Are Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries easily damaged?

[GimmyTree]

I was just about to buy the battery below for my 160 watt solar panel but there is a lot of different guidelines and warnings on the battery:

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/caravan...ed0d07-003

My questions are; Are Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries easily damaged compared to lead acid batteries?

Is a newbie like myself better off with a lead acid battery?

[Al F]

4 hours ago, GimmyTree said:

I was just about to buy the battery below for my 160 watt solar panel but there is a lot of different guidelines and warnings on the battery:

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/caravan...ed0d07-003

My questions are; Are Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries easily damaged compared to lead acid batteries?

Is a newbie like myself better off with a lead acid battery?

As an Escapee member you can buy the lithium batteries from a company in the USA, rather than New Zealand.  Should be lower shipping costs as well as lower price. 

Quote

Battle Born Batteries

 

Now available for all Escapees members- special pricing on Battle Born lithium batteries! You can now purchase their 100Ah 12V deep cycle (non-GC2) batteries for an exclusive price of $874 per battery, plus a 15% discount on accessories (after purchase of battery, excludes cable and micro air soft starts). Members also have the ability to upfit their club discounted batteries free-of-charge within the first four years of their purchase with the latest upgrades at Battle Born HQ in Reno, NV.

Please note, this pricing is only available on products purchased directly from Battle Born Batteries and is not valid with any of their retailers or resellers. Visit their website at https://battlebornbatteries.com/, select the items you’d like, then give them a call at 855-292-2831 to place your order at the special rate. Have your SKP# handy!

Visit Website

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Al F

[Al F]

Also at Battle Born they have a FAQ page:  https://battlebornbatteries.com/faq/  that should have some answers to your questions about lithium batteries.

Yes, there are some restrictions and warnings about using lithium.  

The Battle Born and most others have a build in BMS (Battery Management System) to cut off the batteries from your RV system if you try to over charge them or over discharge them, or charge then when the temperature "inside" the battery is below freezing.  Note, the freezing temps are not what the temperature is out side your RV, but what the temperature is internally in the battery.  You can use them to power your RV (i.e. discharge the battery) down to below zero degrees.  

The chemistry in the lithium batteries we use in RV's is very safe, especially when paired with the BMS.  This is unlike the lithium batteries which were in the Boeing airplane that was in the news a couple of years ago and the batteries in some consumer products that have caught fire. 

One BIG caution.  You really should have a battery charger and solar controller which are programmable so you can adjust the charging voltage to what Battle Born recommends.  I think that is to not supply a charging voltage above about 14.3 volts to 14.4 volts.   Many chargers/controllers will supply 14.6-14.8V which is exactly what lead acid batteries require.  

Here is a link to Battle Born's website about charging parameters:  https://battlebornbatteries.com/charging-parameters-chargers-recommend/

 

 

[GimmyTree]

4 hours ago, Al F said:

As an Escapee member you can buy the lithium batteries from a company in the USA, rather than New Zealand.  Should be lower shipping costs as well as lower price. 

 

It is actually more expensive.  The battery I plan to buy costs $949NZD ($640USD). 

Shipping a lithium battery within NZ only costs $4USD and shipping lithium batteries internationally is not allowed anyway unless the battery is already installed in the equipment it operates.  

Edited July 18, 2019 by GimmyTree

[GimmyTree]

3 hours ago, Al F said:

Also at Battle Born they have a FAQ page:  https://battlebornbatteries.com/faq/  that should have some answers to your questions about lithium batteries.

Yes, there are some restrictions and warnings about using lithium.  

The Battle Born and most others have a build in BMS (Battery Management System) to cut off the batteries from your RV system if you try to over charge them or over discharge them, or charge then when the temperature "inside" the battery is below freezing.  Note, the freezing temps are not what the temperature is out side your RV, but what the temperature is internally in the battery.  You can use them to power your RV (i.e. discharge the battery) down to below zero degrees.  

The chemistry in the lithium batteries we use in RV's is very safe, especially when paired with the BMS.  This is unlike the lithium batteries which were in the Boeing airplane that was in the news a couple of years ago and the batteries in some consumer products that have caught fire. 

One BIG caution.  You really should have a battery charger and solar controller which are programmable so you can adjust the charging voltage to what Battle Born recommends.  I think that is to not supply a charging voltage above about 14.3 volts to 14.4 volts.   Many chargers/controllers will supply 14.6-14.8V which is exactly what lead acid batteries require.  

Here is a link to Battle Born's website about charging parameters:  https://battlebornbatteries.com/charging-parameters-chargers-recommend/

 

 

Thanks for the links, I'm going to have a good read up after work.

[hemsteadc]

11 hours ago, GimmyTree said:

My questions are; Are Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries easily damaged compared to lead acid batteries?
 

No.  I've mistakenly run mine down to almost 0% SOC and it recovered just fine.  As of this writing, you're not supposed to charge them in freezing temps, but the BMS should disallow that anyway.  I'm running my air con with one right now!

You'll love it.  No watering, no corrosion,  no gassing, no hydrometers,  no 50% restrictions, light, and maybe never have to replace it.

Edited July 18, 2019 by hemsteadc

[DesertMiner]

2 hours ago, hemsteadc said:

You'll love it.  No watering, no corrosion,  no gassing, no hydrometers,  no 50% restrictions, light, and maybe never have to replace it.

Just bring a “fat wallet” they are a bit pricey!

[dewilso]

Wonder what they mean by "up fit" ?

 

[hemsteadc]

20 minutes ago, DesertMiner said:

Just bring a “fat wallet” they are a bit pricey!

That thought goes away pretty quickly.

[Al F]

2 hours ago, hemsteadc said:

No.  I've mistakenly run mine down to almost 0% SOC and it recovered just fine.  As of this writing, you're not supposed to charge them in freezing temps, but the BMS should disallow that anyway.  I'm running my air con with one right now!

You'll love it.  No watering, no corrosion,  no gassing, no hydrometers,  no 50% restrictions, light, and maybe never have to replace it.

I comment on the term "freezing temps", because that always gives the impression of "when the outside temperature is below 32 degrees F" and not the internal temp of the battery. 

Note that it is not "freezing temps, but the internal temperature of the battery that counts.  If you have them in a compartment that has just a bit of insulation and not exposed to outside temps they will stay above freezing for quite a while when outside temps are below freezing.  Lithium really lends itself to being installed inside the living area, which is where mine are.  In a non temp controlled compartment you can place a remote thermometer transmitter there and monitor the temp from inside the living area. 

Also you can use (discharge) the battery to down below zero degrees.  Not that I want to be in an RV at that temp. 

[hemsteadc]

That is correct, the battery temperature. Thanks. Takes some pretty darn cold temperature to actually get the battery that cold.

[GimmyTree]

13 hours ago, hemsteadc said:

No.  I've mistakenly run mine down to almost 0% SOC and it recovered just fine.  As of this writing, you're not supposed to charge them in freezing temps, but the BMS should disallow that anyway.  I'm running my air con with one right now!

You'll love it.  No watering, no corrosion,  no gassing, no hydrometers,  no 50% restrictions, light, and maybe never have to replace it.

Man that sounds good:)

[GimmyTree]

Thanks for the information guys.

Another thing is; even though my PWM controller is compatible with a Lithium battery, the battery in the OP link that I want to buy is only compatible with a LiFePO4 charge controller and my PWM controller doesn't specify what type of lithium battery it works with.

Do you think I should by a LiFePO4 charge controller like this?: https://www.amazon.com/Genasun-GV-10L-Controller-Lithium-Batteries/dp/B01N6AXQZH/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=sl1&tag=zk0c5-20&linkId=2a1ee7abd062307ea19a3cb9a8e644ce

[hemsteadc]

My recommendation is to adhere to the charging parameters of whatever you buy.

I have a pretty expensive Outback solar controller that I can program to charge just about anything.  Since Li's have no absorb, that got set to near 0.  I have a couple shore chargers (my system is 48v) that I sent back to the company to have reprogrammed for my Li's.   I  just had to pay the shipping.

Edited July 19, 2019 by hemsteadc

[Al F]

15 hours ago, GimmyTree said:

Thanks for the information guys.

Another thing is; even though my PWM controller is compatible with a Lithium battery, the battery in the OP link that I want to buy is only compatible with a LiFePO4 charge controller and my PWM controller doesn't specify what type of lithium battery it works with.

Do you think I should by a LiFePO4 charge controller like this?: https://www.amazon.com/Genasun-GV-10L-Controller-Lithium-Batteries/dp/B01N6AXQZH/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=sl1&tag=zk0c5-20&linkId=2a1ee7abd062307ea19a3cb9a8e644ce

Check the charge parameters for the battery you want to buy.  It should be: to have a charge voltage no higher than 14.2-14.4V and a float voltage of about 13.4-13.6V.    Unless they want to sell you a charger as well as selling the battery.  Of course if they are going to void their warranty if you don't buy their charger, you might want to find a different place to buy the battery. 

 BTW, it matters little what LiFePO4 battery you buy.  They all should have the above general charge voltage parameters.   Also be sure to have the equalize function turned off or set for no higher that 14.2-14.4V. 

Now if your PWM controller is not programmable to the voltage I gave above you should not use it for lithium.

A solar controller for lead acid should be default to 14.6V absorb charging and about 13.4-13.4 float. If you can't change that voltage it is not compatible with lithium. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Al F

[GimmyTree]

3 hours ago, Al F said:

Check the charge parameters for the battery you want to buy.  It should be: to have a charge voltage no higher than 14.2-14.4V and a float voltage of about 13.4-13.6V.    Unless they want to sell you a charger as well as selling the battery.  Of course if they are going to void their warranty if you don't buy their charger, you might want to find a different place to buy the battery. 

 BTW, it matters little what LiFePO4 battery you buy.  They all should have the above general charge voltage parameters.   Also be sure to have the equalize function turned off or set for no higher that 14.2-14.4V. 

Now if your PWM controller is not programmable to the voltage I gave above you should not use it for lithium.

A solar controller for lead acid should be default to 14.6V absorb charging and about 13.4-13.4 float. If you can't change that voltage it is not compatible with lithium. 

The battery I purchased has a charge voltage of 14.6

I think I'll look into buying a charge controller that is definitely for a LiFePO4 battery,  The PWM controller I currently own does have a lithium option but it doesn't specify LiFePO4.  So I'd have to gamble on it being compatible with LiFePO4 batteries, and I'm not willing to gamble.

Edited July 20, 2019 by GimmyTree

[Al F]

Speaking of gambling.  A charge voltage of 14.6V  (3.65V per cell) is at the very top end of the acceptable charge voltage for LFP chemistry batteries. 

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/bu_216_summary_table_of_lithium_based_batteries

Everything I have seen about lithium batteries state for best life you should avoid charging to 100%.  93% to 95% is best.  

Even the Lithium solar controller you referenced seems to be set for a charge voltage of 14.2V  

I know this get confusing as different sellers of lithium batteries state different things.  Just as in the battery you bought, the seller states the charge voltage to be 14.6V.   That is correct that the battery CAN be charged to that level.  Now SHOULD the LFP battery be charged to 14.6V (3.65V per cell).  You will have to decide that for yourself.  NOTE: I wrote "seller" and not "manufacturer".  A seller can tell you anything they want in order to sell you something.  A mfg will usually, or should, provide detailed info for proper use of a product. 

Above I gave a link to info at Battery University.   Poke around in that website and read the various pages about lithium and charging/discharging/higher temperature affect on battery life, etc.  

I find Battery University's website to be somewhat confusing, but IMO the info and advice is spot on for how to care for the batteries for long life. 

Keep in mind that LiFePO4 chemistry is the same no matter who mfg the battery.  Just as lead acid is the same no matter who make it.  That is all lead acid must be brought to 100% charge frequently or it looses capacity and there have been plenty of charts showing 50% loss in the number of life cycles if you discharge to 50% instead of only discharging 25% (75% full).   Lithium life cycles and safe usage is the same no matter who makes it. 

[GimmyTree]

On 7/21/2019 at 2:43 AM, Al F said:

Speaking of gambling.  A charge voltage of 14.6V  (3.65V per cell) is at the very top end of the acceptable charge voltage for LFP chemistry batteries. 

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/bu_216_summary_table_of_lithium_based_batteries

Everything I have seen about lithium batteries state for best life you should avoid charging to 100%.  93% to 95% is best.  

Even the Lithium solar controller you referenced seems to be set for a charge voltage of 14.2V  

I know this get confusing as different sellers of lithium batteries state different things.  Just as in the battery you bought, the seller states the charge voltage to be 14.6V.   That is correct that the battery CAN be charged to that level.  Now SHOULD the LFP battery be charged to 14.6V (3.65V per cell).  You will have to decide that for yourself.  NOTE: I wrote "seller" and not "manufacturer".  A seller can tell you anything they want in order to sell you something.  A mfg will usually, or should, provide detailed info for proper use of a product. 

Above I gave a link to info at Battery University.   Poke around in that website and read the various pages about lithium and charging/discharging/higher temperature affect on battery life, etc.  

I find Battery University's website to be somewhat confusing, but IMO the info and advice is spot on for how to care for the batteries for long life. 

Keep in mind that LiFePO4 chemistry is the same no matter who mfg the battery.  Just as lead acid is the same no matter who make it.  That is all lead acid must be brought to 100% charge frequently or it looses capacity and there have been plenty of charts showing 50% loss in the number of life cycles if you discharge to 50% instead of only discharging 25% (75% full).   Lithium life cycles and safe usage is the same no matter who makes it. 

There is a bit more to it than I thought.  Okay so I will make sure to charge it only to 14.2V, not it's full capacity.

I'll take a look through that site to get a bit more of an education on lith batts.  The last thing I need is to have my van catch fire because I did something wrong with the battery.

[Al F]

57 minutes ago, GimmyTree said:

There is a bit more to it than I thought.  Okay so I will make sure to charge it only to 14.2V, not it's full capacity.

I'll take a look through that site to get a bit more of an education on lith batts.  The last thing I need is to have my van catch fire because I did something wrong with the battery.

The LiFePO4 batteries WHEN they have a BMS are very safe.  The BMS will cut off the charging if any of the cell voltages get above a set limit, and the same when discharging.   Additionally when you set up your charging devices you program them to limit the upper voltage setting they won't over charge, unless the charging device fails, and then the BMS will protect the battery.