Hybrid Inverters instead of Autoformers?

[Smitty77_7]

I'm asking this, due to a recent thread on an Escapee Park restriction on the usage of Autoformers.

 

Do not some of the newer Inverters, allow the mix of Battery Bank power with Shore Power?

 

We installed the Magnum MS2812 Charger/Inverter in our coach, when we added out bigger battery bank and solar panels. As luck would have it, Magnum MSH (Hybrid) came out after we purchase the MS2812.

 

"Why is the MSH-M Series a “Hybrid”? Most inverters only use one source of energy to power the inverter loads—either from the incoming AC power (i.e., shorepower or generator) or from the batteries. The MSH-M Series combines the energy from both the AC input and the batteries to power the inverter loads. This feature gives the inverter the ability to recharge the battery when there is surplus power, or to deliver more power to the loads if they require more than the AC input can supply by itself."

 

​If I were doing this today. Could I use the Magnum MSH series inverter, to basically do what the Hughes Autoformer is doing? And even better, especially when we're on a meter, I could use my battery bank to provide much of my power during the day, with our 1200W of Solar Panels doing the bulk of the recharge of the battery bank?

 

I suppose the downside of doing the battery bank usage, pretend 20% battery power and 80% shore power, is that the usage of that 20% of battery bank is dipping into the Life Cycles of the batteries themselves(?).

 

So, am I oversimplifying this? Coming to the wrong conclusions on the virtues of the MSH series (Or any Hybrid series) inverter?

 

TIA for corrections of what my wife calls 'Fuzzy Smitty Thinking':)!

 

Best,

Smitty

[Yarome]

Do not some of the newer Inverters, allow the mix of Battery Bank power with Shore Power? Yes

 

Could I use the Magnum MSH series inverter, to basically do what the Hughes Autoformer is doing? The end result would be the same. With less "overhead" to boot.

 

I could use my battery bank to provide much of my power during the day, with our 1200W of Solar Panels doing the bulk of the recharge of the battery bank? Absolutely. Free juice!

 

I suppose the downside of doing the battery bank usage, pretend 20% battery power and 80% shore power, is that the usage of that 20% of battery bank is dipping into the Life Cycles of the batteries themselves(?). Yes, but very minimally if you aren't dropping below 80% SOC. They DO like to be exercised as opposed to floating them over a week or two while parked. Under normal shore power conditions you really won't see that though because you'll likely not be at 100% utilization of your shore power. Any excess is getting dumped back into your batteries during intervals of reduced loads. The exception there would be when your 50amp rig is on 20 or 30amp service (or a single 2000watt genny) and you're trying to run your A/C all day. KWIM?

 

So, am I oversimplifying this? Coming to the wrong conclusions on the virtues of the MSH series (Or any Hybrid series) inverter? Nope. Seems you got a good handle on it. Fuzzy enough for ME!

 

There is just one point in the "official" magnum hybrid description that just drives me bonkers. Implying that your "inverter" is able to recharge your batteries when excess power is available. They're just being lazy referring to the entire unit as an inverter. When excess power is available the inverter will idle/standby while the charger uses the excess shore/genny power to recharge your batteries.

 

The way it currently reads.. when excess shore power is available, battery power will be used to power your inverter which will then recharge your batteries. Anyone see a problem there?

[Yarome]

Just an afterthought on using the battery bank/SOC's/lifecycles. In the example where over discharge might be an issue.. come to think of it.. if you only have 20 or 30 amp service.. you're not really running your A/C all day without your solar and batteries throwing in their 2-bits anyway. Cutting into a lifecycle becomes a moot point.

 

Over simplified example, but you get my drift. With full power hookups you'll likely have lull's in the load demand sufficient enough to keep your battery bank at a fairly high SOC.

[ekim]

Is an autoformer use to step up a low voltage situation?

 

If yes, the the hybrid inverter will likely not help. The hybrid inverter will allow the batteries to supply more current to your loads, but it won't "fix" a low voltage situation.

[Biker56]

How would they know if I was using a Autoformer or not?

I have one plugged in 24/7 and no one can see it inside my compartment.

 

Unless they are standing beside/near the compartment in the less then 2 minuets when I am hooking up to the shore power box.

 

Come to think about it. In over 50 years of staying in campgrounds I have never stayed at a Escapee Park.

So I don't need to worry about their restriction on the usage of Autoformers.

[Smitty77_7]

Is an autoformer use to step up a low voltage situation?

 

If yes, the the hybrid inverter will likely not help. The hybrid inverter will allow the batteries to supply more current to your loads, but it won't "fix" a low voltage situation.

 

 

Yes, the autoformer will bump/step up low voltage situations.

 

And my thinking on the hybrid inverter, is that it can augment for lower power quite a bit during he day time. (800AH battery bank, and 1200W of solar, so during the day, with good sunshine, I should be able to bump up the power from a low voltage power shore power, and then when the sun stops producing, I should still be close to 100% SOC. Then overnight, instead of 'boon docking' off of only the battery bank - the battery bank would only need to be tapped into to augment the lower shore power, so should use much less battery bank power overnight. (And no, I would not be running the AC at a time like this. (Well maybe on during the day with good sunshine Solar Power output... But not overnight.)

 

Best,

Smitty

[Smitty77_7]

Biker56 - I hear you, and as was posted in another thread by others, it's not like we're stealing power that we were not paying for (50/30 or 20A). That being said, I again do understand that if a park does not have enough power to support 100% demand by all sites - that restricting AC usage down to one AC at a time, and autoformers - so that they can maintain some power for all, is sure better then everyone losing power from overtaxing the parks systems.

 

In this case, it's an Escapees COOP - so the members have the right do manage their park (And their sites within that park.) how they wish... I'm a visitor, using someones site that is 'in the pool'.

 

So lots of angles on this one:)!

 

Best,

Smitty

[Kirk W]

I'm asking this, due to a recent thread on an Escapee Park restriction on the usage of Autoformers. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Do not some of the newer Inverters, allow the mix of Battery Bank power with Shore Power?

Even if you have one which will do that, it will not perform the function of an Autoformer or similar product. What it does is to boost the voltage out of it to a level that is higher than the voltage into it. An inverter could replace the low voltage with a better supply but there is no way that it can boost the supplied voltage to a level that is higher than what comes into the RV while still using it. The only device that I know of which can perform the voltage boost function is an auto-transformer which is what Autorformer and competitors use inside the box.

How would they know if I was using a Autoformer or not?

I have one plugged in 24/7 and no one can see it inside my compartment.

Since yours is inside of the RV, and they don't harm anything, nobody would know it was there, as was discussed in the earlier thread. But if you have one of those portable devices, then it is pretty obvious if they happen to look.

[Smitty77_7]

Yarome - Thanks for checking out my Smitty Fuzzy Thinking:)! Appreciated your taking the time to answer my various questions...

 

Best,

Smitty

[Kirk W]

In this case, it's an Escapees COOP - so the members have the right do manage their park (And their sites within that park.) how they wish... I'm a visitor, using someones site that is 'in the pool'.

Which co-op park are you in? I'm surprised at the low voltage as I've not experienced that in any that we have stayed in.

[Smitty77_7]

Hi Kirk - It's Timber Valley. Barb asked in the other thread about Autoformers, and provided the name and the info that it was in their rules when I checked in. And they also stipulated that when temps are over 95, to restrict AC usage to one unit at a time.

 

And sure a grey area here. Sure, I could remount my Hughes Autoformer and be in stealth mode. I did not think that it added to the overall parks 'power consumption'. While maybe minor, as it was explained in the other thread, it does consume some energy of it's own. So in a fragile park system, it could add to the strain...

 

Even when mine is installed out of sight, I have the ability to bypass the Hughes, and retain our EMS. In a park where they have requested they not be used, I'll honor this request. If I don't like the power I see via the EMS - I'll move on down the road:)!

 

Best to you, and all,

Smitty

[Yarome]

...Smitty Fuzzy Thinking:)!

 

Nah.. (can I steal " fuzzy logic" in boondocker terms? ) You're right on track and seem to have a solid grasp of RV power needs/systems.. current options. Show off...

 

Get you to change out your 2812 for a hybrid.. case example included!

[ekim]

 

 

Yes, the autoformer will bump/step up low voltage situations.

 

And my thinking on the hybrid inverter, is that it can augment for lower power quite a bit during he day time. (800AH battery bank, and 1200W of solar, so during the day, with good sunshine, I should be able to bump up the power from a low voltage power shore power, and then when the sun stops producing, I should still be close to 100% SOC. Then overnight, instead of 'boon docking' off of only the battery bank - the battery bank would only need to be tapped into to augment the lower shore power, so should use much less battery bank power overnight. (And no, I would not be running the AC at a time like this. (Well maybe on during the day with good sunshine Solar Power output... But not overnight.)

 

The Magnum Hybrid won't work in this situation. You would need to use it ***in addition to the autoformer***.

 

Let's say the pedestal voltage is 100 volts with a 30 amp breaker. At that low of a voltage, the magnum might not even accept the input voltage. If it did, the inverter would only add additional current. All your equipment would still see 100 volt power. You could "boost the current so your equipment can draw more than 30 amps, but you would still be at 100 volts.

 

The more likely situation is that the inverter will declare the power as "bad" and start inverting and ignore the shore power source all together.

 

If you were to use an autoformer you would be able to step the voltage back up to 120 volts. You would then have good voltage, but would pop the breaker at something less than 30 amps (20-25 amps?). In this case, you could use the magnum to augment the shore power current.

 

You would need to set the magnum to jump in at less than 30 amps.

 

I would also contact magnum to see if the response time of the inverter is fast enough to handle a load like the inrush of an A/C compressor starting up if I were going to try to use it this way.