How do I hardwire the inverter to my breaker panel?

[DuneElliot]

GFCI outlets don't like my RV...I have tested every circuit and everything is fine, that's just the way it is.

However this derails my plan to just plug the RV straight into the inverter which has GFCI outlets.

So my new plan, and probably the better one is to hardwire the inverter directly to the breaker panel. The question is, how do I do this safely? 

I have a Zantrex 2000PSW inverter with two 3-prong plug-ins and no other way to connect wires except at for the batteries.

I really only need the outlets to have power off the inverter, but am okay with however it needs to be hooked up.

Can I use a standard extension cord to plug it in and then cut it down to the wires to hook it into the breaker panel?

Also how do I make sure that I don't screw something up when I have shore power? 

Step by step idiot guidelines would be helpful here...or a direct link to some of those. I did try Google but didn't have much initial success.

[pjstough]

I have a Xantrex 2000 watt pro watt inverter and this is what I use two of these to power two different circuits in my motorhome.

http://www.ceshowroom.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=CWR41094&click=2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1KTZhJ3G1QIVA4dpCh0izAwsEAYYBiABEgLnaPD_BwE

[oldjohnt]

Dune, excellent question to which there is more then one answer so I will try and list the alternatives cheapest and easiest to the more complex where warranted, and try my best to keep it short n sweet but anyone here will tell you THATS NOT MY STRONG SUIT LOL. For those who dislike my in depth comprehensive answers YOU DONT HAVE TO AND PLEASE DONT READ THIS !!!!

 

1) An easy AND NEC COMPLIANT way to feed your Inverters output to your entire RV distribution panel is simply plug the RV power cord direct into the inverter using the appropriate wiring and adapters. That is essentially a poor mans transfer switching arrangement as you're switching FROM the utility TO the Inverter configured as a Separately Derived Source with a Bonded Neutral and can NOT mix the utility and inverter together nor backfeed one another. Short sweet simple almost idiot proof transfer switch PROVIDED the Inverter has a Bonded Neutral which would be equivalent to the single point grounding arrangement in the RV parks distribution system.  OF COURSE you can ONLY use those RV receptacles and loads that the Inverter has the capacity to power NOT a rooftop AC etc. One would have to switch off high current use circuit breakers (or just dont use them)  when plugged into the Inverter. I owned many many 30 amp RV's that had the onboard generators output receptacle located right inside the cord storage box so while driving or dry camping I simply plugged it there then at an RV park I plugged instead to the RV parks power pedestal.......  

2) NOW if you get into hard wire backfeeding the RV panel  THINGS GET MORE EXPENSIVE AND COMPLICATED as you need a Transfer Switch such that the RV panel can ONLY be connected to one source of energy (Genny or Inverter or Utility) at a time and you CAN NOT backfeed one or the other. In a homes distribution panel the easiest and cheapest transfer switch method involves a simple slider lockout so if the breaker connected to the inverter is switched  ON   the Main breaker has to be OFF. In that arrangement you connect the inverter (cords and right plugs etc)  to a properly sized circuit breaker inside your panel so with the RV main breaker off the inverter back feeds your panel BUT AGAIN YOU CAN ONLY FEED CIRCUITS AND LOADS THE INVERTER IS CAPABLE OF POWERING and one would flip the high current breakers OFF.

 

YOU SIMPLY WIRE THE INVERTER (plugs and cords etc) TO A CIRCUIT BREAKER IN YOUR PANEL AND HAVE THE MAIN BREAKER OFF SO THE INVERTER IS ESSENTIALLY CONNECTED TO THOSE PANEL LOADS VIA CLOSED BREAKERS. Its easy to do PROVIDED the main breaker is OFF when the Inverter breaker is ON     THATS A MUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     

3) A full fledged Transfer Switch whose single OUTPUT feeds the RV panel but it switches between two Inputs, the Inverter OR the Utility. NOTE in this arrangement the number of poles the switch requires depends on if the Inverter is configured as a Separate Derived Source or not in which case you would need a Floating Neutral.

The type of Transfer Switch and how many poles and bonded or floating neutrals and separate derived source or not is beyond the scope of your question so ONLY if needed will I go into all that.

ONE EASY EASY METHOD is simply plug the RV power cord into the Inverter.

OOPS I ALMOST FORGOT  An even easier method would be to hard wire the Inverters output to a few choice located receptacles at strategic locations in the RV used to charge phones and laptops and a small TV etc.  etc.

NOTE a GFCI monitors the incoming hot current versus the outgoing neutral return and if more then as little as 5 or 6 milliamps (0.005 amps) difference exists that means its returned elsewhere unsafe so it trips 

You didn't ask so I wont bore you or the others with more GFCI theory but it doesn't take much moisture or dirt or humidity or wiring problems to cause nuisance tripping so you may wanna look at that and post back if you need more GFCI repair info. They may even be wired incorrectly and if its outside or feeds an outdoor outlet they can easily trip due to dirt or moisture.

Id consider EITHER wire the inverter to a few dedicated outlets in the RV orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr wire up an outlet in the RV power cord storage box fed from the inverter output receptacle via a cord so you can plug the RV's power cord there when dry camping or driving etc.

NOTE I'm talking most about 120 volt 30 amp systems, if you need 120/240 and 5o amp it gets more expensive

 

 Got it???????? Questions?????

 

John T Long retired and very NEC rusty electrical power distribution design engineer SO NO WARRANTY, do what the more current professionals and "experts" say. 

  

Edited August 8, 2017 by oldjohnt

[DuneElliot]

Thanks for the info...that's a lot to decipher and I'm not sure I have the brain power for it right now, during the evening after a couple of beers! :-D

I have previously posted a thread about the GFCI issues...I have never been able to isolate anything specific and have checked everything for issues. It happens on every GFCI outlet I try to use. I don't have any issues with other outlets...I just put it down to having too many circuits which is some of the information I got here on this forum before from several members. If I run into an RV electrician down the road I'll see if they can check it out in more depth.

[Kirk W]

If you are thinking of connecting the output of the inverter to part of the 120v system, most inverter owners do so via a sub-panel but part of the issue is what inverter you have as they are not all created equal.

 

[lenp]

Dune,

I would spend more time trying to find the source of the GFI tripping.  Friend once had a similar problem and we found a 120 VAC wire had a staple through it shorting the neutral and ground wire together.  The GFI didn't like that for some reason.  He actually fried an older Xantrex inverter before we found the problem.

We isolated it by:

1) removing ALL power from the RV

2) turn off ALL circuit breakers

3) using an ohmmeter to measure resistance between the neutral and ground lines of each circuit AND the input lines to the breaker box

We found the line going to the refrigerator had a direct short between ground and neutral.  He told me later he had been noticing a small "shock" whenever he touched any metal on the trailer.

This might not be your problem but worth checking.

Lenp

[oldjohnt]

9 hours ago, DuneElliot said:

Thanks for the info...that's a lot to decipher and I'm not sure I have the brain power for it right now, during the evening after a couple of beers! :-D

I have NO problem with those cold barley soda pops lol

Sorry for too much info, an engineer cant help himself, its in our DNA, so let me make it simpler for you.

EASY WAY use a 12/3 cord (like an extension cord) which plugs into the Inverters outlet and run the other end up to a surface or flush mounted regular 120 volt 15 amp household duplex receptacle located for cell phone and computer and small TV etc etc PIECE OF CAKE even after a couple cold ones lol   NOTE  You could even install a 120 volt 15 amp household outlet there in the RV fed by the Inverter that has a built in USB terminal !!!!!!!!!! Those are so handy since many small electronics use USB and its no harder to install then a regular outlet which you wire to your inverter with a plug and cord PIECE OF CAKE and Ive seen them at Lowes or Home Depot or Menards just a 120 volt 15 amp outlet in one half and a USB in the other ID GO THAT ROUTE..........

OTHER EASY WAY run that 12/3 cord from the inverter back to where the RV power cord is stored and install an outlet that matches the RV power cord plug.  If its a 30 amp RV you can easily buy the matching NEMA TT 30 outlet receptacle for mounting where you can plug the RV power cord into when driving or dry camping AGAIN YOU CANT POWER HEAVY CURRENT LOADS

NOTE if you wanna go the back feed the RV panel with proper lock out mechanisms orrrrrrrrrrrrr use a full blown transfer switch orrrrrrrrrrr any sort of a sub panel arrangement for the Inverter THATS MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE AND COMPLICATED then the two alternatives listed above.

I bet you can decipher this even after two beers lol

PS as I'm sure youre aware its possible to use a single initial first in the circuit GFCI receptacle and then off its LOAD side run wire to other downstream outlets and they also are GFCI protected and if any of them are say outside or where it may be damp or real dusty THOSE regular downstream outlets NOT the GFCI one are causing the nuisance trip !!! If the GFCI has wire on its LOAD side to other located outlets disconnect that first and see if the GFCI still trips????????? If not then look for dirt or moisture or mis wiring in the other downstream outlets fed off the GFCI LOAD side. Sure the first GFCI is wired right???????????

Best wishes n God Bless

John T   

[Yarome]

Sounds like you are WELL covered on the connection stint of things, but like Lenp, I would be a little concerned about your GFCI issue.

I'm not sayin it is, but the main concern there is that you might have a "hot skin" issue that I would try to "discount" before you proceed.

To test.. you'll need a non contact voltage detector. I you don't have one.. or know anyone who does... they can be had for $5-$10.

To stress... you NEED to resolve your GFCI issue. If you do anything additional or not.

Worse case.. I don't want to read a thread or see a link to a news report that our SKP DuneElliot was barefoot, stepped onto her 5er stairs and received an electrical shock that stopped her heart.

Point taken?

And as long as the barley pops are flowing... I gotta a dolla. 

[oldjohnt]

21 minutes ago, Yarome said:

Worse case.. I don't want to read a thread or see a link to a news report that our SKP DuneElliot was barefoot, stepped onto her 5er stairs and received an electrical shock that stopped her heart.

NOR DO I  I'm teased for being over cautious or over safe and over respecting electricity but that was my life's work so by golly I respect and fear it.............

Indeed it only takes something like 30 to 50 milliamps (0.030 to 0.050 amps) to mess up your ticker which is why a GFCI trips around ONLY 5 to 6 milliamps BUT THATS ALSO WHY THEY CAN NUISANCE TRIP especially in outdoor or damp or dusty or corrosive locations

I agree THEY NEED TO RESOLVE THE GFCI ISSUE and sometimes the units themselves just go bad ????????? That could be the problem ????

John T 

[trailertraveler]

1 hour ago, oldjohnt said:

...EASY WAY use a 12/3 cord (like an extension cord) which plugs into the Inverters outlet and run the other end up to a surface or flush mounted regular 120 volt 15 amp household duplex receptacle located for cell phone and computer and small TV etc etc PIECE OF CAKE even after a couple cold ones lol   NOTE  You could even install a 120 volt 15 amp household outlet there in the RV fed by the Inverter that has a built in USB terminal !!!!!!!!!!

This is basically the option I chose. Instead of running the extension cord directly to the outlet in the RV; I installed a Marinco 20 Amp inlet where there was an easy run to where the outlet(s) were to be located. I connect the inverter to the inlet with a 20 amp extension cord. This setup also gives me the option when on shore power that can support both a 30amp and 15/20amp hookup at the same time to use the outlet to power a second electric heater without worry about overloading the 30 amp main service. With this use in mind, I installed a 15 amp breaker between the inlet and the outlet.

[Kirk W]

8 hours ago, lenp said:

I would spend more time trying to find the source of the GFI tripping.

I agree with this comment. There are a couple of things which cross my mind that you may not have checked. My RV sources tell me that the most common cause of GFI problems in an RV is the electric element in the water heater, so if you have one and have not checked that, you may want to do so. They say that to be sure, lift the leads to it not just opening the power supply. Another thought which I recently got from my sources is that it might be something as simple as a reversed polarity issue in the RV. He suggests using a cheap polarity checker from most hardware stores and if the plug on the shore power cord has been replaced, check it first. 

I'll also take the risk of starting a technology war again with this thought.  Because GFCI devices trigger at current leakages above 5 milliamps they can cause a problem for RVers that have switching type Power Converters in their RV's. These switching type power converters usually have built in input RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) suppression filters to keep high-frequency energy off of incoming wiring. During normal operation of the power converter, these RFI filters will exceed 5 milliamps of current leakage causing GFCI Devices to trip.

If you have not done so previously, try connecting the RV to a GFI source with all of your 120v breakers off and then turn them on, one at a time. That should help to isolate the problem you have. 

[Kirk W]

11 hours ago, DuneElliot said:

I just put it down to having too many circuits which is some of the information I got here on this forum before from several members. If I run into an RV electrician down the road I'll see if they can check it out in more depth.

I think that you might find this book on RV electrical systems & trouble shooting them to be helpful. 

[DuneElliot]

Well here's the interestinsg thing. I just plugged directly into the inverter, no extension cord, and turned on the main, outlet, GFCI outlet and microwave breakers. The GFCI outlet on the inverter didn't trip and I have power. I've been running a TV, PS3 and lamps off the outlets for a while and no issues.

The fridge has been directly plugged into a GFCI outlet for over a week and hasn't tripped that.

I have a propane water heater that runs the the electric spark off the 12V/ battery system but apparently it also has a breaker...and that DOES trip the GFCI when flipped. I am now curious about this as I don't have an electric element in the water heater...propane only and the heater doesn't blow a fuse on 12V when switched on or lighting.

[Kirk W]

7 minutes ago, DuneElliot said:

I have a propane water heater that runs the the electric spark off the 12V/ battery system but apparently it also has a breaker...and that DOES trip the GFCI when flipped.

The water heater lighting will cause it to trip? Can you isolate your converter from the 120V system either by a circuit breaker or power plug? 

[oldjohnt]

37 minutes ago, DuneElliot said:

I have a propane water heater that runs the the electric spark off the 12V/ battery system but apparently it also has a breaker...and that DOES trip the GFCI when flipped. I am now curious about this as I don't have an electric element in the water heater...propane only and the heater doesn't blow a fuse on 12V when switched on or lighting.

Dune that's "very interesting" even if your water heater doesn't have a 120 VAC heating element installed it may be wired for that "option" since you state "it also has a breaker"

QUESTION does that breaker trip anytime you flip it on orrrrrrrrrrr ONLY when it lights does it trip???????????? 

QUESTION is there actually 120 VAC wiring connected to that water heater or only the 12 volts???

I wonder if that breaker that's tripping is due to the water heater orrrrrrrrrr theres another device or circuit or another receptacle that's causing the trip. If 120 VAC is indeed connected to the water heater disconnect and safely cap it off then see if that breaker still trips or not and if its anytime turned on or only upon lighting???? 

 

John T

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by oldjohnt

[DuneElliot]

No, not lighting it. It lights just fine.

Just did some experimenting. The whole camper used to trip a GFCI just by turning on the main breaker...that was the old issue which we determined was cbaused by too long of an old extension cord. Finding a closer plug I manged to plug the 5W directly into the outet....no tripping, until I flip the breaker for the water heater. 

I did get to looking at the water heater, and hidden at the bottom behind a whole bunch of wires and pipes is a little black rectangle that doesn't look like a heating element or anything important that mentions about not dry-firing an electric heating element...so, without knowing for sure, I may have an electric heating element in there I didnt know about which is causing the GFCI tripping problem.

Everything else is running now when directly plugged in to a different outlet with a newer, shorter extension cord.

I will have the shop that is fixing my jack next month check the water heater and fix what is necessary.

[oldjohnt]

4 minutes ago, DuneElliot said:

that mentions about not dry-firing an electric heating element...so, without knowing for sure, I may have an electric heating element in there I didnt know about which is causing the GFCI tripping problem.

AHHHHHHHHH HAHHHHHHHHHHHH thanks for the new info I found AFTER my post above.

Its not good to use an electric heating element with no water in the tank WELL DUH

I'm back to my post above now. I would disconnect and safely remove and cap off the 120 VAC to the hot water heater and then see if the GFCI still trips ?????????? If not it must be caused by a bad (electrical leaking) heating element. If unhooked the GFCI doesnt trip and you don't ever plan to run the heater on 120 volts just eliminate the 120 volt problem and run on LP gas. Minerals and calcium etc can cause enough current leakage (ONLY 5 to 6 milliamps) in an elec water heater to trip a GFC|

John T 

 

John T 

[DuneElliot]

It has water in it...I discovered how that issue works when I first bought the 5W and didn't know about the bypass valve...had me stumped for a while. Propane heat won't stay on either without water in the tank.

I'll go pull the cover off and see what is there

[DuneElliot]

Okay, I can't get to the cover...can remove two screws but not the third. I found that if I turn the "On/Off" switch to off and then flip the breaker thr GFCI doesn't trip. I thought that switch was to supply power to the propane ignition but I tried turning the heater on with propane with that switch off and it still lights. So it looks like I DO have an electric element in there also. I learned something new about my RV today.

I will have them fix this when it goes into the shop in September. 

Also, now I know the source of this issue I can wire my inverter the way I planned...from plug outlet on inverter straight to the shore power plug.

[Kirk W]

48 minutes ago, DuneElliot said:

So it looks like I DO have an electric element in there also. I learned something new about my RV today.

 

It certainly does sound like you do and that could very well be your GFI problem. If there is a 120V circuit breaker for the water heater that would also point to an electric element since the water heater controls are all 12V~DC power from the batteries or converter and would be fused, not a circuit breaker. 

[DuneElliot]

I agree. It doesn't trip the GFCI until I turn what I now assume to be the heater element switch "On". If that switch is "Off" and I flip the WH breaker it doesn't trip the GFCI.

[oldjohnt]

3 hours ago, DuneElliot said:

I agree. It doesn't trip the GFCI until I turn what I now assume to be the heater element switch "On". If that switch is "Off" and I flip the WH breaker it doesn't trip the GFCI.

Dune, CONGRATULATIONS you done good. What you say complies with my suspicions noted above that if the electric heating element was essentially OUT OF THE CIRCUIT by unhooking it as I suggested (I didnt know it had that switch) or just turning it OFF as you did, and then all is well, THE GF LEAK MUST BE IN THE ELECTRIC HEATING ELEMENT which is certainly a possibility and can easily happen.

Its no surprise if 120 VAC power to the heater was OFF or if the 120 volt switch on the heater is OFF it still works on propane because 1) You need it to work when dry camping with no shore power and 2) The LP Gas system operates on 12 volts DC with no 120 VAC required.  

Best wishes its good to get feedback

 

John T

Edited August 8, 2017 by oldjohnt

[trailertraveler]

8 hours ago, DuneElliot said:

...I can wire my inverter the way I planned...from plug outlet on inverter straight to the shore power plug...

You may already know this, but make sure you turn off the breaker for the converter/charger. If you don't, the converter/charger will be pulling power from the battery through the inverter and converting it back to 12 volts and attempting to charge the battery. This process is not 100% efficient so the converter charger will be drawing more power from battery than it returns. 

[DuneElliot]

Thanks. Yes, I am aware of the converter issue. I actually had to re-wire a couple of breakers because my outlets had been wired into the same breaker as the converter. It was an easy fix thankfully.

I'm currently having some nuisance tripping of the GFCI now...hours after I've plugged in when I use any high-power-draw equipment like the microwave or vaccuum cleaner or the fridge kicks on. I'm guessing the outlet I'm plugged into is 15A. The vaccuum tripped it when plugged into a diffterent outlet in the garage but on the same circuit.

Edited August 9, 2017 by DuneElliot

[oldjohnt]

Dune, forgive me but I'm just unsure which and where that tripping GFCI is located?? Is it one in your home or garage you're plugging the RV into orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr a GFCI breaker in the homes panel orrrrrrrrrrr is it one in the RV itself ???

John T