kstills

And if you would add any other thoughts it would be appreciated. 

What’s the advantage to a hauler bed? You seem to lose a lot of the pickup truck utility.

On 8/16/2020 at 10:41 PM, kb0zke said:

Welcome, Kevin. You are wise to start asking questions now. When we were at that stage it seemed that each answered question led to five or six more questions. I'd suggest that you focus your research a bit, so that you can do a couple of things at once.

First, get a particular type of RV out of your mind. Instead, get into every one you can, new or used, large or small, and evaluate it for livability (can you "take" a shower, can you"watch" television, can you "cook" a meal, can you "wash" the dishes, etc. This will tell you what floor plans will and won't work for you. While you are doing that, notice how well various brands hold up over the years. There are quite a few of us who are full-timing in coaches that are 25-30 years old, but most of us are in coaches that were at the high end of the scale when they were new.

While you are doing the above, you and your wife should spend an hour or so most evenings talking about how you want to travel. You've mentioned boondocking and getting somewhat off of the beaten path, but you haven't actually done that. If you have a vehicle that can tow a small trailer, I'd suggest you buy a used pop-up trailer (or borrow one from a friend) and try it for a night or two. Go out to a State or Federal park and camp without using electricity and just the water you have on board. For a better experience, though, use the hookups provided and learn a bit about camping first. If you can't tow, get a tent, a couple of cots, a portable stove and a cooler and camp that way. Most of us started out that way. You may well decide that you really don't like camping. If so, you haven't spent much money.

I'm guessing, though, that you will like it, but want more creature comforts, and that's where the RV come in.

We know a couple who full-time in a 1973 (yes, 1973) Dodge van conversion. They aren't small people, but they are minimalists. They set up a screen tent around the picnic table and put some things in there, so that if they take the van away it is obvious that someone is using that spot.

Good advice. 

I can tell you I was all in on a Phoenix Cruiser for a bit, then I watched a walk through video and was thinking "that guy is shorter than I am, and he's almost hitting his head on every cabinet around the kitchen area....". 

As for camping, been there, done that. I don't want to experience that much nature anymore, but if I can take my 'house' out into the wilds I am pretty sure I'll be happy to be there. A sit down toilet does wonders for improving the camping experience, especially one that isn't in a Boy Scout campground (my God, went the weekend without going the smell was so bad. One of the other dads on the last day looked around at all of us and said "when I get home, I'm going to hug my toilet....". I know I did  ). 

At this early stage, I'm all over the map as far as what rig to get. New Horizons says they'll custom design a Majestic, all I have to do is sign over two of the kids and a few hundred grand and it's mine. 

Anyway, thanks for the advice, I'll be dropping in to ask some more questions as we get closer to the date. 

I've read some check lists and watched some videos so now it's time to ask the experienced owners:

How much effort is it really to set up and take down a fifth wheel? I was all in when we started looking at rigs, then got to thinking that at age 65-67 this might not be the best way to spend my senior years. So we started looking at motorhomes but unless you get a class A you're fighting some significant headroom issues, as well as storage space issues. 

I'm in good health now, take care of my self, don't smoke, drink or eat a lot of crap. I anticipate remaining physically fit, and maybe I'm making more out of this then I should, but I have a few years before we buy so I'm getting as much info as I can prior to the purchase.

Thanks in advance for your replies. 

Kevin

9 hours ago, Wildman said:

Thanks for everyone's replies. 

Yes I understand not many people who full time would choose a truck camper for that. I will say that some of the NEW triple slide campers have a lot more room than older models that only had one or no slides. 

 

I will also say that my reasons for choosing a truck camper is because I have some unique stipulations for what I want to bring with me.

 

 

Just to share a little: 

1) I had a motorhome and didn't like the fact that if I wasn't towing a toad with me once I setup camp if I needed something from the store or wanted to go somewhere I had to pack everything back up to do so. This was my first dislike. 

 

2) I want to bring my toys with me. 

    a) Built Jeep

    b) Touring Harley

So to be able to bring both toys with me I would need a 24' trailer to tow behind a MH. They get bad enough MPG without towing something. Also I'm back to not having a way to run into town under some situations without having to break camp. IE: I break a part on my Jeep that I can't carry on my bike. Not likely BUT it could happen. Also if the weather is crappy and riding the bike isn't a option? 

 

3) Maintenance. I can do most of my own repairs on my truck and camper where as when I had my MH I had to hire out most of my repairs. 

 

Now as I said my situation is a little different. For my needs I am going to build myself another RNTH (Red Neck Toy Hauler) 

This is where you take a truck camper and mount it on the nose of a gooseneck trailer. If I have a GN trailer with 30' deck the camper takes approx 12' of the deck which then leaves me 18' of open deck behind the camper. The Harley will be side mounted behind the camper which will take 4'. That then leaves 14' of open deck for my Jeep to be parked on. Yes an enclosed trailer towed behind the truck could do this also but climbing in and out of the Jeep once it's in the trailer would be difficult. Plus when the Jeep is all dirty after a day of FUN that mess gets inside the trailer. With a open deck it's a lot easier to cleanup afterwards. 

With the camper mounted on a GN trailer once i pull into a spot it is super easy to unhook or hook back up. A GN trailer tows a LOT better than a bumper pull trailer and it is easier to maneuver getting into tight areas.  

 

Here is a few pictures of my old RNTH.... I got stupid and listened to my ex-wife when she felt there wasn't enough room so we sold it and bought a MH. After owning that MH for 5 years I was convinced I would never go that route again. 

 

 

 

 

 

Whoa, now that is a cool idea. 

Although, why not just get a toy hauler? 

On 8/12/2020 at 7:51 AM, Kirk W said:

I suppose that may be possible, but since the discussion was about filling the RV water tank, most RVs have a tank of between 20 and 80 gallons of water. Not only would it be a lot of water to boil, in most RVs it would also be a challenge to get that water into the potable water tank. Boiling water for emergency use is a good technique, but for filling an RV tank is isn't practical. 

If you boil a gallon a day for a week, you'll extend your tank by almost 12%, good for another day (60g tank). 

Seems worth it. 

Although that guzzle makes that a moot point. 

On 8/12/2020 at 9:27 AM, noteven said:

You can use equipment like that from Guzzle H2O to treat water from a source into your unit.

Live and Give 4x4 demo Guzzle H2O

That....is freaking cool. 

10 hours ago, 2gypsies said:

We started with factory installed 4 acid house batteries; 2 chassis.  Later we went to  AGM

As stated, we didn't use much electric at all. .. lights, radio, quick microwave use. Used a stovetop coffee pot and toaster was a fry pan. 

Btw, that hydronic system DOES have a fan for waste gas. Very low draw. 

On 6/5/2020 at 1:18 AM, soos said:

We fulltimed for 7 years, but hubby is project oriented and pretty much started breaking things in the RV so he could fix them. He wanted his “stuff” (tools) back. So, we built a house with 3 full hook up spots for friends, and spend winters entertaining. In the summer we take off, either in our 5th wheel or our truck camper, depending on our destination. 
if it was just my choice I would still be a fulltiming but both people have to want it, to make it work. So, we travel whenever we want. Our biggest stipulation when we built the house was that we agreed that we wouldn’t be tied to it, but would feel free to travel and leave it as much as we wanted. And we do.

This post made me laugh out loud. 👍

1 hour ago, 2gypsies said:

We had 300w for our 40' motorhome and served us very well for 8 years.  Of course, we're not energy hogs.  Charging was easily done wherever we were in the West.... in the East it may be different.  We even got sufficient charge in Glacier Nat'l Park during one solid week of rain parked under trees.  Our panels were in an opening of the trees so even the daytime light in the rain gave us enough charge.  During sunny days we could last forever.

What is your idea of boondocking in the winter on 4x4 roads?   I guess I wrongly assumed by winter you meant in snowy conditions.  Many places in the Southwest to do this.  We used good gravel roads for our stays with the motorhome - up to approximately 20 miles from pavement.  We didn't need 4x4 although we towed a Jeep which gave us excellent options for exploring farther in on true 4x4 roads.

It's just us but we'd prefer a bigger RV for full-timing than you're thinking of and towing a car for siteseeing, shopping, etc.  A car can go and fit in more places than a RV.

What kind of battery pack did you carry? 

You are correct, winter will be  in the snow, however not in the back country. I wouldn't think, at this point anyway, that we'd be off the paved road any real distance as the chances of getting stuck are very real. 

Interesting about being able to maintain your charge in the rain, I hadn't heard that before. 

As far as size is concerned, the 30 footer seemed like plenty of space, we really haven't been in a 25-27 foot yet. Once we see one, we may decide that we also need more space than that. I will say that the 27 foot Northwood Fifth Wheel had enough room, although neither of us liked the layout. The 34 footer seemed gigantic. 

21 minutes ago, rpsinc said:

I am not confused about hydronic heating, I understand the concept.  My confusion is in wanting that type of system in an RV that you intend to use for extended boondocking.  You will need power for a heater, either electric or gas.  Also a blower or a pump will be likely.  Seems that a mini split with a heat pump would be a better choice as they have a proven trackrecord in RVs.  Better to invest in a high quality solar system for boondocking.  Better ROI.

Oh, yeah, the Solar is a given. Lithium Ion batteries for storage. I hear that the Li batteries have to be enclosed or they won't charge below freezing, but I'm pretty sure you can enclose and plumb the battery compartment to keep them warmed with the hydronics. Generator as a fail safe if the weather get's bad for long periods. I don't think there is a fan with the hydronic system, it's all radiant from what I saw of the schematic. There is a pump, but that's like the recirculation pump on a boiler, really low energy consumption. You don't have to move the fluid very fast, and there won't even be any head pressure to overcome in the motorhome, so they power consumption is much less than a traditional MH furnace. 

https://www.alde.us/how-it-works/

But that's another thing to consider, is how much roof space I'll need for the solar panels. I know you can add ~200 watts on a remote, but I'm not sure how big a rig I need to get enough solar to extend my stay off grid. Shooting for 2 weeks at a time. 

23 minutes ago, rpsinc said:

Seems from here that hydronic heating and a composting toilet to extend time for boondocking are opposite extents of the objective.  

Am I missing something?

My understanding of the hydronic system (and all hydronic systems for that matter) is that it's a closed loop, with a lot of antifreeze in it. It also acts as the water heater, I think, at least it can. Very low power consumption, at a trade off of long run times in order to bring the temp in the rig up. The ones in the Airstream are a swedish made unit, and work with fins around piping inside the cabinets, although they may be mounted in other places also. There is also an option to heat the floor by running pex underneath, but I think that would take considerably more work to retrofit into any of these units. 

44 minutes ago, 2gypsies said:

I don't understand the wording in the link you provided for renovated RVs.  It states:

 

The minimum budget required is $50,000 for a fifth wheel or $30,000 for a travel trailer.

This budget covers purchasing the RV from us and the renovation. 

 

I'm reading that for $50,000 you can buy the RV and have renovations done.  What kind of RV are they talking about for that price?

You might want to pick out your RV and then go to the manufacturer to see how it's built before renovation.

Before putting a lot of money into an older RV decide if you will keep it a long time.  Most RVers will not buy an old RV.  You'll have a very limited audience for resale especially if you include a composting toilet and removing the black tank. When you start talking about changing the drivetrain and moving the whole kitchen you're going to get into more money than you think.

You're considering winter camping so want 4x4.  You'd had better have a satellite phone.  Driving in the backcountry on unplowed roads could easily turn into being stranded.. even with 4x4.

Good luck with your project!  I hope you'll return with the finished RV to show us it CAN be done. 

 

 

I'll confess that the fifth wheel  conversion seems to be a pretty low price, however it is what it is as far as I can tell. You get the fifth wheel renovated, unless I'm missing something. They specialize in the Montana, seems to be pretty much all they'll work on. And they have an higher opinion of it than I do, but my opinion is theoretical not practical. 

A huge issue is one you've touched on, that's deciding on a rig that we'll want to live in after the renovations. We plan on renting as we get closer to our departure date and won't commit to a rig unless we've spent time in one that has the same approximate footprint. It would really suck to dump 50k into a rig and find out that it was too small for our tastes. 😟 I don't really care about the resale (given we pick the right rig). I have six children, one or more of them will get use out of the rig once we either come off the road or pass. That's why I have a limited set of rigs that I will consider, the basic construction has to be good enough that it will last many years.

Drivetrain is 13.8k. Manageable. 

Stranded is a distinct possibility. However, I'm  at my age I won't head into the wilds of a National forest in the Rockies in the winter in order to see nature. I'll be winter camping somewhere where I can experience the weather but bug out if needed.  

As far as showing off the project, if it comes to fruition, I'll be happy to. If I simply buy a rig and modify it for boondocking, I'll post that one also. 👍

7 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Since you do not understand the way in which RVs are constructed, I would suggest that you start by visiting at least one and preferable several RV factories and tour them to see what it is that people here are talking about. You seem to believe that it is a very simple thing to do and that most anyone could do it. I think that what you have in mind is much more complicated than you realize. Most of the larger cabinets and appliances are installed inside of the RV before the exterior is put on. Twice I have helped a friend convert a bus into and RV and over my years of RVing I have made many modifications to them. Very little in those projects was ever easy and most of the time it is also expensive. 

As we consider the cost of this RV, NADA lists the 2005 Coach-House as average retail of $34,900. Then if you add another $50,000 to your cost that will get you to a cost far above what you would ever be able to recover, should you not choose to keep it. In addition, you will have difficulty finding an insurance underwriter willing to insure it for that far about the usual depreciated price. 

Before you get too far into this project, I advise that you contact some RV remodeling companies and discuss with them the plans that you have in mind.

You have confused what I have said. 

However, I am looking at this from the perspective of someone who has done quite a bit of work on his own home (currently have the kitchen gutted and in the process of putting new flooring and cabinets in) and not from the perspective of someone who has worked on a motorhome. While the folks I've talked to in the industry haven't expressed concerns, I do want to hear from owners who've been down this path so that I can factor their experience into the decision making process of buying new or used. 

I understand that there are challenges to this process that I am unaware of. One of the folks on your list gave me the ballpark price I have referenced (specific to my thoughts about modifying the 2552) and did not seemed concerned about being able to do what I had asked. However, he's in the business to get this kind of work, which I understand, so instead of taking his word for it I wanted to get some feedback from folks who've been through the process.  

You seem to have done some of this before, I get that it's 'hard', what I don't know yet is in what way is it hard? Generally speaking, is it impossible to relocate the kitchen? Is the furnace unable to be relocated in the unit? One of the biggest issues I see are windows and placing cabinets around them, can the windows be modified or am I stuck with them where they are? 

That is the type of information I'm really interested in finding out. 

8 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

Cabinets don't move around easily. They're attached from the outside. $50k will get eaten up faster than you can believe. Hang onto your wallet.

https://theflippingnomad.com/renovated-rvs/

That's 50k for a completely renovated fifth wheel. I'm sure that  is the lowest price, but obviously they are moving cabinets around. 

What do you mean that the cabinets are attached from the outside? 

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+are+cabinets+hung+in+an+rv&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS821US821&oq=how+are+cabinets+hung+in+an+rv&aqs=chrome..69i57j0j69i64.6071j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_jE4zX8CYCoSO5wKhqYqwDg25

They look like they are screwed into the ceiling and back wall in this video. 🤔

Anyone here certified? I'm considering taking the courses so that I can have a side gig when I'm on the road. With the explosion in popularity, this seems like a growth industry. 

This is a second option (the preferred, actually)

https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2012-Phoenix-Usa-CRUISER-2551-5012493043

On this unit, the kitchen would relocate back into the area where the beds are, the front would be opened up to a living space with a fold out queen sized bed. The roof would be treated by RV Armor or similar with a lifetime guarantee not to leak, while the drivetrain would be converted to 4WD. 

In the case of the Phoenix rigs, the reconditioned unit would be much closer in price to the new units, however I would have the floor plan that I'm looking for (bathroom in back, bedroom/living are in front). 

There are issues with windows, refrigerator etc. that the remodeler would have to address, and that's one of the things I'm looking for answers on. 

Here's ab example of what I'm thinking of doing:

https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2005-Coach-House-272XLS-5013355545

That's a 2005 Coach House. The integrity of the fiberglass shell won't have changed much over the years (subject to inspection, of course) however the interior is quite dated. 

I'm reliably informed that for 50K I can have it gutted, Li batteries installed with a solar hookup and all new furniture and cabinets. I would consider it a sin to remove the cabinetry from this rig (subject to inspection) as it looks immaculate as it is, however the sofa, chairs, heating and cooling system would all come out and be replaced. 

A new Coach House 272XLS lists for around 190k, and if I get the best deal I can I might get it for 150k or so. At 109k all in on the used, I could replace the engine , drivetrain and suspension in the rig and still come out ahead. 

On this particular rig I wouldn't be doing a lot of reorganizing per se, however there are others on my list that I would be shifting the kitchen and bedroom around to make it more to my tastes. 

So, it sounds good to me, a lot like buying an old house and fixing it up. Just make sure the old house has a solid foundation and is in a good location before putting the money in. 

2 minutes ago, SWharton said:

There are custom builders out there, you would probably be better off going that way but until you RV you don't really know what you want. I have recently seen a mfg. that had essentially drop-in units for a van. There are many options out there but I would think a custom build would be an easier solution.

Who would these folks be? 

And by easier, you don't mean cheaper....😉

Older thread, but I haven't seen anyone suggesting that you boil water from a water source close to your campsite. The EPA recommends this method for creating potable water so I'm wondering why no one in the RV community ever seems to use it? 

They even suggest adding a pinch of salt to improve the flavor  

6 minutes ago, sandsys said:

That does not negate the challenge of you wanting specific items which may or may not be doable but you won't know until you pick an RV, make your design, then find out if what you want can be done. You may not know that many RV manufacturers build the interior before enclosing the walls so they have good access which is not available later. In my van, the furnace was nearly unreachable because it was installed before the cupboard was built around it. Once the service guy got it out where he could reach it he decided not to put it all the way back which affected my storage space but I decided was a reasonable trade off. You might want to consider having a tiny house built instead as those builders are used to doing custom builds and they can build to RVIA standards if desired.

Linda

From what I see, the systems in these rigs are pretty basic. There aren't  a  lot of complicated bits that can't be moved or modified if there's a partial tearout that allows the remodeler access to them. The plumbing is all PEX, which is stupid easy to work with, all the AC units sit up on the roof, and the furnace, well, I've installed a coal boiler in my house then re-plumbed all the hydronics to get them to work efficiently.  I suspect that if there is a partial tearout I'll be looking at a hydronic heating system to replace the hot air usually found in these things (the one in the Airstream would be ideal). I'll be putting in a composting toilet to reduce water usage and extend boondocking ability, so that will eliminate the use of a black water tank and all the dump paraphanalia associated with it. 

You are correct that a lot of these things will be hidden in hard to reach places, however with some exceptions (If I can find a rear bathroom model I like that area wouldn't have to be remodeled) taking off cabinets and removing furniture en masse shouldn't present a major problem for relocating the mechanical bits when it comes time to put them back in. 

However, I am looking at this from the perspective of someone who has done quite a bit of work on his own home (currently have the kitchen gutted and in the process of putting new flooring and cabinets in) and not from the perspective of someone who has worked on a motorhome. While the folks I've talked to in the industry haven't expressed concerns, I do want to hear from owners who've been down this path so that I can factor their experience into the decision making process of buying new or used. 

8 minutes ago, sandsys said:

Rebuilding an RV is harder than remodeling a house because everything is inside something else. For instance it's hard to replace a couch if your fresh water tank is built into it.  We had a dinette where the furnace was built in under one bench. It's not unusual for the engine compartment to be partly under the bed. A water heater may be under the kitchen counter. All those things would restrict what you could do. Maybe if you are good at playing Tetris you could figure it out but I sure wouldn't want to do it.

Linda Sand

Fair points, however I will be letting a professional do the remodel on the rig. Were I younger, I'd do it myself, but I'm now at an age where I would prefer to benefit from the expertise of others doing the manual labor while I enjoy the end result. 

A big concern I have is relocating the refrigerator. I'm not entirely sure how well that can be done, as it would appear that the old outside access in the coach would have to be sealed and a new one would have to be cut. That is a little concerning, and one of the things I'm looking for advice on. 

4WD doesn't mean you won't get stuck, it means you'll get stuck in worse places! 

Hi, Kirk!
 

First off, thank you for such a thoughtful reply. The reason I join forums is because of people like you. 
 

So, experience. Very little camping, very little 4wd. The 4wd on the rig is not so much to get into the those out of the way places, just to get a little further in then everyone else. We intend to do some winter camping, so it will be useful in inclement weather. The toad will be the exploration vehicle, however I’m well aware of my limits, so unless I take an off road driving course I’m not going to challenge the vehicle to its limits. As far as plans for traveling, we’d like to get to Alaska, Canada, follow fall south from New Hampshire, spend winter in the Keys, etc. The first few years, being our healthiest, will also be our busiest. So the RV doesn’t necessarily have to substitute for a house, at least initially. 
 

I’m a fit 6 footer, she’s petite. The dog will take up the most space. We’ve looked at a Phoenix 2910T and that seemed to have enough room at just over 31 feet. Giving up 4 of that to gain better control of the vehicle and park access would seem to be a fair trade. In researching rigs, there are only a few that meet my quality criteria, and they are close to my budget new without having a floor plan that I like. 
 

Which is why I’m considering buying a high quality used rig, doing a partial tear out and rebuilding it to my (my wife’s) tastes. But like everything else regarding RV’s, I have zero exp with that option, so I’m hoping someone here could share their’s. 

Such as? 

The review I did shows that the smaller ones are either very difficult to drive or have build quality issues. I am also very leery of Class A MH because of the lack of regulations regarding the safety of the driver and passenger seat occupants. With a B or C I know I have a Ford or Mercedes (well, Ford, I won't be going the Mercedes route) cab that has passed occupant safety regulations. With a Class A, especially the lower priced ones, I wouldn't be so sure.