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(Another) New project


phoenix2013

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Casting house delivered a bunch of jaws and blocks,

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to be incorporated into new Super Binkleys.

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There's milling and boring involved to turn the raw castings into useful parts.

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Farming out the work is always the option but it increases the cost of parts dramatically. Got real hots for one of these.

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Yea, I know you machinists will tell me these are toys, get a used Bridgeport, but from what I have seen used Bridgeports for this kind of money are a crap shoot and if they have a (working) DR on them the sellers think they are trading in gold. This would only see the work you see and maybe make few more fixtures. Opinions?

 

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The machine you posted is not that bad for what it is, a Bridgeport is a flimsy machine a well. Boring the king pin hole IMHO should be done with a boring head and, to full size in one pass. Boring and drilling holes in the jaws require no lateral movement, a jig bore or even a "real' Drill Press should do the trick. Fixturing is where I would concentrate my efforts. Make fixtures that can be located via the spindle on what ever machine you choose. As long as the spindle is true you simply set the fixture and clamp to what ever floats your boat.

 

Steve

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That's the extend of operations and sequence of operations on the jaws.

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1 and 3 are lateral passes 2 is boring. Before anything starts we pass a .993" reamer through the pivot holes but that only cleans out few thousands of uneven surface. Material is ductile iron, relatively soft in comparison to steel.

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Hey, you old goat,

I was wondering if that was the machine the Doctors are going to use on you to FIX YOUR KNEES? Just joking of course, but wanted to let you know we are thinking of you, and hope you do get fixed up, and find some comfort, at last! The rebuild on our hitch didn't help much with the ride on the 5th, because even after 50K or so miles on the ET, it was still in good condition. I think the air ride we have just has about 4" of travel, still looking into that, because when we release the air, the trailer only squats 2". Our Mor/Ryde had about 7" of travel, and the roads we travel needs all of that. Maybe we ate bottoming out? Anyway, hope your replacement goes well. Dick & Susan T

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Operations 1 and 3; how much material removal and what do you reference? The left and right jaws are symmetrical ? I would do op 1 and 3 face up ganged on a bar through the pivot hole..

 

The spindle on the mill/drill type machines is not optimized for side loads, it is a hopped up drill column. It would work but you may have to do several light passes. Do you need a particular radius in op3, an end mill with a standard radius corner could do that.

 

Steve

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Hey, you old goat,

I was wondering if that was the machine the Doctors are going to use on you to FIX YOUR KNEES? Just joking of course, but wanted to let you know we are thinking of you, and hope you do get fixed up, and find some comfort, at last! The rebuild on our hitch didn't help much with the ride on the 5th, because even after 50K or so miles on the ET, it was still in good condition. I think the air ride we have just has about 4" of travel, still looking into that, because when we release the air, the trailer only squats 2". Our Mor/Ryde had about 7" of travel, and the roads we travel needs all of that. Maybe we ate bottoming out? Anyway, hope your replacement goes well. Dick & Susan T

 

We have to get our heads together to see what gives. How did the screw drive straightening work out?

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Henry,

Had to take 5th back to Missouri, and replace the rails on that one slide. I don't know how you find folks like David, but if he hadn't fix that screw like he did, we would never been able to make it back to the factory, then get everything realigned and replaced. Even after the rebuild on the rails, we're still using the screw that David rebuilt. BTW, thanks for all You and your Bride did for us while we were there. Again, hope all goes well on your rebuild/replacement. Dick & Susan T

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Operations 1 and 3; how much material removal and what do you reference? The left and right jaws are symmetrical ? I would do op 1 and 3 face up ganged on a bar through the pivot hole..

 

The spindle on the mill/drill type machines is not optimized for side loads, it is a hopped up drill column. It would work but you may have to do several light passes. Do you need a particular radius in op3, an end mill with a standard radius corner could do that.

 

Steve

 

Steve, here's couple of drawings telling you the sizes of these things.

 

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How do you like this dimension overload.

 

I worked with a shop that actually took these dimension, programmed them in a three axis CNC and made bunch in tool steel.

 

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These guys were good

 

What we take off from the raw castings isn't much. Mybe .030-.050" lateral in # 1, .050-.100" lateral in # 3 and maybe .020" max boring, mostly less. This is grade # 2 ductile, pretty soft, 170-207 Brinell.

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The CNC is definitely the way to have those parts machined. If the quantity is good the piece price can really come down. And as stated before fixtures can really reduce that setup time. I would still take a used Bridgeport over that drill/mill anytime. And the price for a used one is about the same. Has the cast parts had issues that would require the tool steel parts? On a CNC machine it's all in the hands of the programer. Pat

 

 

The Old Sailor

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The first op is reaming the pivots, the pivot hole is an ideal locating point for the two flats. The jaws are the same on the outside so, fixture the jaws with the flats facing up with a rod going through the pivot holes. Make a sub plate with the correct angle to normalize each flat, use the rod in the pivots with nuts to tighten all the jaws together with enough extending on either side to stands that locate the jaws. Use another bar or strap to hold the jaws in the king pin radius. The sub plate could have the pivot axle in the center and a pocket milled on either side for the two operations. So the drill would be, thread X number of jaws onto pivot axle, snug with axle nut. Place jaws in pocket for detail required, clamp strap in king pin radius. Install pivot axle stands and tighten everything up. Use an end mill with the corner radius for both cuts, if the machine has 6" of Y travel all you do is flip the jaw stack to do the other face cut.

 

I would suggest you get a boring head the has an integral cutting edge and bore the king pin hole in one pass. There is much less spring back and the geometry nearly eliminates chatter. On any light duty machine chatter is going to be your most daunting issue.

 

Steve

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Henry,

 

Several months ago we chatted on the phone about this ongoing fetish / love affair that you have with this "LGM" (Arnold-speak for "Little-Girlie-Mill").

 

Obviously being also a geezer I know how "love-affairs" tend to morph into ........machinery with the advance of several decades we geezers tend to start to appreciate better handling wheel chairs, walkers, swoopy-canes . and that favorite the concealed-carry-leg-bag.........

 

Ok enough........back to the machine shop........yes Henry indeed a few months have flew by but your parts are still cast of Iron and you still have interrupted cuts and every machinist hates interrupted cuts for a very good reason ........Interrupted cuts is "the-playground-of-chatter"

and a "LGM" light weight mill is a sure road to scraped parts and pulled out hair....(We geezers can't afford to lose much hair Henry).

 

Henry face it.....you make the best damn hitch on planet earth......its heavy built,......its stronger than garlic on a mob-hit-mans breath........AND your hitches do NOT CHATTER........so.........ya you could buy a cheaper hitch .....BUT the cheaper hitch just won't be the same it won't even be close.........

 

So.........Henry do what I do............go buy that cheep new LGM that you have your heart set on ........when the truck delivers it to your shop .....savor the "new machine smell" then plug the critter in and make a bunch of chips and smoke and a bucket of scrap parts then list the LGM on craigslist and let some other sucker make some scrap parts of his own..........better yet get on your local craigslist and buy a half-price LGM from a sucker just down the street that has already made his quota of scrap parts...........Shucks Henry I have done this countless times and you know that way when you finally knuckle-down and buy the right machine to do the job right you will have a SMILE a mile wide just like you see on your customers face when they see their own BEST HITCH IN THE WORLD mounted on their HDT........They are BIG-DOGS......not piddling-pups.......

 

Get the LGM right away.......then you can quickly move on the the "cure".......just in time for breaking-in your knees.......

 

Drive on.........(Quality makes you.....smile)

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I have a LOT of heavy iron, around 100 tons of American machine tools. I agree with the idea of a nice ole Merican machine but, the material is rather easy to machine and the depth of cut is rather small. If the king pin hole is only .020-030 under size the interrupted cut is not a big deal (with the right tooling) One thing I will point out; all the small mills that includes Bridgeports, that use R8 spindle tooling have expensive gimmicky tooling when compared to CAT, BT or NMTB tooling. I buy tooling on ebay for a few cents on the dollar for my mills, CAT and related taper tooling is a fraction of R8 tooling because, everybody has a B-port and no factories use it.

 

I have a CO boring bar that will be pretty rigid in the R8 spindle if you can find a MT4 collet. CO tooling is Swiss and made primarily for SIP Jig Bores, I have them in sizes from 5/8 to 6 inch. You don't need that level of fit and finish but, you do need a boring bar that is near net size with just a cutting edge off the side. For the light milling you mentioned on the flats, a nice old jig bore would work. The issue there is most small jig bores do have power feed on the X axis. If you really want to impress get an old SIP #2 or3 size jig bore, these are the Rolex of Jig Bores made in Switzerland, you could probbally find one for about the cost of the Griz. They are just a bit more massive maybe 5000 pounds.

 

I also agree that a lightly used Griz or other Square column machine is likely near by. Lots of guys buy them and get bored or frustrated or both!

 

Steve

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The CNC is definitely the way to have those parts machined. If the quantity is good the piece price can really come down. And as stated before fixtures can really reduce that setup time. I would still take a used Bridgeport over that drill/mill anytime. And the price for a used one is about the same. Has the cast parts had issues that would require the tool steel parts? On a CNC machine it's all in the hands of the programer. Pat

 

 

The Old Sailor

The cast parts are bullet proof, this design has been around for over thirty years (with cast parts) without any known incident of ever failing. The steel parts were made during my days of frustration trying to find a casting house that would take this on, sort of proof of concept exercise. But the cost of doing these on a CNC, even in quantity, was prohibitive compared to sand molds and ductile casting.

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Dolly, I do remember the admonishment you gave me when I posted the same question few months ago (when I was screwing around with the prototype batch of parts from the casting house). I have always admired things of quality and tools and equipment that perform reliably. Recently I bought a mag drill,

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my second one, when after 10,000 holes I burnt out the first one. (It is repaired now and working again) I spent twice as much on the new one as the old one. Why, each hitch has over 120 mag drilled holes, I wanted something that would go reliably beyond 10,000 holes and not having one for two weeks was a PITA. I love quality, I loved my Stinson airplanes, the classic SE Mercedes Benz convertible,

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my B-3 Hammond organ, my Volvo HDT, my Royals International fifth, etc., etc. But with advanced age (and lousy knees) reality, limitations and "new wisdom" encroaches. My days of "commanding" companies with 10,000 square feet of engineering and manufacturing space are long gone and over. Now I am a Jedi Master commanding a two car garage.

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I might add to the chagrin of my lovely wife who has tolerated my vagaries for close to five decades.

I am performing "miracles" in that space as you can see here,

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But the mill and couple other big things will have to go into the space in the far end, beyond the racks, that I have to empty and tackle. Also, at my advance age I AM NOT GOING TO BECOME A MACHINIST! The two cuts and the one bore is all I am planning on doing. Now, I am planning to do a lot of of just plain drilling, many of the 120 holes in the hitch parts that I currently kind of jig and "free hand" with mag drills would be much easier done (and more accurate) secured to a movable table with a digital readout. So I am not madly in love with this "hobby" mill/drill, I know there are better things out there, I am asking for opinions if something like this that would fit in my limited space and the limited work I described planned for it, would do the trick.

 

Incidentally, that band saw you guys see in that picture is also brand new and it came from the much maligned Harbor Freight. After 20% off coupon little over $600 bucks. It came with its blade and blade guides set up absolutely perfectly, you can take off ,050 sliver to trim things off without the blade wandering and it's the same machine that JET and others sell for twice as much, just painted another color. It paid for itself making hitch parts in less than six months by bringing these in house, as opposed to vendors with their multi-thousands dollars super duper band saws charging me for that work. Again, a case where a limited machine is doing just fine doing a limited work.

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Henry,

 

Nice 111 Cab, still have it? I had a 3.5 coupe.

 

While I am a heavy iron guy; I do understand the constraints of suburban living and, the idea your not looking for a new past time :-) The work is not very demanding, the surfaces are not +- tenths or have some critical feature. The mill you want CAN do the work. I too have a HF band saw and, was quite impressed at the quality.

 

I will give you a good analogy of small Asian tools Vs heavy iron. I had a small job that required cutting some rail, crane rail is a bit heavier than railroad rail. My big DoAll cut off saw was not positioned to make a few cuts, the little saw went to the work. Great asset to have portable tools, anyway, the HF saw relentlessly went about its task. About 10 min into the cut I go see the progress, just scratching the surface. After determining the proper weight to hang on the saw to cut but not derail the blade it took about 15 min to make a cut. I had to encourage the cut at the base flange to make that time. In contrast the DoAll cuts the same stock in under 2 min. The difference; 2HP Vs 7.5 the guide blocks on the DoAll are as massive as the frame on the little saw, the big saw was designed to cut up to 12X16 all day. The same applies to your job. In a production environment a dedicated machine could whip out hundred of jaws an hour. For your needs, if it takes an extra pass for the deepest face cut so be it, I bet your help works cheap! I will reiterate; spending the time and money to build goods fixtures is key. This is a place where you want to enlist the skills of good shop to do the sub base, you could get your feet wet making the stands on the little machine.

 

 

Steve

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Henry,
As always your case is well stated........when you ask a machinist for a opinion you are likely to get more than you ask for......

Your lack of floor space would likely be a tight fit for even the smallest Bridgeport even if the mill was in the middle of your floor space.

The first time mill buyer almost always installs a Bridgeport in a corner of the shop only to find out very soon that table travels take up more space than they ever dreamed..........

The work space bubble around a mill is larger than most people imagine.........sure your part of interest fits in the palm of your hand but mills are funny animals.....they are so darn handy that soon you find a 12 foot bar of 2x2 sq tube clamped to the table getting 1/2 " slots milled .............just like a guy buying a shinny new pickup to pickup chicks.....someday the guy needs to haul something in the bed of the pickup and then he gets hooked on the second use of the machine......mills are the same way......

Machinists tend to focus on the part, tooling, and fixtures.........but you are correct to consider the machine bubble........so send your bride to visit the grandkids for a week and when she gets back she will likely not notice that you knocked the garage wall and now have a nice mill in the center of the living room......if you do that ......you will forget your knee pains.....

Drive on..........( keep your bubble.....clear)

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Henry,

 

Nice 111 Cab, still have it? I had a 3.5 coupe.

 

While I am a heavy iron guy; I do understand the constraints of suburban living and, the idea your not looking for a new past time :-) The work is not very demanding, the surfaces are not +- tenths or have some critical feature. The mill you want CAN do the work. I too have a HF band saw and, was quite impressed at the quality.

 

I will give you a good analogy of small Asian tools Vs heavy iron. I had a small job that required cutting some rail, crane rail is a bit heavier than railroad rail. My big DoAll cut off saw was not positioned to make a few cuts, the little saw went to the work. Great asset to have portable tools, anyway, the HF saw relentlessly went about its task. About 10 min into the cut I go see the progress, just scratching the surface. After determining the proper weight to hang on the saw to cut but not derail the blade it took about 15 min to make a cut. I had to encourage the cut at the base flange to make that time. In contrast the DoAll cuts the same stock in under 2 min. The difference; 2HP Vs 7.5 the guide blocks on the DoAll are as massive as the frame on the little saw, the big saw was designed to cut up to 12X16 all day. The same applies to your job. In a production environment a dedicated machine could whip out hundred of jaws an hour. For your needs, if it takes an extra pass for the deepest face cut so be it, I bet your help works cheap! I will reiterate; spending the time and money to build goods fixtures is key. This is a place where you want to enlist the skills of good shop to do the sub base, you could get your feet wet making the stands on the little machine.

 

 

Steve

 

We had the cabriolet for 10 years. Wife (girlfriend then) fell in love with one at the New York Car Show. We got married, had a kid, she got a job as a Director of Nursing Services at a hospital. One day a physician parked one in the parking lot. That was it! She dragged me to a Mercedes dealer where she found another one. We were young, I was young, Iwas still emptying my ignorance barrel and refilling it with life wisdom, necessary and various skills and a topping the barrel with ornery attitude. Started working on it, doing minor restorations, but doing this through a dealer is stupidly expensive, so I got pissed and we sold it, Stupid because soon after I attained the skills (airplane restoration, etc.) and my ornery attitude really blossomed. I found the car couple years later, it had another (well healed) owner, who was shipping it to Stuttgart, Germany Mercedes company for professional restoration. Do you know what these things are worth in A1 restored condition?

Screen%2BShot%2B03-11-16%2Bat%2B02.23%2B

 

Mine wasn't this model and it was few years older (1995), but they are still worth stupid money.

 

Dolly, is this an additional proof that I like quality?

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Henry I 've been a machinist for 53 years(the first few more of a sweeper/helper) but always learning. I don't think a week is enough time for the DW to visit the grandchildren. It took me over 3 months to cut a 8' hole in my shops side wall and add a 14 X 22' machine shop. I put a 14 " Rockwell lathe, Bridgeport mill, drill press, small welder, grinders and anything else that anything to do with machine work in there. Both machines work on 3 phase so I hard wired a Phase Inverter for them. This also is another reason the HOA doesn't like me. Dollytrolly was right the mill use to be in the corner but now it has its on wall. All of my stuff is pre 1975 so I don't have any CNC machines. Before I retired(1995 30 yrs Navy) I use to get a lot of local shops to do machine work for us(5 yrs job shop then 15 as a defense contractor at Norfolk Naval Base) so I know several shops that help me get work done that I can't do. Here in Norfolk/Tidewater area all of the foundries have closed up. I enjoy building fighting chairs for sport fishing boats and I have to have my parts cast up north or midwest. OSHA. Then I machine them. I was in HF today. Bought a lot of little stuff. No tools today. When we did the work on the Pete a few weeks back broke a couple of impact tools and they changed them on the spot. I have some stuff that will help you forget your knee pains, the DW gave me 2 Aleve but I Like Makers Mark. I know you won't be at the ECR but the main thing is to get those !!!! knees fixed. Thoughts and prayers be with you. Pat

 

 

The Old Sailor

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Henry,

 

I know all too well what classic Mercedes coupes and convertibles are worth, I had a Mercedes only shop that specialized in performance work and restoration. My biggest fish story was a 1954 220 coupe one of 12 made, should had done anything to keep it, my ex-wife cost me that one! I actually am looking for a 220SEb or 250SE coupe right now.

 

The jaw casting look fantastic for sand cast, it IS getting hard to find someplace to pour small runs in steel and iron.

 

In looking at boring bars for R8 spindles, a 2" hole is going to be hard to find a solid bar, have you considered a reamer? A stepped or progressive reamer would do the king pins in no time consistently with amount of material you want to remove. A reamer in a collet would be far more rigid than a boring head as well.

 

Steve

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We had the cabriolet for 10 years. Wife (girlfriend then) fell in love with one at the New York Car Show. We got married, had a kid, she got a job as a Director of Nursing Services at a hospital. One day a physician parked one in the parking lot. That was it! She dragged me to a Mercedes dealer where she found another one. We were young, I was young, Iwas still emptying my ignorance barrel and refilling it with life wisdom, necessary and various skills and a topping the barrel with ornery attitude. Started working on it, doing minor restorations, but doing this through a dealer is stupidly expensive, so I got pissed and we sold it, Stupid because soon after I attained the skills (airplane restoration, etc.) and my ornery attitude really blossomed. I found the car couple years later, it had another (well healed) owner, who was shipping it to Stuttgart, Germany Mercedes company for professional restoration. Do you know what these things are worth in A1 restored condition?

Screen%2BShot%2B03-11-16%2Bat%2B02.23%2B

 

Mine wasn't this model and it was few years older (1995), but they are still worth stupid money.

 

Dolly, is this an additional proof they are like quality?

 

Henry,

 

When you reach up to the 280 SE visor and punch the hanger auto-door opener and gracefully sweep into the hanger and softly stop under the wing tip of your 108-3 Voyager in matching Deep Metallic Emerald ...............Oh....Oh ......you will need a Two Jedi Laser Sabers to fight off the chicks........Life is sooooo sweet.......(who needs a mill?)

 

 

 

Drive / Fly on.........(Henry the chick......slayer)

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Henry,

 

When you reach up to the 280 SE visor and punch the hanger auto-door opener and gracefully sweep into the hanger and softly stop under the wing tip of your 108-3 Voyager in matching Deep Metallic Emerald ...............Oh....Oh ......you will need a Two Jedi Laser Sabers to fight off the chicks........Life is sooooo sweet.......(who needs a mill?)

 

 

 

Drive / Fly on.........(Henry the chick......slayer)

 

 

Dolly, just to get philosophical for a moment, things kind of wane in ones seventh decade on this earth, as does the energy level and physical activities, but not the drive to "still do something that matters". And it's good to have a store of rich memories of ones youth, careers and life lived well and to the fullest. It's all gone now (except for the pictures), but man, was it fun when one was fully engaged in process of acquiring these things and experiencing them.

 

Reading some of your exploits I detect a kindred spirit, even though we never met, except on the pages of this forum.

 

Why am I in this reflective mood?

 

Yesterday, we were visited by a couple who retired to the same city in Florida where we are now. He was just elected to be the president of the Escapees Chapter # 3 in Northeast, a chapter I ran as a President for six years bunch of years ago (looking for "historical" perspective and tips). One of the tips I "gently" suggested was that if you run something, run it, leave your imprint on the organization, if things need to change, change it. Then In our further conversation he kind of lifted a glimpse on who he was http://ltcolwthanson.tateauthor.com/about-the-author/ a pilot, a warrior, an author, a musician and a poet. An individual who did not need tips from me on leadership or too many other things. Another life lived to the fullest, rich in content and events. I started reading his signed book he left me, fascinating. I am looking forward to a fast friendship, many hours of "reminiscing", attending concerts together, etc., etc. It's people like this, that make the tapestry of life vivid. I have to add though, that there are many examples of folks like this in this group I meet at the Rallies.

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