oldjohnt

Howdy h4, Its hard to say not being there, but I tend to agree with Kirk if NOTHING works on ANY of the 3 way sources 120 Volts, LP Gas, 12 Volts (assuming all switches on fridge or its eyebrow panel are okay and on ??) my first suspect is NO 12 VOLTS is available. Start by checking the (typical) blade type fuses in your 12 VDC distribution panel then use a simple 12 Volt test light or a DC voltmeter to look for 12 volts in the bottom rear compartment where you took that picture. On some there's two wires into a plastic terminal block where the 12 VDC starts (from DC fuse panel) then wires to the control board. Do you have good 12 VDC in other parts of the RV ?? Is the fridge the ONLY 12 Volt appliance that's not working?? Im wondering about your house batteries All I have to offer for now based on limited information.. John T

Good questions Leanne, FWIW you asked so here is MY experience. YES, I've used EternaBond tape on curved surfaces, it didn't separate or peel away and adhered as well as on flats...... TIPS: THOROUGH Cleaning and Preparation is my advice (IE read the darn directions) .. I've used it and it sticks like permanently and for sure seals out any water. NOTE I am NOT any roof or Eterna Bond or any other RV sealant expert, see what any of them have to say.. I'm ONLY saying I have used it and other Dicor type (self leveling lap sealant) products (NOT silicone on RV roofs) and never had a problem. Best wishes John T Again NOT an expert

FWIW X2 and Amen, good explanation.. Way back when I upgraded from wet flooded lead acid to AGM so I didn't have to worry with adding water PLUS they charged a bit faster. Next in my journey I upgraded to LiFePo4 as they are much lighter, charge faster, you can discharge them deeper, and they don't experience as much voltage sag as their SOC decreases. HOWEVER a few years back YES they were more expensive (up front) but since prices have fallen and there are a ton of good quality manufacturers. They also require a charger or solar charge controller suitable for Lithium which is another expense if you upgrade. Bottom line if upgrading from wet flooded lead acid,,,,,,,,,,,,, you boondock often,,,,,,,,,, are an at least moderate energy user,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,plan to use the rig some years,,,,,,,,, your budget allows,,,,,,,,,, YES LITHIUM IS ANOTHER OPTION but it depends on a persons needs, RV lifestyle and budget NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER John T I liked my AGM's but overall I like my Lithiums better...

I sure agree Randy, in order to pump any significant charging amps INTO a battery the source voltage NEEDS TO BE HIGHER THAN BATTERY VOLTAGE and for a 12.8 Volt Lithium, that's MORE than 12.8 Volts....My DC to DC charger (via its internal electronic circuitry) delivers 14.4 volts (what my battery calls for charging) to my lithiums while NOT over taxing my engines alternator, again I do NOT recommend wiring lithiums direct to an alternator designed for charging lead acid BUT THATS JUST ME do whatever you like. Its been fun over 50 years of RVing to see technology improve as I went from Lead Acid,,,,,,,,to Deep Cycle Lead Acid,,,,,,,,to AGM (still lead acid technology, difference in electrolyte) then Lithium yayyyyyyyy Im NOT going back either lol AMEN, Dito and X2 to that D & J !!!!!!!!!!! I used AGM several years back, they performed great !!! John T

Freebirds, here's some more info for you to consider: Some (like mine) brands of 12.8 Volt Lithiums call for charging at 14.4 to 14.6 Volts, check to see what yours are ?????? If you only have 12.8 Volts back due to line voltage drop they may not achieve a good full quality charge. Thats a good thing about using a smart regulated Lithium suited DC to DC charger like mine. While NOT over taxing the alternator it electronically uses LIMITED raw alternator energy to charge the lithiums at their required 14.4/14.6 Volts. Regardless of line voltage drop (say only end up with 12.8 volts) or any built in alternator current limiting I DO NOT recommend wiring an alternators output direct to Lithium batteries, but instead use a DC to DC Lithium suitable charger that will provide a smart regulated charge at the recommended 14.4 to 14.6 volts OR WHATEVER YOUR BATTERY MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDS ??? But hey sure even at less than recommended voltage your alternator might still provide at least SOME DEGREE of charge to your lithiums, even if not perfect or recommended SO LONG AS THE ALTERNATOR DOESNT FRY because the lithiums drew too much current and the alternator lacked the necessary limiting to prevent such. To be safe I recommend you check the lithiums recommended charging parameters and the limitations of your alternator (or if its okay to connect direct to lithium ?) Best wishes CHECK WITH YOUR LITHIUM BATTERY MANUFACTURER and Alternator specs BEFORE deciding to use a DC to DC or wire direct. Hey a DC to DC isnt all that expensive but its YOUR money YOUR risk.. PS while I recommend use of a lithium suited DC to DC charger for the engines alternator to charge house lithium batteries, do whatever YOU like....... John T

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO don't try that you might fry the alternator !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Unlike lead acid, a Lithium Battery exposed to unregulated unlimited charging can draw huge current that may damage the alternator .......... A smart regulated DC to DC charger suitable for Lithium will limit current draw from the alternator yet still properly charge your lithiums and NOT fry the alternator. My alternator has worked fine that way to charge my lithiums when driving... If BOTH your engine and RV batteries were lead acid it can work but again DO NOT hook your alternator direct to Lithiums Based on what you say a 20 Amp or 40 Amp DC to DC charger if set for Lithium charging might get you by to charge lithium house batteries AND BE SURE TO USE ADEQUATE SIZED PROPERLY OVERCURRENT PROTECTED WIRE AND CONNECTORS from alternator to DC DC and to battery John T

Maybe there's a Serial, Make or Model number hidden somewhere on the alternator???? Maybe some of the trucks specs if you have any ?? Maybe communicate the VIN with the manufacturer or even somewhere on the internet ?? If it's a diesel ?? its probably a hefty rated alternator, at least 100 Amps probably more ?? A PURE GUESS not knowing your truck (gas or diesel?) or alternator I would think at least a 40 Amp to a 60 Amp DC to DC charger is THE BARE MINIMUM that may suit you, perhaps even larger if available and you have a diesel with a high capacity alternator. Ive seen some of the less expensive (Renogy) DC to DC that activate via the key switch or ignition etc soon as ON while other more expensive (maybe Victron) are programmable, and of course they need to have switches/settings/programs for Lithium. I have a 40 Amp Renogy manually activated feeding 412 AH of lithium for driving (Ford V10 Gas) on cloudy rainy days, but typically my rooftop solar satisfies all my needs. Think Amp Hours of energy you require and how many Amp Hours a DC to DC might supply ?? Say you drove 2 hours with a 60 Amp DC to DC charger, thats 120 Amp Hours IN THEORY subject to battery SOC and other factors. Not knowing your specs or needs Id think at least a 2000 Watt PSW Inverter may be a good choice, but if you needed to run some sort of an AC, then 3000 Sorry I can't GUESS more absent your specs and your energy requirements, so take this with a grain of salt NO WARRANTY See what the more experienced gents have to say John T

You get NO argument from me I HAVE SEPARATE UNITS MYSELF. However they were installed some time back one at a time as I was building my system and already had a quality Lithium rated charger BEFORE the combo units were as much in the spotlight. If I were starting all over Id consider a combo unit (space, weight and ease of wiring) but agree if it goes down I risk loosing BOTH charging and Inverting grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I could rely on my DC to DC and solar charging which typically suffices but the lack of an inverter could be a pain. Of course, to each what works best for THEIR RV, it's their money their choice but we can have fun spending their money lol Nice sparky chatting with you, hey I'm often contrary myself, ask my wife lol John T

The answer DEPENDS. First on your house battery capacity and charging requirements (how many charging amps for how long ?? Is it the ONLY means of charging house batteries with engine running ?? Any rooftop solar when driving to help ??) Second on the size of your alternator and how much you are willing to draw from it without risking over working it. Typical sizes may be 20, 40 or 60 Amps and its absolutely necessary your wiring, connectors and overcurrent protection be adequate and proper. Consult the manual. PS I don't like a control scheme that activates the DC to DC the instant the engine starts, I prefer to give the engine battery some time to recharge and stabilize BEFORE drawing say 30, 50, to 70 or more Amps from the engines alternator to charge the house batteries. If you need BOTH and aren't already partly equipped ?? it makes wiring easy. Lots of choices bells n whistles out there. A pass through hybrid sounds inviting with all sorts of choices limits and control schemes, it's fun spending your money lol John T

Good questions, I agree with Randy's excellent advice. Those two 6 volt are maybe 200 to 225 Amp Hours and being lead acid gives you maybe 50% or 100 USEABLE Amp Hours.. HOWEVER, Two 200 AH of Lithium which is 400 AH and 80% of that (what I shoot for like Randy) yields 320 USEABLE AH. In addition to their light weight and faster charging, I like how Lithium gives less voltage sag at decreased SOC versus lead acid. I have no idea if your current charger can be set/adjusted for best charging Lithium ??? If not I recommend a new Lithium suitable unit. Anything else I should be thinking about ? Charging ?? Of course Solar in addition to any new charger which requires a Solar Charge Controller and if needed consider a DC to DC charger so the engines alternator can help charging when driving, especially when there's no sunshine. BATTERIES; There are a bunch of players out there, more expensive as well as some cheaper alternatives, beware of Class B cell use, check out DIY Solar with Will Prowse on You Tube. Consider some of the SINGLE UNIT higher AH batteries (300 to 400 AH) to reduce all those extra connections and I like a BMS that offers low temp protection, some batteries even have internal heating if low temps are an issue. INVERTER: If you need a 12 VDC to 120 VAC Inverter and a new charger also, consider a COMBINATION INVERTER CHARGER to simplify wiring John T

Kirsten, There are several manufacturers of after market 12 VDC Computer/Muffin fans maybe 3 to 5 inches in diameter (some single others side by side doubles) owners install themselves which are reported to improve cooling efficiency that are NOT any part of the factory fridge. Some are thermostat controlled to switch off and on based on temperature (if so the T stat may have failed stuck ON),,,,,,,,,,Some are set to turn on anytime the fridge is operating,,,,,,,,Some have a small switch there in the rear near them. If turning off the fridge does NOT shut it off and its 12 VDC powered, I suspect its an after market fan which are inexpensive and easy to install, maybe a few screws even zip ties lol. Look for a small 12 VDC fan that appears added on and its wires including any small T Stat controller. Maybe the fan is okay and its simply a T Stat issue??? Look on the RV exterior side where the fridge access door is removed.. Ive even seen some mounted up top where the roof vent is located. Here are a few such fans, maybe single or double?? https://www.amazon.com/s?k=rv+fridge+cooling+fan&adgrpid=1341404748575002&hvadid=83837946459950&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=91631&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83838136621470%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=24633_13493391&tag=mh0b-20&ref=pd_sl_37eb0mihld_e John T

Sounds fine Glenn. That will keep the panel frames at pretty well the same potential as the RV frame/structure, ALSO it will essentially bond the panels to the RV power panels Equipment Ground Buss which at some place eventually connects to mother earth (ground rod etc), all of which should help reduce shock hazards !!!! I would consider the use of braided copper wire myself (although not necessary) such as that sometime used for battery grounding but doesnt have to be so large. Good job best wishes John T

GOOD PLAN...WHAT are you grounding to WHAT else ? John T

Glenn, as you know the voltage output of the panels exists across its + and - terminals and I doubt if you got between them if you merely touched the panel. However, the presence of water could contribute to certain electrical connections that somehow caused your being shocked ?? hard to say. Another possibility is static electricity accumulation in which case connection of the panels to the RV frame or earth (what you consider a ground wire ??) could discharge. Thats similar to when you slide out of a car seat and touch the metal door you get shocked but if there's contact during the slide its discharged. If you choose to bond the panel frames to the chassis that would prevent a voltage potential from one to the other. John T

Thanks Chad, I'm good as far as that, my max charge rate is 100 Amps and I don't anticipate over 75/85 amps max. I had seen multiple controllers used before and didn't anticipate problems, especially with my two matched controllers, but when Renogy Tech Support recommended NOT to do this I was concerned which prompted my post. However, as an attorney and engineer I understand why the corporate lawyers insist on such things in manuals with big caution warnings like CONSULT AND FOLLOW NEC GUIDELINES etc. etc. fills a page lol I'm good to go and felt better after todays experimenting John T

UPDATE I finally had a good bright day to pull the RV out into the sun to see what happens. With BOTH the 60 Amp Renogy hooked to 4 panels and the 20 Amp Renogy hooked to its own new separate panel (for necessary reasons) ALL TO THE SAME LITHIUM BATTERY BANK.......BOTH set at the same factory lithium charging voltage and parameters....... BOTH were pumping charging amps into the battery,,,,,Neither changed + or - of what charging amps they were contributing together versus if one or the other was shut off.............. NOTE it was Renogy Technical Support that told me doing that was NOT recommended... I can envision the case where if two controllers had different charging algorithms there could be conflict issues, none appear in my case.. For now Im leaving things as is, its not broke (for now) so Im NOT gonna fix it lol Thanks gang John T

Hey you Solar Equipment Experts and users, I have a question: I have a Renogy Rover 60 Amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller feeding my SOK 412 Amp Hour 12.8 Volt Lithium Battery Bank, has worked perfect two years using the Renogy FACTORY lithium charge parameter setting which charges around 14.4 Volts. I want to add a second Renogy Rover 20 Amp MPPT Charge Controller fed by another new panel ALSO SET at its same factory Lithium 14.4 Volt charge. QUESTION with the outputs of both controllers,,,, identical other than size,,,, each at same factory charge rate of 14.4 Volts,,, feeding the same battery bank,,, WORK OKAY AND EACH ADD CHARGING AMPS AND NOT FIGHT EACH OTHER ???? The reason I asked is I've seen 2 or even 3 charge controllers feeding a common battery bank and they worked TOGETHER and added charging amps, however I've been told by someone (supposed to know??) NOT to do this ????? I could series up panels, but my Renogy may not be capable of either the new total higher voltage or all the charging amps capacity my panels could deliver grrrrrrrr A new single bigger Volts and Current MPPT ??? PS I could bump up EACH controller to 14.6 charging voltage but that's NOT my issue/question, Im concerned if they will work TOGETHER add charging amps and not interfere with each other ??? Thanks yall John T

Mornin Vern, hey you know your fridge specs/requirements and this sparky stuff better than most and can size your Inverter I'm sure, but FWIW here are my thoughts (you already know this I'm sure). As you know (maybe FYI for any rookies) when a fridge compressor starts it can draw short term maybe 2 to 5 times its normal full load running current. While it depends on the Inverters design and specs and its ACTUAL (not hype) SHORT TERM SURGE RATING if a fridge required say 750 full load running Watts, a 1500 Continuous Watt Inverter would likely (NO warranty they differ in quality and surge ratings) allow it to start. THAT BEING SAID I also look at 1) The Sweet Spots in ratings/prices of common available Inverters and 2) Purposely oversize to allow for future expansion. To allow for any future expansion and ifffffffffffff it would allow YOUR fridge to start (I cant know from here) I don't envision buying a new inverter ANY LESS THAN a 1500 Watt (IF your fridge is 7.2 Amps, 864 Watts) for safety and expansion EVEN IF a 1000 Watt would get you by.. EVEN BETTER and provided you're NOT trying to power an AC, I would even consider a 2000 Watt PSW. Another consideration is the no load idle draw of different Inverters !! Finally, I had a Xantrex Inverter and it crapped out the first year grrrrrrrrrr Id look at Victron, Magnum or Renogy, say AT LEAST 1500 OR EVEN 2000 Watt (NO AC of course) to allow for expansion to run that fridge. John T As always its nice sparky chatting with you Vern

Yes, there's probably SOME chance, they can get pretty hot in bright sunlight, never say never, thermal expansion and contraction versus Delta T exists, but I can ONLY say I've never read warnings about what you asked...I worry more about HAIL, rocks walnuts or other falling objects.. Maybe some solar panel or materials expert (thats NOT me) has the answer or someone may google it, its above my pay grade lol John T

You're certainly welcome and THANK YOU ALSO. WOW you're really getting into and understanding this !!!!!!!! Here's even a bit more for you FYI: Obviously the Main 30 Amp Circuit Breaker in the RV Panel will limit the current flowing THROUGH that breaker causes by loads DOWNSTREAM AND AFTER IT to no more than 30 Amps DUH HOWEVER (1) It will NOT limit current flow in the RV power cord that occurs BEFORE AND AHEAD OF the panels main breaker caused perhaps by a short, a pinch, a run over sharp rocks, water immersion etc (that's the pedestal breakers job).. 30 Amp pedestal receptacles for 30 Amp RV power cords are protected with 30 NOT 50 Amp breakers in the pedestal ANOTHER DUH LOL HOWEVER (2) The 30 Amp Breaker in the RV parks power pedestal WILL LIMIT current in the cord (between pedestal and before panels main breaker) AND AFTER to no more than its 30 Amps rated ampacity so there's no melt down of the insulation. There's a reason why the RV park uses 30 Amp breakers for 30 Amp receptacles and 50 Amp for 50 Amp, otherwise if it were okay why not just use 50 amp breakers for 30 or 50 Amp RV's ????? BOTTOM LINE I think (MY PROFESSIONAL OPINION) that's why Mike suggests use of the 50M to 20F Dogbone Adapter with circuit breakers so the lower ampacity wire/plugs/cords have 20 Amp NOT 50 Amp overcurrent protection. If 50 Amps were to flow in say 15, 20 or even 30 amp wires THAT CAN MELT INSUALTION AND CREATE A LIFE SAFERY HAZARD WHICH IS BACK TO WHY I ASKED if your 50M to 30F Dogbone Adapter had overcurrent protection.. Hey if they make a 50 to 20 Dogbone WITH breakers maybe they make a 50 to 30 WITH breakers... SURE it will work fine if not and I'm NOT telling anyone what to use what risk to take,,,,,,,, that's THEIR decision. That being said I would err on the side of safety so IF ??? anyone made a 50 to 30 adapter with breakers (like the one Mike suggested) I for one would choose it. Again even if the risk of fire or life is minimal (LESS than driving down the road) its my opinion better be safe than sorry, but that's just me based on my life's work involving electrical safety and NEC instructions DO AS YALL PLEASE OF COURSE !!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks RV and Dutch (who correctly pointed out light gauge extension cord use is permissible) and everyone for a deep techy and FUN sparky chat, God Bless and protect yall and HAPPY 4TH OF JULY John T BSEE,JD

Thanks for the kind words RV, glad to help. Here's a Dogbone Adapter with over-current protection Mike Sokol recommends and his reasons why as a SAFER WAY as it plugs into 50 Amp Breaker protection but then in turn supplies smaller wire less current rated circuits. Hey no rancor here, Im glad to help NOT feud lol A safer 50-amp to 20-amp adapter - by Mike Sokol (substack.com) Again people should use what THEY choose even if its safer or less safe ITS THEIR BUSINESS not any of ours GO FOR WHATEVER YOU LIKE..I dont know if anyone makes a 50M to 30F Dogbone with 30 Amp Overcurrent protection similar to Mikes 50M to 20F with overcurrent protection ???????????? Happy Independence Day, God Bless America and everyone here John T BSEE,JD

Good afternoon Dutch, good examples of what we all (professional as well as lay) know. Sure NEC allows the use of the types of devices you mentioned, I have no problem and had some good NEC instructors back in the day like Mike Holt and Joe McPartland of EC & M..Hey if what you say wasn't safe I can guarantee you they (were on the board) would NOT have permitted it !!!!!!!!! I don't know if the 50 M to 30 F Dogbone Adapters RV uses have lower overcurrent protection which is why I asked him the question. I did find the 50M to 20F Dogbone Adapters Mike Sokol recommended as safer (they indeed have lower current breakers for the lower current outlets) here's the link, read what he has to say about it and his reasons... A safer 50-amp to 20-amp adapter - by Mike Sokol (substack.com) Of course, the 30 Amp Receptacles where we plug our 30 Amp RV's and their 30 Amp rated cords have 30 Amp Circuit Breakers, while the 50 Amp RV pedestals use 50 Amp Breakers for our 50 Amp rated cords WELL DUH.. Ive NEVER seen a 30 Amp Pedestal Receptacle that used a 50 Amp Breaker !!!! But hey they may exist ? I think my question to RV is good to at least ask, since our RV power cords may be in water on sharp rocks or barefoot kids may walk on which is why they should perhaps have the correct overcurrent protection so if more current flows than they are rated for (could melt insulation) the breaker will trip. 50 Amps long term in wire rated for ONLY 30 could be a problem WHICH IS WHY I ASKED RV THE QUESTION. Hey if they make 50M to F Dogbone adpaters that have additional lower current breakers like above, maybe his or other manufacturers offer one that has 30 Amp protection for the 30 Amp Power Cords ???? I DONT KNOW BUT NO HARM IN ASKING.. Of course I support anyones free choice to use whatever breakers or dogbone adapaters he pleases, its his choice NOT mine or anyone here. PS YES a dead short in a 30 Amp RV cord will pop a 50 Amp Thermal Magnetic breaker instantly, but a resistive short (pinches, cuts, rocks, run overs) that approaches 50 Amps may NOT trip a 50 Amp breaker, yet can damage/melt the insulation grrrrrrrrrrrrr One sees barefoot kids, bikes, rocks and water near RV power cords !!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Dutch, great question and fun technical discussion even if we bore others lol. As always, it's a pleasure to sparky chat with you. Heck pulling out on the road is more hazardous than what dogbones we use but after a lifes work involving electrical safety one cant help but to ask questions and be safety conscious, I don't consider that a bad thing........Use what anyone likes is my thinking even if it may be OVER safe, better safe than sorry.. I asked RV if he has one cuz if they do make them (50M to 30F with 30A Brkr) Id sure consider purchasing as they are safer for sure even if its low risk or minimal difference... Have a Happy 4th of July Dutch and everyone, God bless you and yours John T

1) Mornin RV, WOW love your info and good questions, I'm sorry if we may bore the others, but hey you asked so here goes lol Absent any hard core testing like Mike Sokol does, I can ONLY say/guess that receptacle looks better than the cheapest Seven Dollar Leviton 2) My question (does 50M to 30F dogbone adapter have 30 amps of overcurrent protection for the 30 amp load side) wasn't concerned as much with short term voltage spikes or surges VERSUS long term overcurrent protection for the only 30 Amp rated power cord. I have no idea if it does or not and not surprised you would off hand, just asking no more no less, I'm just curious lol.. Mike Sokol recently showed off (cant find it now) and suggested use of a 50M to lower current Dogbone Adapter (On Amazon I believe) that indeed has less current Circuit Breakers for protecting lower ampacity cords or other smaller loads SINCE THE PEDESTAL BREAKER IS A WHOPING 50 AMPS !!!!!!!!! YIKES you DO NOT want 20 or 30 Amp rated wiring connected to a 50 Amp Breaker !!! Thats NEC Overcurrent Protection 101 3) As I'm sure you ALREADY KNOW WELL a cheap Surge Protector is ONLY a surge protector while a full blown much more expensive EMS is a complete different electrical protection device that has many more features.. Your money your RV your risk your choice, I hesitate to list brand names.. The circuit breaker in the pedestal for the 50 amp outlet is 50 Amps DUH and the Main Circuit Breaker in your 30 Amp RV Panel is 30 Amp Another DUH to limit and protect current flow that's downstream AFTER the Panels Main Breaker. That Main Panel Breaker controls ONLY current flow THROUGH IT,, NOT whats upstream ahead of it between pedestal and RV panel via the 30 Amp rated power cord DUH My question concerns if the current in your 30 Amp rated Power Cord (which is exposed to outdoors, water, sharp rocks, run overs, and barefoot kids) AFTER 50 Amp Pedestal Breaker BEFORE the RV 30 Amp Main Breaker is limited and protected at 30 Amps ? There ya go RV hope this helps and sorry if it bores others. As always DO NOT take my word for it, I'm long retired n rusty as a power distribution design engineer but believe this remains true yet today. I just try my best to help Best wishes to all, be safe take care, HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY God Bless America John T BSEE,JD

RV, wow THANKS for all the great pictures links and info, great source for any newbies or non sparkies !!!!!!!! QUESTION for you ? Do you happen to know if that 50M to 30F Dogbone Adapter has any internal 30 Amp Overcurrent Protection, fuse, breaker or fusible wire link perhaps ?? John T BSEE,JD Retired yet ever curious power engineer

Thanks so much Kirk, and likewise I'm amazed by and appreciate your "expert" electrical advice as another fellow retiree. Glad to help anytime I can. WOW great pictures links and advice above THANKS TO EVERYONE Good sparky thread !!!!!!!!!!! Happy Independence Day everyone Be safe everyone, electricity can cause a fire or kill you dead !!!! Post back any questions John T, BSEE, JD Old Retired Power Distribution Engineer but still love the subject and helping out.