitely save money. All that is required on our area is r19. Usually mild winters but hot summers. My r30 be definitely great regardless which i used

Edited November 4, 2021 by GlennWest

[GlennWest]

Mentioned hot water heat pump a few posts back. Every time i look them up they seem high cost than last time. Believe I should use the high efficiency propane outdoor tankless unit.  

[sandsys]

Family used spray foam from inside an existing house. It found every exterior hole and went right on through into the tree outside. Like frosting a Christmas tree. Pretty but not desirable. 

Linda

[GlennWest]

Yes, that is why one seals all openings before insulation. That was a big no no.

[Randyretired]

6 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Mentioned hot water heat pump a few posts back. Every time i look them up they seem high cost than last time. Believe I should use the high efficiency propane outdoor tankless unit.  

Just because it is the new way doesn't mean it makes economic sense.   Efficiency only goes so far with me.  If it doesn't pay for itself I'm not likely to use it.  I will use a high efficiency propane hot water heater for hotwater and in-floor heat.  There will also be solar hotwater that should shoulder most of the heating and hotwater load.  I put a system like that in our present home and it works for us.  It does require a lot of work and unless you already have equipment  it is expensive.

[GlennWest]

Not really researched solar hot water. Know of it but no research

[Kirk W]

10 hours ago, Randyretired said:

There will also be solar hotwater that should shoulder most of the heating and hotwater load. 

The catch for me would be the payback time for the installation cost versus the savings of electricity or propane expenses. 

[Randyretired]

3 hours ago, Kirk W said:

The catch for me would be the payback time for the installation cost versus the savings of electricity or propane expenses. 

The payback time is most important for me.  With solar hotwater it is difficult to store the heat and operate at moderate temperatures to gain efficiency.  The soils engineer specified 3' of structural fill under the concrete floor.  I am using that as a heat sink by insulating the sides and bottom.  Pex tubing is run through this fill and the concrete and is circulated through the hotwater panels when the panels are warmer than the floor and the thermostat is calling for heat.  Heating this mass which weighs in the 7 figures is slow and will retain heat for  days.  Pex tubing and the hotwater panels are not expensive and the pumps are small maybe 100 watts to slowly circulate the water.   Since the fill is already required I don't count it as part of the heating cost.  As you might guess the cost of hauling and handling that much material is substantial. It is needed to remedy expansive soil.  If it were for heat only it wouldn't pay.   Some people use large water tanks to store hotwater heat but that is costly.  If higher temperatures are used to make better use of the storage medium, solar panel efficiency drops quickly. With it heating the floor 80 degrees is usually more than enough for a well insulated house.  Propane backup is also planned.

[Kirk W]

24 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

With it heating the floor 80 degrees is usually more than enough for a well insulated house.  Propane backup is also planned.

Back when we were living in WY I did a lot of research on passive solar homes and had thought that we would build an earth sheltered, passive solar home for retirement. As it happened we moved to TX 11 years before I was eligible for early retirement and decided to be fulltimers instead so we never built that house. I'll be very interested to hear how things progress. 

[Randyretired]

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

Back when we were living in WY I did a lot of research on passive solar homes and had thought that we would build an earth sheltered, passive solar home for retirement. As it happened we moved to TX 11 years before I was eligible for early retirement and decided to be fulltimers instead so we never built that house. I'll be very interested to hear how things progress. 

Our current house that we built nearly 20 years ago has this type of heat but at a lower elevation.  We like how it works.  We also have a lot of south facing windows somewhat like a passive solar home.  The windows and solar do a good job of heating but the windows heat the house more than we like on sunny winter days. Even though the temperatures are cool or even cold we have to open windows to keep the house from getting hot on bright sunny days.  That intense sun all day also gets a little annoying.  Overall it isn't bad and the low heating bills are a plus.  Our current house is to big for us at 3,800 Sq ft but our annual propane bill for heating and hotwater runs around $200 for an entire year. For Colorado that is pretty cheap.  Luckily our propane tank is full now as the prices have jumped this year.  The new place will have more solar panels and less south facing windows.  The floor plan is such that we will spend more time on the north side out of the direct sun and it is a lot smaller house.  The garage is a bit bigger.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Randyretired

[sandsys]

26 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

the windows heat the house more than we like on sunny winter days. Even though the temperatures are cool or even cold we have to open windows to keep the house from getting hot on bright sunny days.

Dave's parent experienced that in Minnesota on the north shore overlooking Lake Superior. All of us having lived all our lives in Minnesota, having to open the windows in the winter to let the heat out was a new experience.

Linda

[GlennWest]

In my area mild winters normal. Don't see a big benefit in solar heating water. Now in an area with long bitter winters, yes. Believe the gas hot water heater work well for us. Actually just the mini split is all I actually need. But want warm floors. Radiant heat cheapest, economical route.

Edited November 6, 2021 by GlennWest

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, Randyretired said:

For Colorado that is pretty cheap.  Luckily our propane tank is full now as the prices have jumped this year. 

I was quite surprised when researching the practicalities of solar to discover in a listing of best locations for passive solar homes by county, of the top 20, 3 were in WY and either 2 or 3 were in CO. It was a study by one of the major universities but it was also back in the 1980's. It considered the possibility of solar gain as compared to both need for heating and the need for cooling. There were counties that were ruled out because of excessive heat gain. I did some searching but there doesn't seem to be anything of that type on the internet and even if I still have that report, it would probably be out dated. We had friends on a WY ranch who cut back a hill, built the house and then pushed the hill back over the house. Approaching the house from the northwest all that showed was a cupola like riser that allowed sunshine into the interior and ventilation that was about the center of the house. Another friend on the outskirts of Cheyenne built a house with berms on the north and west walls. Living in an area with tornadoes I have thought that an earth shelter would be a good choice, but don't recall ever seeing any of them in this area. 

[Randyretired]

Glenn, I would think that the payback on solar heating where you are would almost never happen.  I think you are right to use some propane and call it good.  Cooling seems like it would be the major expense and the mini split is as efficient as anything I know unless you also buried the house.

[Randyretired]

33 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

I was quite surprised when researching the practicalities of solar to discover in a listing of best locations for passive solar homes by county, of the top 20, 3 were in WY and either 2 or 3 were in CO. It was a study by one of the major universities but it was also back in the 1980's. It considered the possibility of solar gain as compared to both need for heating and the need for cooling. There were counties that were ruled out because of excessive heat gain. I did some searching but there doesn't seem to be anything of that type on the internet and even if I still have that report, it would probably be out dated. We had friends on a WY ranch who cut back a hill, built the house and then pushed the hill back over the house. Approaching the house from the northwest all that showed was a cupola like riser that allowed sunshine into the interior and ventilation that was about the center of the house. Another friend on the outskirts of Cheyenne built a house with berms on the north and west walls. Living in an area with tornadoes I have thought that an earth shelter would be a good choice, but don't recall ever seeing any of them in this area. 

Here in Grand Junction where we are now many of the older homes were buried with just the roof sticking out. This was to keep the homes cool. Summers here see many consecutive days in the upper 90's and some days into the lower 100's in this valley.  It would also be easy to heat in the winters. If we didn't have cooling of some kind I think that would work but be claustrophobic.   I like lots of windows.  The new place is higher and there is a pond and it is much cooler. This means lots of wildlife so more windows are on tap.  I love to watch the deer, elk and occasional bears.  Sometimes others including a stray moose, bobcat and mountain lion wonder by.  There is saying that there are 300 plus days of sunshine here and though I think that is a slight  exaggeration there are many sunshine days in the summer, fall, winter and spring.  The low humidity and lack of clouds are ideal for solar.  It is somewhat rare to have clouds and moisture more than just a couple of days in a row.