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Guest cindona

I will say that from a money making not a tree hugger perspective the clean energy markets are IMHO goi8ng to provide terrific opportunities to those that take the time to really look at what is happening now. Especially after the Solyndra fiasco. There are some amazing opportunities there but I have to wait for now. However about private industry being all in to clean energy tech the NY times had a great and insightful article today about the sector:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/12/business/energy-environment/a-cornucopia-of-help-for-renewable-energy.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2

 

What I'm about to say has nothing to do with making money via the clean energy market, because I am not a tree hugger, and believe we should be drilling....anyway, twice now you have linked to and made references about Solyndra, as if somehow half a billion taxpayer dollars that went *poof* into thin air (directly into someone's pocket) doesn't matter. Maybe it's just me, but you seem to casually dismiss the severity of Solyndra.

 

It wasnt a mere fiasco, Solyndra was a complete failure, just as the three other solar companies that have gone bankrupt after receiving guarantees/loans from the federal government were. The clowns in D.C. are handing billions of taxpayer dollars over to companies that can't manage to stay in business, because they can't compete with China.

Apparently, these clean energy companies cannot afford to start up without billions from uncle Sam.. Where are the Boone Pickens? And, if any clean energy company is successful, our electricity rates are going to go through the roof. In the article you linked above, there are four references to that fact.....no big deal?

 

I'm sure my warn bar will go up again, but, oh well.

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Cindona that is apples and oranges. But nice try I am not going political even if you are the OP of this thread, I will let you get your thread shut down all by yourself. Have you considered starting your own blog and website like I have and many others and then start up a free forum using free forum software strictly for political arguments and discussions? I don't have that on mine simply because I am not interested in moderating people who can't abide simple rules. Nor will I moderate here. You will also note on my site that I have some pretty warped humor, and much writing, on it with and no politics or religion anywhere on it. And I make the rules there. So why would you try to use me as a foil to espouse politics here? Sorry, not biting and I am out of your thread before it blows up by your own hand.

 

You need a podium Cindona, why aren't you building one to see if they come? Running a website and forum isn't expensive and is easy to do. And it is quite acceptable to do that, no restrictions on you that way. Wouldn't that be fun for you?

Edited by RV

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I for one have rode this bucking bronco long enough and as of Monday I moved ALL investments into a "Money Market U.S. Treasury Fund", not sure if this is the correct place to park both my cash accounts and retirement accounts but for now this is what I am doing. What with all of the turmoil in Europe and even here at home with the riots and sit-ins I am very fearful of what is to come next. I think there might be one more market rally (suckers rally) before years end and then we are heading for much bigger problems and higher unemployment, I think it could be 3 or 4 more years be for its time to get back into the market.

 

Gold is not a buy at this time although it might become so if there is a large enough of pull back.

 

Anyway my thoughts on what is going to happen.

 

ESW

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And I too would be horrified if anyone thinks I am recommending buying US long term treasuries now. Now is the time to be selling! The only way safely "to cheer" about a 24% return YTD is to take it...we are. We now only have a token amount in the fund to keep it open.

 

Cheers john

 

 

I would agree with you John. With short term rates about as low as they can possibly go the only thing a long term bond return can do is remain static or go down.

 

Jim

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Here are a few of the better quotes I have read today about yesterday's Fed action and the resulting surge in stocks. Yesterday was a great day to have been long stocks, any stocks! I wish I had been in and I emphasize "had been in," because it was a great day to end the day with "getting out!" IMHO of course.

 

"Stocks are bits of businesses. And businesses do not make more money just because the central banks print money. If this were not so, a few years ago, Zimbabwe’s companies would have been the most profitable on earth. Under the leadership of Gideon Gono, the central bank of Zimbabwe was printing up trillion-dollar notes and handing them out all over town. Trouble was, you couldn’t even buy a cup of coffee with them. In fact, you couldn’t buy a cup of coffee anyway…the whole economy was in such disarray nobody could get any coffee. Or anything else."

 

"The overly indebted — perhaps fatally indebted — financial institutions who will avail themselves of this lending facility will be just as indebted tomorrow as they are today."

 

“Once the central banks start lending to insolvent banks, there can be no orderly exit. When sovereign defaults occur, there will be an acceleration of money-printing to keep the system propped up.”

 

And finally, a rather long one, but I like funny ones. The following quote is from an article that explains the Fed's willingness to provide as much "swap line" liquidity (money) as needed.

 

"What are unlimited and open-ended swap lines, after all, if not an institutionalized form of “layering” — an activity the Patriot Act specifically defines as “money-laundering”? According to the Act, “layering is the stage of laundering in which the origin and trail of funds introduced into the financial system are hidden by creating layers of transactions.”

 

Hmmm…let’s see now…if the Federal Reserve prints dollars, then “swaps” those dollars with some foreign bank, that then distributes those dollars to make loans, make new investments, repay credit lines etc. etc. etc., those original “ill-gotten” dollars from the Fed would have flowed through so many layers that no one could ever trace their source back to Ben Bernanke’s printing press.

 

Perhaps someone should notify the authorities. The Fed is engaged in highly suspicious, un-American activities. We may have a domestic terrorist on our hands…or at least a domestic monetary terrorist."

:D

 

Cheers John

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Cindona,

You act as if this was unexpected down to the media and consumer confidence going negative. If you go back in my posts on Tesla, I expected this exactly at this time period. I said that anybody wanting to buy in for long term will get one last chance as during the time they stop selling Roadsters and before they start delivering the Model S sedans (Dec 2011 to June 2012) they will tank one more time for a buy opportunity. Last week I thought about selling at 34.95 and then hope it tanked to buy more shares with the same money as I thought it would. But as I said I am in it for at least until the Model S is being delivered. Trying to "predict" the exact moments to buy and sell a volatile stock with the intent of staying in it is a fools game, as things can cause a loss that holding prevents. But seeing clearly that the Model S has between 5000 and 10,000 advance $5000.00 deposits, refundable of course, and that they will spend all of their liquid assets to finish the factory and build them, which is the normal flow of production and was known back when Motley hated them and later loved them and now hate them again. For example if I sold at 34.95 and was wrong about another big drop in price that I expected, I could have ended up with less shares. Being wrong on that is fine. I hope for 22.50 for another buy for me. Not bravado here, it is posted in my links here already.

 

Go here to post number 43 in this thread:

http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=93326&st=40

 

That was last August and I mentioned that I was looking for a big drop right about now between the time they stopped selling the Roadster and had missed a buying opportunity the week before. Well it dropped again and I bought, and again mentioned that it would tank again and consumer confidence would go down because they are a real threat to the ICE industry, and because with building the factory and doing the development of the Model S preproduction what is expected is now happening. Just like they did with the roadster that was a success that sold out the entire first two years production in advance with 100% deposits, and has been in continuous production and on the road since 2008. Everyone then said it would not happen and never get into production and then that it would never sell.

 

As I also said in post #69 here, this was coming and I am getting together what I can to buy. This is a buying opportunity.

 

Motley Fool? You mean the folks that flip flop 180 every few months on Tesla? Go to post 10 in this thread and there is a link where Motley said essentially the same thing. Then in Post 25 Motley loves TESLA. But glad you brought it up. If it goes under 22.50 I will buy whatever I can with whatever I can spare. Anybody can have stars in their eyes and say they made a wise investment. Anybody can throw stones like Motley and not own but say it is a bad investment, then change their minds a few months later. It is rare for one to predict within a few months that a stock will dunk and then rise again, not because they want it to prove anything, but because they want to buy more at every buy opportunity.

 

Being a self proclaimed novice I can lead no one in investing. I will continue to follow the rule of buy low sell high. I am loving the volatility. Why? Because I know Elon Musk will bring it home. Just like the Roadster and the Falcon Rocket with his company Space X, and like he did with his company Pay Pa which he sold. I love the fact that while I make money, we will be employing American workers and starting up an American Company that has been global from the start. By the way Elon is launching to the ISS in February 2012 with one of his company's (Space X) Falcon Rockets. Go here:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/12/12/date_set_for_first_spacex_dragon_to_iss/

 

Boeing and other folks said that a private small company could not develop and launch a successful new rocket without ten years of development and testing. SpaceX did it in 4 years? Boeing is trying to keep him out by lobby and beltway influence, but Elon is big enough to out them and got some share. Is Boeing too big to fail? Or have they become too big? Boeing's problem is that Space X is way cheaper to use. We are trying to cut budgets right? (Unless it causes problems for Boeing, then we pay much more?) Elon Musk is big enough to not be ignored.

Then again some folks create their own concepts. You remember Paul Allen of MS Fame? And Burt Rutan? They are getting together to create a new much cheaper way to launch spacecraft.

http://www.laobserved.com/biz/2011/12/paul_allen_joined_by.php

 

I am not worried about my investment with Tesla and Musk. I would rather be a part of it and lose (which I believe I won't) than stand around watching. Investing is also about doing things, not just the money. But that boys club has plenty to keep thing successful.;)

 

If you are looking for an opportunity don't say you didn't hear it from me since six months ago. It may go lower but my threshold is 22.50 to buy and I will kick myself if my buy order misses by a few cents and then it goes sky high again. I am secure in buying. Then I can wait to sell high. Selling is the only time you make, or lose money. Once again I am hoping my own stock tanks. The exact words I used back then. I will count my losses or gains after the ModelS is out.

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Oops! Forgot this. One of our members here gave me some good advice about learning options and I am stupid on them and like I said to him that is over my head. But Motley also posted a way for them to make money off the panicky emotional investors by telling them this:

http://www.fool.com/...tors-using.aspx

I was also told that options wipes more folks out than anything. So I didn't say do this. I am just amazed at how the investors are herded like sheep into predictable chutes where they think there is an exit, only to find the hammer. I could sell now and buy later but it also might go back up and I lose shares so that defeats my long term strategy with Tesla. Did I say strategy? Forgive me, I know not what I say. I have no strategy except buy low, sell high or after the Model S has been out a bit TBD then. I honestly don't know anything about the market. Just Elon Musk and Tesla and Space X and Pay Pal.

 

See everybody does not have to buy or even want an electric car that goes 300 miles on a charge, a weeks driving for me. Just enough and that niche seems to be enough to get started. Any other car companies large or small have a full year's production sold out with $5k deposits? Or for that matter sold out the first year of any superclass car with 100% deposits in advance? If so I'll buy shares there too.

Edited by RV

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So John, you didn't answer your own question......... Are you still in? If you can manage to read long enough I think you have been answered here.. :blink:

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So John, you didn't answer your own question......... Are you still in? If you can manage to read long enough I think you have been answered here.. :blink:

 

I have answered twice that I am not in. BTW it was not my question, it was CINDONA'S. And a good question at that.

 

Cheers John

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Kirk,

:D Great chance for you to get in. Look for 22.50 or less. Short enough for you?;)

Edited by RV

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I now doubt Tesla will get down to 22.5 as I hoped it would this cycle, and perhaps not again. The fickle media has done another 180 on the company now stabilizing the downward trend with news of pricing and date of first deliveries for summer 2012 by model. I had hoped to capitalize on a much lower price, and may yet get it temporarily like last August. We want more shares as cheap as possible but can only scrape together 5% of what I have invested with them now, and still keep my minimum cash on hand. So I was again hoping for a record low, and am in the same boat I was in last August and posted on this thread as it happened. Here from today's Seeking Alpha:

Excerpt:

"You can see the detail of all of the pricing and options on Tesla's new web page outlining the everything you need to know about the Model S. Both the pricing and the timing for the Model S are of course key factors with regard to which the market has been looking for confirmation. The fact that the company is on track to meet both commitments is clearly bullish for the stock. Consequently, we remain bullish on Tesla and expect to see a retest of the $34.94 November high.

Disclosure: I am long TSLA."

 

OK the Author of this article, like me, is long on Tesla. Clearly biased. That whole article with pricing and release dates for the different models of the 7 seater Model S luxury all electric sedan that will go, depending on model, from 160 mile range to 300 miles, is the link below. Now get this. Bear in mind this is a comfortable 7 seat luxury family sedan we are talking about. The Performance model can do 0-60 mph in 4.4 seconds - faster than the Porsche 911 Carrera!

http://seekingalpha....ck?source=yahoo

 

Sorry I did think it would tank around the first of the year to March as speculation and fear built up around the end of the Roadster contract with Lotus, and during the lull between that income and the beginning of production and delivery of the Model S which is on time as of now. It may yet yield another perfect buy price which for me is 22.5 or less. But unless I see any more movement I may buy just what I can sooner than later. I am still in and long on Tesla. All production of the first year is already sold out and the second year is being reserved now. What people don't seem to realize is that everybody doesn't have to buy an all electric car for Tesla to be extremely successful and profitable. All they have to do is sell out their production output and keep growing. Having customers in line and prepaid is lagniappe as we say in Louisiana. Remember I do not know anything about investing. I just followed Tesla since it started and watch them meet every schedule and plan. I also watched Space X another Elon Musk adventure that paid off already. And am watching his joint venture with Paul Allen of MS fame, and Burt Rutan. Here is an article with a terrific 3 minute video you can click on showing what they are doing about the again innovative way to do something better and cheaper:

 

http://www.laobserve...n_joined_by.php

 

Paul Allen is notable for investing for fun but no profit several billion dollars, but Musk and Rutan are not. Quite the opposite Musk's SpaceX delivered and is in the black, as did his Pay Pal before that which he sold with his partner, and his Tesla, about to go in the black and currently in production for their initial high end Sportster model which contract is about to end and their own factory begin production of the new much cheaper Luxury Model S sedan, and begin deliveries six and a half months from now. In other words that newest joint venture funded by Allen, with Rutan designing the plane, and using a custom developed Falcon rocket from Musk's Space X company may be the next big thing.

I am sold on Tesla and Space X, but remain to be convinced about this new venture until the first test launch. But like with Tesla before it, I will certainly be watching closely.

 

Just my thoughts.

Edited by RV

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On has to define "still in" to some degree. I don't think that many of us have yet withdrawn to the point of keeping the money in cash in a box somewhere, but most probably are somewhere between fully invested and completely out. I have never been one to buy into gold and precious metals, but about a year ago we did take out a pretty significant chunk and move it from investments into real property. To us it seemed a good time for the move with real estate markets off and investments of most any kind not showing much growth. In the months since, our remaining funds have shown growth over all. We are a lot more conservative in our investments today, but we are by no means ready to take the "shoebox" approach. :)

Edited by Kirk

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Sounds like a good investment Kirk. I have funds and other investments that do not need to be managed but need watching. I had way too much cash in a USAA savings account that was a performance money market account for liquid capital to run my businesses and pay my outside sales guys and my personal assistant. Until mid 2008 it had a yield with the amount I had in it of 3.75-4.25% Then suddenly it was and still is way under 1 %. Before I made my investment in Tesla when it IPO'd last year having money in savings was like having it in a shoe box. I called the bank up last August and asked them how much I was making per $10k actual interest per year and was told that for each $10k I would earn $108.00 a year. I took more than a few blocks of that amount and decided if I made 5 or 8% it would be fantastic. If I sold today when it is down a bit, I would make about 20% profit per $10k invested. Two weeks ago it would have been more like 55% profit in less than 18 months for my first block, and 5 months for my second block. I did my property cash too and paid off a small loan two years after I bought it. We got it as a repo for pennies on the dollar in a very nice area for here. Good property that is resellable or rentable in a pinch at the right price can't be beat. I am scraping together one more Tesla buy if the price comes down or sit pat "long" as I am if it doesn't drop to my price. It beats a shoe box or a bank. Making $2k-5500 per 10k invested beats $108.00 a year any day. It also may go higher, much higher. I also had to put my SH's money from her contracting company and her last house she flipped which was a lakeside one that we kept the mineral rights on and collect quite a bit per month into property. She got out of that for top dollar a month before the initial crash. If you have funds you are still in. We are looking for a rental property now too with prices down now. That was a good move.

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I have been out since July of 11. Have done nothing but watch and work on my other projects and work for now. Previously had been in the market since 1995. Been up, down and all around since then.....:huh:

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here's why and what i'm doing. First the long history, which i won't type out here except as an outline.

 

Pre ww2 history of the FED / Depression / FDR social programs etc are the groundwork one needs to understand as a basis.

 

The US was the only industrial nation to exit the war years with a manufacturing base intact.

The US rebuilt the western world post ww2 and we boomed because of it.

By the 60's the world was rebuilt and the US started turning to a rust belt

Thru the 60's we went from a creditor nation to a debtor nation (oil imports/Japanize transistor radios etc...)

We had most of the worlds gold by the early 60's. Gold is the only real money humans know. All foreigners paid us in gold to rebuild after ww2

as we switched from an exporter of industrial/consumer goods to an importer gold started leaving our shores at an excelerating rate.

 

in 1971 Nixon pulled the gold standard. This made dollars non-money and dollars could be created from thin air alone.

Foreigners were livid and the world rebalanced by going thru a decade of hyper-inflation as dollars and credit expanded fast.

Women remember throwing off their bras and going to work. Not from liberation though... but because the family could no longer survive on one bread winners income.

 

Aah Gold, we should all mis it more then we do. We've been lulled into a false sense of security by our "reserve curency"

 

In the 70's places like Sears et el. couldn't sell enough stuff to poorer americans to stay in biz, So they started financing our purchases so they could move inventory.

Enter the age of easy credit. Consumer credit, and then credit cards, and then credit for everyone!

As Americans tried to maintain their "standard of living" Debt started to grow.

 

Remember when debt was a bad word? No longer, by the 80's debt was a braging point. (I think that is changing back now)

 

Debt required financiers. Who collected interest. And started to get rich and then powerful (politically)

A massive transfer of wealth was underway (and continues today) Most people are treading water at about the economic level of the 1970's

As personal debt grows and people get trapped in consumerism to validate their status. Values changed.

Thru the 90's and 00's a wild consumer frenzy developed and debt climbed way beyond manageable levels.

 

Now we're in a world dominated not by productive labor and wealth building (like we have had for the last few thousand years or more) but by...

The FIRE economy. Finance, Insurance, Real Estate. All non-productive paper pushing.

As the FED lowered interest rates to near zero (to allow the government to keep making interest payments on it's balooning debts)

People found an "easy" money path thru refinancing and pulling "equity" out of housing

 

Now that that bubble has popped and global debt stands at levels that can never be repaid (we over shot manageable debt levels long ago)

The status quo is trying (and succeeding wildly) at shifting the elites (private/personal) loses onto the public tax payers.

The Idea is that more debt will solve the problem of too much debt.

 

Figures vary widely (cause no one wants anyone to really know) but today debt is thousands of fold greater then assets

The system has become so intertwined that the EU or anyone else cannot unravel their systems less they destroy the global scheme.

An extreme misallocation of capital has occured due to gov't statistics being skewed so bad as to send false signals to the market (the gov't doesn't want you to look)

 

You can find this pattern in history at least as far back as Rome. The pattern describes the end of a currency. No biggie... well... maybe a biggie...

Never before has currency died globally at the same time.

 

The industrial world was built on and demands CHEAP energy. Which is over.

America has had it's economy hollowed out as much of it was packed up and shipped overseas for cheap labor and higher profits.

 

The scale of the problem is such that for every penny (1 cent) of real wealth in the world there is nearly $1000 dollars of debt piled on top of it.

When the music stops who is going to get a chair?

 

Every asset everyone has (thinks they have) is really someone elses liability.

So ask. Who is going to get paid back in the end?

 

I own nothing anymore that is in the system. Just too much risk of total loss.

 

This is my conclusion and not advice in any way. Your mileage may vary.

 

Good luck to us all!

 

 

 

 

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P.s. Money (fiat paper anyway) is flooding into the US because we are the cleanest dirty shirt in the hamper. not because there is any hope of the US doing better then the EU or emerging markets.

But it's not money, it's liabilities

CNBC or bloomberg will howl from the roof tops about all the corporate "cash" on the sidelines. But if you look it's not cash. it's greek, italian. US bonds and other paper.

 

The world is melting down and no one wants to look at it and see it for what it is.

 

Historically about 5% of a population understands what is unfolding in times like these. I hope to be among them.

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Guest cindona

Hi Mark and Diane,

 

Well said. . You are right when you say that sadly only about 5% of the population see what is unfolding, historically speaking. Realistically, too, I am afraid.

It isn't that we are chicken littles, or doom and gloom, it really is quite simply math, and the numbers don't lie.

 

Thank you for your great insight!

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I agree, very well said. So for those wanting to liquidate what do people who can see what is happening clearly do with their non-real assets? Mid to late 2012 that is.

Edited by RV

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Hi Mark and Diane,

 

Well said. . You are right when you say that sadly only about 5% of the population see what is unfolding, historically speaking. Realistically, too, I am afraid.

It isn't that we are chicken littles, or doom and gloom, it really is quite simply math, and the numbers don't lie.

 

Thank you for your great insight!

 

No cindona, Thank You! it makes my day when I run into another awake aware person. They are few and far between.

 

What to do with money today. Small local banks, credit unions, matress, real wealth... i.e. tools, productive equipment, farm land. there is a good long list of what one might want to own going into this.

 

Anything that is "held" for you by a third party is likely toast when push comes to shove. Just ask MF Global "clients"

 

The problem I think many have coming to grips with the numbers and what elites and gov'ts (pawns of the elite at this point) are doing is that it can't be reconciled with human normalcy bias.

 

RV. The issue boils down to this (at least for me) slowly at first some of us will start switching from the corporate financial system to the small business local community. A movement that has already been building for 4-5 years now. as more and more individuals decide to "protect" something (just in case) others will follow. at some point gov't will clamp down hard on this exodus from the status quo and cause a run on the bank. if you find yourself in that line, its too late. It's an issue of a day late is too late.

 

Also no one can know when it triggers. gov't and the talking heads will insist all is well and getting better right up to the moment they call a bank holiday.

 

Banks paying zero interest should be a sign to all. vendors financing your purchases at zero interest should be a sign to all. gov'ts putting in capitol controls should be ringing alarm bells all over.

 

The "system" will pretend all is well right up to the cliff and even in the Wiley E. Cayote cartoon phase of running in air, just before he looks down...

 

2012 will be one "interesting" year

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The only "real" investments I have currently are:

 

1. My business and it's physical assets, equipment, inventory, website, etc.

2. Income producing apartment complex (4 plex)

3. Income producing commercial lease on grocery store in rural area in NM. (I own the property, store, equipment, and store manager "leases" the store from me)

 

Of course I have some depreciating assets (Truck, RV, Tools (lots of them, couple classic cars)

 

Any liquid cash is sitting on the sidelines in a MMA via Etrade.

 

I think the idea of holding productive assets is a good thing. In the economy to come, things that can produce goods and services will be of value.

 

The idea of re-localizing the economy is interesting, and we've already seen that begin to some degree. (Detroit and the supermarkets comes to mind). I wonder how well that will work long term since it's more of a protectionist type of move vs expansionist. When a debt fueled expansionist economy fails, and the "Velocity of Money" as I call it, stops, it will be interesting to see who is holding the chips when the collapse comes.

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I am only doing the stock short term for me as in for the next six months to a year. I have five acres semi rural with another 8 acres of family farm area land where we already raise a lot of our vegetable by choice not budget. I am almost to the point of building a new house cash but that again will have to wait for at least the next 10 months. We appear and do live very modestly. We chose long ago not to participate in the show and tell of having everything new and make payments. We are ex LEOs both my wife and me, and our family are all experienced in raising animals and crops, and have a small herd of goats right at the moment not any calves as they only last until the fall. We could expand the small truck garden to four acres in no time as we have tractors and all it takes. All of my real property is paid for, as well as all my vehicles and tools and workshops. Our funds are USAA but I had to do something with my cash on hand after I retired again a couple of years ago. We keep just enough weapons and plenty of ammo just in case. We are set back from the road about 300 feet or more, and cannot be approached from the front or the back without knowing. We are about as off the corporate economy as anybody could be, and still have an address and Internet connection.

 

But as you say some will protect those assets early and cause a run. For what? Paper? Another thing many don't seem to realize. Gold is not worth more or less as it has still more or less maintained its standard. Theoretically an ounce of gold will still buy the same goods it did years ago. Gold is not going up or down, the dollar is. That can be nit picked but is essentially true and something most are really not able to wrap their minds around. It took me a long time to learn that what most people call the good times are exactly what you describe, consumption with no understanding that debt always comes due, and all it takes is one domino to fall and everybody can find themselves in the same boat with no paddles. If that happens in my lifetime, I can only hope that what gets built next will take a lesson from the past. Because build we will.

 

If you are looking for a discussion on the fall of our economy specifically or civilization in general, you won't get it from me. I made it clear that I was no expert, and then answered questions about my one and only venture into the world of wall street. ;) I have seen predictions like these before, and recessions that hurt but nothing like this in my lifetime. Whether things are going that way or not is immaterial to me. We will make it one way or another, and I don't have the power to make or keep things from going either way.

Edited by RV

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