FlyFishn

As to the benefits - yep. There is no comparison to bigger commercial trucks (7/8, even 6 vs 5 and under) and pickups from a "heavy duty'ness" perspective. Everything is "heavier" and "more robust", not to mention the tire strength and slow wear. 500,000 miles on a semi and it still is going strong, 100,000 miles on a pickup and you're probably in "repair frequently" territory. There is also the vehicle cost perspective. A used donor semi is probably a lot cheaper than a pickup up front. Then there is the modification and set up of said donor truck. There is a thread here I think where a guy made a bed for a semi with dry boxes in the sides and a toad mount/track/ramp system. I like the design - and I can fabricate that kind of stuff. As to the "stuff" being contained in/on the "truck" - that is a thought. But the question of driving around and getting to sites is there. I don't know of any toad that would have the capacity of a pickup truck, and be 4wd. When I started down the road of thinking about RV options - the "stuff" aspect was always part of it. And what would be nice is to have an equipment trailer that is set up with gear ready to go. That way I don't have everything stored in my daily driver, per se (some stuff always is, but a full trip load every day doesn't make much sense). That leads in to the question of how to drive 1 vehicle without pulling double trailers (say, 5th wheel and equipment trailer behind the 5th wheel). Though some states allow doubles like that, some don't, and not knowing where we'll end up I have to plan for the places that don't. So we're back to 2 units - the truck and RV. In the HDT scenario - what do I drive around that I can put all my gear in and work out of? I've had my pickup truck stuck before so its not out of the question, and we do get off roads - parking in yards, fields, dirt or gravel driveways, and the list goes on. Semi trucks with a driven front axle are extremely rare and when you do find them the sellers know what they have and they are extremely expensive. So going the HDT route the most I might be able to imagine is maybe a locking rear differential - and if it isn't equipped that way from the start I might be able to add it. The majority of over-the-road semis don't have driven front axle options, when you get in to some of the specialty trucks (like those chassis that vacuum trucks, dump trucks, and cement trucks are built on) then you get in to the driven front axle options - so those could be converted if not already set up that way. But going that route automatically multiplies the price, with or without the driven front axle, because those aren't your "run of the mill", "dime a dozen", over-the-road semis.

Lots of good replies this morning and lots to think about. In relation to the above - I appreciate the perspective. A buddy of mine has a trailer in that range that has a Murphy Bed that converts in to a couch. They really like the trailer. However, I don't like the Murphy Beds and we want a hard walled off bedroom. This is getting to the other thread I have in the TT forum, but the 3 areas we want comfortable are: bedroom (already mentioned), kitchen, and bathroom - specifically the shower. After walking through some and feeling the space in the shower - a 30x36" is about the minimum I would be comfortable with. Between the smaller rectangular showers and the corner showers - I prefer the corner showers, if I were in desperate need to compromise on the shower size/configuration. I wouldn't be willing to compromise with a small rectangular shower, but I still don't feel the corner showers are roomy enough but they do have more side elbow room due to the angles. The overall idea is to have 1 RV that will work for our uses. And that is a hard thing to think through. On pleasure trips we could have other friends and family along - they need a place to sleep comfortably and we need a kitchen to support people. That's where the better half's perspectives are important - I need to make sure she's well-equipped. And to that point I can already see needing to upgrade the range/oven to one that is big enough to suit her uses (I'm not opposed to that - it is a consideration as I look at counters and cabinets - I don't care about height or depth matching, if I can open up the counter and cabinets to get the width in we're all good). I suppose another route would be to get a small cheap unit that covers the basics of what I need on trips, and will accommodate her (she won't be along for that much time on disaster relief trips as much, at least for the foreseeable future) then get a larger unit down the road. That would ease up the near-term options a bunch - and if we went that route a TT would be the obvious choice with the truck loaded as usual.

As far as 5th wheel hitches go - I would want a conventional sturdy 5th wheel hitch. Moving it isn't much of an issue, I can set up to do that pretty easy - the rigging is already with me anyway. The only addition would be a 2nd ladder (set 2 extension ladders up as an A to get wide enough to clear the truck and hoist off the ladders - I do that all the time, not OSHA approved but I've done it for years - I did the same thing to move a chunk of limestone around 4-500lbs that we laid as a deck step, one man [+ 2 ladders, winch, & rigging] operation). If I went non-air-ride then the B&W Companion with the Reece Elite puck system (what the OEM Ford system is) would be the route I would go (non slider, I have an 8ft bed). If I went air-ride then Trailer Saver TS3 or TSLB2H with the same puck system. Off topic, but for what it is worth if anyone is reading this or searches for it later - the Trailer Saver TSLB (MDT/HDT version of the TS3) does have an adapter option for the Reese Elite/Ford OEM under-bed puck system. At least they did a couple years ago... Considering that would be the hitch to get to the capacity of heavier trucks like the higher payload capacity F450's & F550's I imagine they still offer the adapter. Just pay attention to all the component ratings and if you go over 5000lb pin you need the 3ord air bag (cheaper up front, but you can upgrade it down the road). The TSLB is supposed to be 50lbs heavier than the TS3 (400lbs TS3 + puck adapter, 450lbs TSLB + puck adapter).

@D&J - Thanks for the box idea. That gives me some good food for thought. Though the box idea gives me some options, what it doesn't do is satisfy the "enclosed bed" idea. The volume in the boxes might only be 1/4, if that even, of the total volume available with a cap - and being separate boxes they would not be able to contain bulky things - like building materials, miter saw, table saw, etc. They will, however, be able to hold chains and other rigging gear (and keep it better organized - big plus), smaller hand held power tools, maybe some shorter long tools like sledge hammer, axe, pry bars, but not shovels. The obvious question is can't some of that stuff get wet in an open bed - like shovels? That doesn't solve the theft problem and we've had an issue with that - working in residential areas and going back to the trucks stuff has magically walked off. Just thinking out loud here - the box idea does most certainly help with weight distribution. That would allow a significant amount of weight to ride in the truck that would otherwise have to ride in a 5th wheel.

@franco-bolli thanks for the feedback. Can you detail what you did with the axle alignment? Are you saying the unit was "crabbing" (IE - tracking sideways compared to the tow vehicle)? Or something different? As to the pressure tank for the water pump - I think that is the way our cabins are. We have a jaccouzi pump with a ballast tank to hold "water pressure" through the property. Did the system you started with run the pump any time there was water demand, period? Did you have to upgrade the pump to one that worked as a system with the ballast tank? Or was just adding a ballast tank sufficient?

Interesting post. This sounds pretty close to what we're looking at. What Hensley hitch do you have? Did you use any hitches previously to the Hensley? If so - what made you upgrade? If not - why did you go straight to the Hensley? Have you scaled your rig loaded on a trip? I would be curious what your numbers are - both truck ratings (axles, GVWR) and combination weights as scaled. I looked at the ProPride's (what Hensley turned in to) about a month ago - I watched the install/set up video series. That is an intriguing hitch design, but at ~$3500 I have a hard time justifying that. That is air ride 5th wheel territory on pricing.

No "business" at the moment, per se. Disaster relief is volunteer at this point. However, to ground the perspectives in the discussion - it is the biggest challenge to suit our overall "set up" to because there are a lot of dynamics to it - not simply "camping". And that is where the point of the thread comes in - to satisfy those dynamics we need an overall set up that allows use of the truck as a truck (enclosed bed). So I am trying to weigh the challenges in converting the truck bed on-site with a 5th wheel, or go the TT route. As to lengths of stay - you're right on the mark - several days to ~3 weeks at a time maybe. We could be anywhere around the country. Down the road we would like to do more personal traveling. For the foreseeable future I think our trips together might be limited more to long weekend outings given other obligations but we don't want to constrain things to that, rather set up for the ability to be comfortable for longer periods. That gets to another thread I have in the TT forum so I won't duplicate here.

Down the road anything is fair game. Speaking in terms of the near future - its not in the cards. This is a bit of a tangent to the discussion at hand, but I do have a class A license (no restrictions, and doubles/triples/tanks endorsements). I would like to get a class 7 or 8 truck down the road. The reason being I don't see there being much of a benefit to payload between 3, 4, 5, and 6 and considering the cab space for as much "truck" as they may be they generally have pretty small cabs. Between all the semi's Ive driven and some smaller class 6-7 straight trucks - if I was to upgrade a truck for higher payload alone I'd be really tempted to go straight to a class 7+. At some point in the future if I get to the point of "replacing my pickup truck" - would I go DRW then? Its possible, depending on the circumstances. My truck has been my daily driver though and a DRW would be even more of a challenge parking. Not to mention if I went to a class 7 for a pulling rig - the idea of it being a "daily driver" is out the window. The other side to this is the "disaster relief" use case I outlined in a previous post - I can't really drive around a class 7 truck and I can't haul much gear in a toad.

Thanks for the thoughts Linda. The use-case I outlined isn't "pleasure camping" or "traveling", per se. It is disaster relief = working to do storm clean up, demolition, construction, etc. All that requires tools and equipment. Getting "there" (wherever "there" is) is the important thing, no matter how you slice it - "work" is the trip, in this case, and therefore the "work" to "make the trip" isn't a "make or break" deal. It certainly does add complexity, but confined largely to arrival/departure. To contrast - the way I do things now is I camp in the truck. I have a bunk set up in the truck bed and pack all my tools/equipment in there (and some on top - ladder, fuel tanks). At night the generator is in-use and out of the truck bed so that opens up some space to where I can get in there and move things around to make it work, but there is a fair amount of "set up and tear down" every day as where I sleep is the same place I drive around with all my gear. If I split the two with an RV then I can set it up for living quarters and leave it set up, then set the truck up for using as a truck, and leave it set up, for what ever the duration is. Right now things are all combined and there is the set up/tear down every day - as simplified/bare bones as it is - it still takes time/effort every day, vs just arrival and departure. Pleasure trips/traveling would be a different situation as the destination (if one) or the trip (if being on the road for an extended period/multiple destinations/no set destination) wouldn't contain the variety of "work tasks", though they may contain some.

Weight, any way you slice it, no matter where it goes, is a consideration - yes. Axle capacity on an RV is the key area I am looking at. Some units have very little room between "dry weight" and "GVWR". On the other hand, some models use higher capacity axles that their larger models in a line-up may have but are lighter weight units = more head room on payload. Lots to consider, for sure.

Interesting. I've never heard of such a thing commercially made. The functionality is getting at what my idea is, but I don't like the fabric and sliding "accordion-style" form factor. I have a fabric tonneu (extang full tilt) also and it is not very sturdy. Its been in storage for about 4-5 years, namely because I don't need to take the cap off right now and don't have anywhere to put the cap if I do take it off right now. With a design that uses aluminum tube framing and rail mounts for said tube frame it would be pretty easy to make hard panels that screw in to the framing - and would make for a more solid attachment for a rear tilt window/door like a conventional cap.

Those that have experience with both bumper pulls (TT's, park models, destination trailers, and the like) and 5th wheels - can you offer some experience-based perspectives to this? The end goal is I need to use my truck bed with the functionality of an enclosed truck bed. On the surface that would preclude a 5th wheel, however I have thought through the idea of making a cap that is able to come apart/go back together. That would introduce two challenges/lack of convenience factors to a 5th wheel: 1. The 5th wheel hitch would have to come out (hoist/winch, I don't move heavy stuff like that without a hoist/winch) 2. The assembly/disassembly of said cap would take time and effort 3. Moving gear between transport storage in the 5th wheel and the truck bed would take time/effort. That having been said - what I am trying to weigh the options on are: A. Go with a bumper pull design that would: 1. Add in hitch complexity - WD, possibly sway control = poorer handling 2. Allow me to keep the truck bed enclosed as-is (F350 CCLB SRW with Leer 180 cap) B. Go with a 5th wheel 1. No added complexity to hitch mechanics to tame handling issues 2. Adds in the complexity of converting the truck bed to enclosed used when at destination, and the moving of stuff from the RV to the truck bed. I suppose the bottom line is - will the benefits of a 5th wheel out-weigh the added complexity of the enclosed truck bed use-case I have? My gut tells me the handling would be so much better than a bumper pull. I towed a gooseneck car hauler for a couple years so I have some base of that which my gut is telling me, but the need is an enclosed truck bed. In another thread I posed the idea of a sectional trailer with an equipment section that could be split off. Though a neat idea, reality says the best way to have a starting point with things is to forego the enclosed equipment trailer idea and make do with the truck with no trailer. That may very well suffice entirely as long as between the truck and RV I have everything wherever I end up. If I am across the country and gear I need is back home that doesn't do me any good. If it is in the RV where I am based out of, but not in the truck, then worst case I would just have to go back to the RV if I didn't have a heads-up the day before to tip me off to load what I needed before I leave for the day in the first place. Given your personal experience and transition between different RV's and set ups - what thoughts can you offer that might give us some more grounding to our thoughts and direction?

@Kirk W Thanks for the feedback! From a functionality standpoint of what I see in the floorplan on that one - I like the fixed bed, over the Murphy Bed or fold-out couch/bed options that some of the shorter units have. For some shorter trips/solo trips - something like that would work, but I know we would be a lot happier with more living space in the 3 key areas - bedroom, bathroom, kitchen.

@duraduk - Excellent feedback. Since you have been an owner of a unit for ~19 years - can you please elaborate on your experiences? You mention continuing to "refurbish to your needs" - what do mean specifically with that? Also, how much do you use the RV? As in - are you using it over 10-20,000 miles a year? Does it sit in a permanent spot at a year-round campground? Does it sit in your side yard under trees and you take it out 2-3 times a year? What "deteriorations" have you seen? Does it use torsion axles or leaf springs? Have you replaced any suspension/running gear hardware? How about things like mentioned earlier in this thread - the under side of some Forest River units' slides rotting? Have you had any notable problems with the plumbing? HVAC?

Interesting question. I camp and backpack a lot (non-RV camping) and converted over to using a Katadyn gravity filtration system for camp water. The system I have is with a 10L bag. I've never had any water-related issues/sickness I could trace back to the water. I am not sure how you would be able to fill your tank efficiently with something like the Katadyn system, but it would certainly work for preparing several gallons of water a day. You just have to keep up with filling the bag. I'll fill up to 2 gallons camping. That is a huge improvement in camp life over the hand operated filter pumps we used to use when I was in college. We would use the hand pumps to fill a 32oz nalgene bottle or two - and that was a lot of work. Now getting even several gallons of filtered water to use in camp is a piece of cake comparatively - just keep an eye on the container that is collecting the water so you don't over fill it, and keep up with filling the bag. On the contrary to filtered "potable water" - we use straight lake water at our cabins for showers, sinks, and toilets. Its been that way up there for 4 generations. We tank in well water from our neighbors for drinking. So as far as stream water goes - I don't see any reason you can't use it. If it were me, I wouldn't drink it straight unless it was a fresh mountain stream, but even then with the Katadyn filter system its too easy to filter to not filter and take the risk, however small it might be.

Thanks for the info/tip on Thor Industries. I have heard of them before, now that I think about it. That name came up a while back when I was looking in to 5th wheels. However, I was unaware DRV was under their umbrella - and honestly that surprises me quite a bit.

We went to a dealer yesterday and walked through several. Their new inventory is Keystone products. We looked at both travel trailers and 5th wheels. Base build quality feels similar through the lineups. On the "high end" we looked at a Montana 5th wheel 3121RL. I noticed some things were upgrades - like faucets and bathroom sinks - in the Montanas, but it felt like the structure/density of most things was still "hollow" and "light" if that makes sense. I suppose that is a point of reality checking - I realize the idea of commercially made (mass produced) RV's is to get the most for the least = most "stuff" for the space and weight. So to that point that may just be how everything in the RV world is. But will it last over time? What problems can be anticipated down the road? If seemingly everything is built to that "hollow" and "light" standard - are there variations in quality of construction in that category that may be "higher end" than not? As to features - in reading the better half she really really likes the island kitchen designs. In discussing the options - the main point she is getting across is to have "counter space" for working in with meal prep. That is going to be hard to come by in a non-slide unit. A few more thoughts I have - the Keystone units we looked at - I was more impressed with the sealing on the slides they had than what I remember in years past. However, they used some wonky "vapor barriers" that seem cheap and easily damaged to me. The rubber seals also seem questionable - how brittle do they get when it gets cold? Are they easily damaged? How hard is it to remove the slides and repair those components? With the winter packages - is there really that much of an upgrade on the seal-ability of the slides? Lots of thoughts - we'll keep looking and when we can will check out some other options. There are a few dealers around. Getting to them to see other units will be a good weekend thing - so long as they have inventory. Apparently RV's are going like hot cakes in today's market.

Old thread (more than 1/2 year from the start) now, but a few key points. Others have hit on the maintenance and integrity on vehicles - this is the key. A few key areas: - Drivetrain (engine down to hubs) - A good mechanic can tell a lot about key components (engine, trans, differentials) by looking at the oil and checking for metal particles, for example. Spark plugs on gasoline engines can also be tell-tales. - Frame - Rust was already pointed out. On pickup trucks sometimes the bed mounts + rails and body mounts can rust through. - Suspension components - Namely springs and spring mounts. Coil and leaf springs can both fail after a lot of loaded miles and with the help of rusting. This is something I am looking at replacing on my truck - both front coils and rear leaf packs. I don't have any visible issues with them yet, but I do look at them every time I am working on the truck just in case. 2011 F350 with north of 177k miles and going, I'm the original owner. - Hitch components - This really gets back to the frame question as hitches are part of the integrity of the frame/structure of combinations (trucks/trailers). - Any weldment - inspect welds for cracks. Cracks generally propagate in-line with welds if there are any. These can develop around the HAZ (heat affected zone) of the base metal next to the weld/edge of weld as well as right smack down the middle of the weld beads. I'd generally say that, on steel, rust is a bigger issue to keep an eye on than welds being an issue, but both are good to keep in check.

Right. The point is a bit off topic here, but D range tires on SRW trucks can be an issue. If someone puts D range tires on a 3/4 ton truck they might get a softer ride but the load rating on them is likely a good bit less than the axle ratings and where the GVWR would load them to (likely under the axle ratings, but also very likely under the load ratings of the tires). Knowing what the actual numerical load rating on both tires and axles is important - not just the letters. Though, letters do give you a quick reference point if you know what they mean. If you should have E range tires, for the example here, and find D range - giant red flag. Ideally your tires should be numerically higher rated than the axle they are on. If you have a 7k axle, for example, then your tire ratings should be over that. For an SRW truck that would be, perhaps, 3650lbs or 3800lbs per tire. If the tires are, say, 3250lbs - that totals 6500lbs - 500lbs under axle rating. Considering my truck's ratings - there is over 1000lbs more capacity on axle ratings than GVWR, so a 3250lb tire rating might suffice at GVWR, depending on where the weight is, but that is just one more number to make darn sure you're not surpassing. I'd be more scared of surpassing a tire rating than an axle rating, but scared of both for sure. I've been in a tow vehicle with a trailer axle break going down the road - don't want to be in one again, as passenger or driver.

Thanks for the info Ken. I remember inspecting slide assembly/function on a lot of the RV's I looked at several years ago and it was common to have a pretty crude/loose joint there - so much so that you could see light, and in some cases all the way out to the pavement at the dealers' lots, when lifting the "carpet flap" That is a major reason I don't want slides - that lack of sealing would be a big concern especially in the cold weather for energy loss - IE - cold getting in through there. If the materials are able to harbor moisture (wood, manufactured particle boards, MDF, masonite, what have you) - there's the root of the problem.

Somewhat in-line with my previous post - my truck's GVWR is 11,500. I've scaled around 12,200. I don't recall what my axle weights were, but likely well under on the axles. That was with gear in the bed and on top, no trailer, so I am sure my front axle was loaded up past empty by a good bit. The opposite is true for a bumper pull trailer (even with WD - you can return some of the front axle weight over the change from empty to no WD, but not 100% of it). With a bed-mounted hitch (gooseneck/5th wheel) the loading change depends on where the loaded hitch weight is centered - if it is right over top the rear axle it shouldn't change the front axle loading much if any. If it is ahead of the rear axle it should add a bit of loading up front.

"Where" the weight is wasn't the point - it was the low ratings. The "where" description/points was an illustration to get to the point of the low ratings. Have you scaled your rig to see what kind of payload you can get and stay "within the numbers"? I suspect that isn't going to give you a whole lot of head room, if any, on any of the numbers - trailer axle capacities, truck rear axle capacity, and either/both combined GVWR's - unless you get to a class 7 truck (classes 4, 5, and 6 are hard to get a truck configured to have any amenities with much left over payload). That was the heart of the overall question - if you put heavier axles on the trailer so as to not risk max'ing our and overloading the OEM axles (easy to do) - can you get the registration to reflect higher GVWR than the manufacturers' rating? If not - at least the heavier axles are more head room at max gross, as opposed to riding right on the proverbial "edge".

See earlier discussion: Thanks for the thoughts. We did think about truck campers. I didn't take the thought very far for exactly what you hit on - the length which gets right to the heart of the "living space" question.

@Kirk W - Excellent suggestions! The Landmarks are very intriguing. Those seem to be more along the lines of "tiny houses" than "RV's". They really do open the aperture to the possibilities of what you can do with a trailer frame and what looks on the outside to be a pretty down right ugly "box". Those bring up a good point - I've looked at some of the park models/destination trailers out there also. I'm not opposed to those formats. Between the two, though - destination/parks or the Landmarks - the Landmarks are more in-line with my thoughts on "layout" - they are tall, wide, and no slides. I am not sure what to make of the flip-down decks, but looking at it in a different perspective - there is a lot of glass in their models so the function of the deck in "road mode" protects the sliding glass doors. Looking at the Landmarks it really makes me want to make my own - a lot of the materials they use from what I can see are easy to work with (metal siding, metal roof, interior wood slat siding/ceilings, cabinetry, counters, plumbing, windows, doors, flooring - at their price point I am thinking it is actual wood flooring, but luxury laminate flooring could be used also and look just as good). They do state they use spray foam insulation. That gets pricey. There are kits you can buy that have the bottles of the "stuff" but they are expensive. Between those kits and a commercial outfit to do it - not sure it would be worth the savings to do it with the hassle or just hire it out. Or go the DRV route and use fiberglass insulation like in a house (I'm not sure if they've changed that, but when I looked at them that was one of the points I liked - they had thick walls with fiberglass insulation).

I suppose this is a more generic question than specific to travel trailers. When I was studying 5th wheels a while back something that caught my attention was in a lot of cases the combined axle capacity was LESS than the GVWR. Doing the numbers the combination of 3 factors is what satisfied the GVWR: 1 - axle 2 - axle 3 - pin weight For example - if there were a pair of 6,000lb axles under a 5th wheel with a GVWR of 14,400lbs. The combined axle rating is 12k - but the GVWR is 2400lbs higher. Where does the extra 2400lbs come from? Pin weight. That really bothers me that the manufacturers run the numbers like that. Numerically it may "work" but there is 0 head room* on the ratings. Back in the day they didn't know how to make things cheap so they just made things good. *Edit - if you look at the "dry" weight of trailers (and I agree with so many here and elsewhere - the manufacturers' numbers rarely are accurate - to know your weights you need to scale, point blank) the numbers allow for some room between the "dry weight" and the "GVWR", or "loaded for a trip" weight limit. I think most would agree that GVWR is usually pretty easy to hit and surpass if you aren't careful. As with the truck example further down - the axles are heavier than the GVWR - why do RV manufacturers have to be so cheap they run axles right up to the top limits with little head room? My truck, for example, has heavier axles than the GVWR. It is 11,500lbs GVWR with a 7k rear and 5600lb front axle rating, respectively. The axles add up to 12,600lbs. So when ya think about the way the numbers roll here - the truck's GVWR is LOWER than the combined axle ratings. In the example with the "light" trailer axles - the GVWR is HIGHER than the combined axle ratings. No matter the platform (TT, 5th) - does anyone know if there is a way you could re-register at a higher GVWR if the axles are replaced with higher rated ones? For example - on a TT with 4,000lb tandem axles and a 9k GVWR - if you replace with 6,000lb axles can you re-register with a higher GVWR? If you go to the HDT forums this is done in reverse - "singling" class 8 trucks to drop the GVWR and the associated higher registration/insurance fees. Either way, getting to the point of the "light" axles commonly used on RV's - they scare me from the start, and I'm known to be a heavy packer. When I was a kid the front axle of one of our boat trailers broke a leaf spring going down the road and the axle went sideways locking up the rear axle so I know things can happen with axles. Heavier ratings run lighter will have that "head room" to keep things safer. I just don't particularly like the idea of running axles right to the max.