How do I hardwire the inverter to my breaker panel?

[DuneElliot]

It is a GFCI outlet in the garage that I am plugging the RV into. 20A circuit with 20A breaker but 15A outlets. Two GFCI outlets on each circuit...six in total. 

[oldjohnt]

Thanks Dune, unfortunately this may be hard to diagnose over the net and not much better if there lol. I think above there's a good step by step procedure and in a nut shell what you have to do is have every breaker OFF in the RV, plug up the cord to the house, one at a time flip RV breakers on and see which one trips the GFCI. Looks like you already have the hot water off and that's always a prime suspect. Things such as too long cords, some light fixtures like fluorescent, maybe a microwave oven, rooftop AC, 120 VAC compressor fridge if you had one,  and then branch circuits inside the RV which connect to its outdoor receptacles can be problematic. Its also possible a GFCI  just goes bad and trips too easy, its just hard to say what's your problem, but the MOST SERIOUS situation is if there's any sort of a "hot skin" condition and if that's the case the GFCI is doing its job so be thankful. I hope the home wiring is correct?? You have one of those plug in analyzers that looks for cross wired or open grounds or open neutrals etc  ??? Maybe plug the RV into a different GFCI and see what happens

Sorry I'm about run out lol but I suspect outdoor receptacles or the microwave perhaps??? assuming its NOT the fault of the homes GFCI and the RV has no other problems.

John T 

[DuneElliot]

It only trips when too much power is pulled through the circuit. Had RV plugged in to one GFCI receptacle for several hours without any issue, via a short 14gauge extension cord...outlets and GFCI outlets in the RV were on as was the fridge and microwave circuit.

All fine for several hours.

GFCI in the garage tripped when I plugged the vaccuum cleaner into the other GFCI outlet on the same circuit in the garage and then turned it on. Same thing happened with the microwave. I have read about motors and power surges through GFCI recetacles tripping them.

I know the water heater trips is so that stays off until i can get it fixed. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by DuneElliot

[oldjohnt]

18 minutes ago, DuneElliot said:

GFCI in the garage tripped when I plugged the vaccuum cleaner into the other GFCI outlet on the same circuit in the garage and then turned it on. Same thing happened with the microwave.

Gee Dune, PIECE OF CAKE just don't use the dern vacuum or microwave problem solved LOL 

John T  with tongue in cheek

[Kirk W]

3 hours ago, DuneElliot said:

It only trips when too much power is pulled through the circuit.

GFCI outlets are not designed to be current limiting but only trip on a differential current between supply and return legs of the circuit. If excess current is triggering the trip then for some reason you have a differential that is typically greater than 5 mA. I suggest that you might want to take some time and read Chasing "Ghost Trips" article from the makers of Fluke test equipment. While I would not panic at this point, I also would not ignore it. 

Quote

When a GFCI trips, there must be a reason. Instead of just resetting the GFCI, you also must investigate the cause of the trip.

 

Ground faults occur when electrical current finds an unintended path to ground. The usual ground-fault suspects include worn insulation, conductive dusts, water, or other “soft grounds.” Ground faults account for more than 80 % of equipment short circuits, and insulation deterioration on wires and cables cause 90 % of them. If a human becomes the unintended path, current as low as 75 mA can trigger ventricular fibrillation.

2

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Kirk Wood

[DuneElliot]

I have read that and all other articles I can find. I'll have it checked out with everything else....like I said, not tripping until a power surge. Many articles mentioned things like blow dryers, fridges, irons etc tripping GFCIs because they are so sensitive it just overloads them with such a high current draw so fast.

[oldjohnt]

Dune, I was kidding up above about the microwave and vacuum but actually (as you noted per the articles) a high current or sudden surge appliance,  especially inductive, can cause GFCI's to have fits lol. If you only have say one smooth steady amp going out to the load and having to return that's one thing, but a high surge inductive start up load may pass 20 amps momentarily which is a lot more to return and perhaps some/more current finds an alternate path ?????????? NO WARRANTY ON THAT ITS ONLY A THOUGHT.  Still as Kirk rightly noted a GFCI is NOT a current limiting device, it simply measures current out and return current to see if they are near equal, but if not its flowing in a fault path so she trips AS ITS DESIGNED TO DO.

John T

Edited August 9, 2017 by oldjohnt

[DuneElliot]

So here's the deal:

I plugged the RV into one of the garage GFCI outlets. No trip.

Turned Main breaker on. No trip

Turned outlet breaker on. No trip. Tested all outlets to see if anything tripped. No trip.

Turned GFCI outlet breaker on. No trip. Tested all outlets to see if anything trips. No trip.

Turned Fridge breaker on. No trip. Tested fridge circuit. No trip. Tested fridge on separate cord and outlet. No trip. Works fine.

Turned microwave breaker on. No trip. Tested microwave circuit. No trip. Tested microwave on separate cord and outlet. No trip. Works fine.

Didn't touch water heater breaker as I already know that's a problem.

Currently just have outlets and GFCI breakers flipped on with lamps, TV and Playstation 3 on while plugged in to garage GFCI outlet. Fridge is currently plugged in to another outlet in case we lose power.

Has been like this for 20 minutes. 

[oldjohnt]

Gee Dune that's sure a lot of NO TRIPS, how about the vacuum cleaner??? Id venture a guess if two of those high current draws were BOTH on at the same time then you may get her to trip????????? Heck you may have fixed it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If not it sounds like you know what you're doing to systematically isolate and find the offender...........

 

Continued good luck

John T

[pjstough]

I once had a problem with the GFCI tripping that I was plugged into, and the culprit was the charger/converter.  Once I turned off the breaker for it, plugging into a 15 amp GFCI outlet was not problem.

[Kirk W]

13 hours ago, DuneElliot said:

Has been like this for 20 minutes. 

It sounds like you have eliminated the main culprit. All electrical equipment has some level of leakage current which is the reason that the NEC does not require that every outlet for 120v power be GFI protected. In RV manufacturing the design tends to be doing required things by the cheapest means possible. As a result, it is not uncommon for all of the outlets in an RV to be GFI, even though not required. Some 50a RVs have two circuits with outlets, one GFI and the other not. GFI should be there for any outlets in the bathroom, kitchen, outside, or in places like the back of an RV refrigerator. If you string enough devices the downstream side of any GFI protection device you can reach a point where leakage current will exceed the design limit of 5 mA even though no single device in the string exceeds the safe limits. The more outlets that are strung below and protected by a single GFI device, the more probable it is that you will cause it to trip without any real safety issue. Under ideal circumstances, each GFI outlet would be wired independently and protect only that one supply, but because they cost more, it is far more typical to connect them to protect every outlet in that circuit, even though better ones have a place to connect the downstream circuit so that it will not pass through the GFI. 

The 5 mA limit is intended to be for each device our outlet and not for an entire circuit. You are probably experiencing the effects of using single outlet protection limits for a series of outlets. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Kirk Wood

[DuneElliot]

The GFCI receptacles (bathroom, kitchen, outside) are on a different circuit breaker and as such different circuit to the regular outlets.

I dont have the converter breaker on as I'm using very little 12v power and my solar is more than enough to keep the batteries at 99-100% at all times.

I'm going to do some more experimenting today. 

I did run the heater off my extension cord and GFCI yesterday and it was fine. Plugged it into a verified and tested outlet that hadn't tripped before, turned it on. No trip...for three minutes...then the GFCI tripped in the garage. 

Also on a separate occasion, had RV plugged into same GFCI receptacle as above...all good, nothing tripping. Plugged the vacuum cleaner into completely different GFCI outlet but ON SAME CIRCUIT using extension cord...tripped the GFCI the RV was plugged into (first in line on the circuit) and not the one the vacuum was plugged into. Checked vacuum on a different circuit, alone, no trip.

The experiments continue

Edited August 10, 2017 by DuneElliot

[Kirk W]

8 minutes ago, DuneElliot said:

I'm going to do some more experimenting today. 

Remember that the GFI you connect the shore power cord to is then experiencing all of the leakage currents in the entire RV, while those inside of the RV are only impacted by parts of it. The leakage is there even for your RV circuits that are not working if the related circuit breaker is closed. The leakage currents are cumulative and thus the reason that adding more to a GFI can cause it to trip even if none of the individual appliances or circuits it is supplying exceed safe limits.

[DuneElliot]

Yeah, I think that's what we determined before when my heater kept doing the same thing on a different property. Tripped after hours and while I was doing other things using power on the same circuit etc. 

I'm pretty sure everything is safe at this point but it never hurts to check.

[oldjohnt]

Yeppers, I agree 100%  Indeed the problem is a teeny tiny 0.001 amp leak here, another teeny tiny 0.001 amp leak there, and its only 6 of those before 6 milliamps flowing OUT the hot aren't being returned by the Neutral but elsewhere SO THE GFCI DOES ITS JOB AND TRIPS.

 Your systematic approach has done a good job, you may be as electrical safety minded as I am AND THATS SAYING SOMETHING LOL...........  As you say "it never hurts to check"

Congrats

John T

[Daveh]

Reading this old conversation. KirkW and oldjohnt, thank you for all you do. Always informative.