oldjohnt

12 hours ago, xctraveler said:

We all have to keep some old stuff for memory's sake

XC, I AGREE its hard to give up the meters I bought with my own hard earned money back in high school lol

HOWEVER when working on some older electrical devices (like say the generator on an old tractor) and even often on the RV,  I still pull out my old Simpson because with all the fluttering and unsteady voltage fluctuations "some" DIGITAL meters sort of loose their mind lol and don't display any steady reading, while my old  damped ANALOG meter reads fairly steady and accurate. I have digitals BUT I STILL LIKE MY OLD ANALOG SIMPSON. While it takes an actual true capacitor tester to measure and test those devices, I can still use my Simpson "kickback test" to provide at least some indication of their quality.

Nice chattin with you, get those old meter fixed up lol   

John T   Full time starting this Sunday (have half timed for 10 years)  the wife has the RV packed to the gills.................. She better not have tossed out my Simpson lol

9 hours ago, xctraveler said:

We all have to keep some old stuff for memory's sake

XC, I AGREE its hard to give up the meters I bought with my own hard earned money back in high school lol

HOWEVER when working on some older electrical devices (like say the generator on an old tractor) and even often on the RV,  I still pull out my old Simpson because with all the fluttering and unsteady voltage fluctuations "some" DIGITAL meters sort of loose their mind lol and don't display any steady reading, while my old  damped ANALOG meter reads fairly steady and accurate. I have digitals BUT I STILL LIKE MY OLD ANALOG SIMPSON. While it takes an actual true capacitor tester to measure and test those devices, I can still use my Simpson "kickback test" to provide at least some indication of their quality.

Nice chattin with you, get those old meter fixed up lol   

John T   Full time starting this Sunday (have half timed for 10 years)  the wife has the RV packed to the gills.................. She better not have tossed out my Simpson lol

5 hours ago, xctraveler said:

The critical item that I see is that having a decent VOM (Volt/Ohm Meter) and knowing how to use it may be the most important tool to carry

AMEN TO THAT 

   However, being "old school" ever since I scrimped and saved back in the early sixties to buy my first SIMPSON 260 ANALOG VOM (Also have a 270 and an RCA WV 38A) I love and find it so helpful and reliable and use it to this day. Of course and as would be expected, however, since then 'Ive owned a variety of more expensive Digital meters and like them but for different uses and reasons perhaps. Heck I still have several vacuum tube radios (Zenith, Crosley, Grunow, Hammarlund, Hallicrafters, Dyna Kit Stereo 70, Knight Kit Star Roamer) and love them also.

 Just call me old, old fashion and nostalgic, see if I care lol  

 John T

2 hours ago, Tcwndsr said:

The last thing I did was clean and tighten the ground and reseat the plug on the board, have had normal operation for two days in a row

Thanks for the feedback, TIME WILL TELL. Relative to your POSSIBLE FIX (poor or resistive connection) reminds me of a time I spoke to Dinosaur while I was troubleshooting whether a board was bad. I was asked what the voltage was at certain locations and I responded it looked okay and then was asked "How do you know that" to which I responded "my test light is bright" DID I GET AN EAR FULL LOL I was educated that I needed an accurate voltmeter as even a volt or two might be more critical then I imagined.  Sure one may think a wide voltage range (manuals may even indicate as such) should enable small low power electronics to still function, but according to Dinosaur when I spoke to them a loose or corroded or otherwise resistive connection (NOT just the board but anywhere in the heater circuit) can render the heater inoperable WELL DUH. That was the FIRST time I was told to polish the boards flat contact strips which in that particular situation DID cure the problem. That may or may not ever fix another board but it did that one.  If all your connections and grounds (I like that clean up of the ground perhaps that was the major cause ???) are now good but it fails again then its back to the drawing board, maybe try some or all of the suggestions above. The time may come when you're left with nothing other then a new board ??????

John T

"I tried some dielectric grease on the igniter connection but that didn't seem to make a difference."

That's NOT a place I would apply an insulating (dielectric) material between the mating surfaces

"I don't think  using the grease on the board connection and plug would be a good idea."

  I AGREE I would instead remove the flat ribbon connector and use a pencil eraser to lightly gently clean/buff/polish the flat copper looking strips on the board 

  "I also need to remove the ground screw and scrape down to bare metal"

 GOOD IDEA

 Have you tired a jumper wire to the boards HV Ignitor cable to 1/8 to metal to see if it sparks when the t stat calls for heat???? The ignitor tip cant fire unless the HV coil is sending it high voltage ?????????????

If the board connection is good and ignitor HV coil (on the board) is good and the ignitor tip is good and The board is getting sufficient voltage via the t stat and power input surE IT COULD BE THE BOARD

I have NEVER had a Dinosaur board go bad. CALL THEM WITH THE HEATERS MAKE MODEL AND SERIAL NUMBER and they can Tell you what board you need and also assist troubleshooting a board

 Some dealers have a unit that can test a board !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See if you can find such a dealer

 I would try the above then call Dinosaur

John T 

. Running out of ideas but hate to buy a new board if that's not the problem.

12 hours ago, Tcwndsr said:

 

Just to reinforce Kirk's EXCELLENT ADVICE, some time back I started a thread on here because my FURNACE wasn't lighting. I did some troubleshooting and found the HV ignitor coil itself was throwing a good HV spark (I used a little jumper cable)  so I cleaned and adjusted (I could NOT see any cracks or carbon traces)  the ignitor tip and gap and relocated it (the relocation seemed to really help the most) and she started working again, but shortly thereafter she stopped working again. Just to be prepared, I had gone to Flea Bay and purchased a whole new assembly, tip with ceramic insulator and new HV cable and installed it AND ITS WORKED PERFECT EVER SINCE. Moral of the story, an ignitor tip or the cable or insulator may look fine to the eye but still be bad. However I took it you ALREADY have a new ignitor ?????????? Hmmmmmmmm check the gap and location maybe and insure the HV coil itself is throwing a spark (maybe a jumper wire to 1/8 to metal if possible to jury rig such on your unit??)  They make that snap snap snap sound when firing, yours do that ??? but you can see the little sparky with your eye if she's firing. Were all trying our best to save you buying  a new board lol

 John T 

10 hours ago, Tcwndsr said:

Could the board be intermittently bad? I would think it either works or doesn't work. Any suggestions on what I could try from here? Thanks

 Sure, the board may be bad but that's like one of the more expensive fixes !!! Talk to Dinosaur Electronics if you can still talk to them about troubleshooting or one of their replacement units.

 FWIW Its been my experience that iffffffffffffff there's sufficient voltage getting TO the board via the switch and T stat and any limit switches and ifffffffffffffffff the boards flat ribbon connection is good n clean making good contact so the board gets sufficient voltage (Low voltage there can cause a problem) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and iffffffffffff the HV ignitor coil is good and throwing a good spark itself (test by unhooking wire to ceramic ignitor tip (if possible on your unit) and use a jumper wire with end 1/8 or so from metal to see if it is sparking),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT it lights intermittently:

 Possibilities are the ceramic ignitor tip itself  (may have small cracks or carbon traces) is bad and spark energy gets shorted. I see you replaced it (I assume the tip right?) so if its good and placed at the proper distance, check that its fairly critical  ????? it may be the cable to it or the HV ignitor coil

 The ceramic ignitor tip isn't located at the right distance or location

 Faulty HV ignitor cable

 Faulty board due to a solder break or crack or its electronics

 I have spent time on the phone with Dinosaur electronics (The President himself once and other times tech support) and I was surprised how bad low voltage or a resistive connection can cause problems.

I would take a good hard look at the ignitor tip and proper gap distance  and run any manual troubleshooting tips and insure the HV ignitor coil itself is throwing a good spark  and use an accurate volt meter to insure good board voltage 

NOTE Hot water heaters are NOT my cup o tea so I hope the other gents can add more possibilities and troubleshooting tips.. Once you have good voltage to the board and the HV coil and ignitor tip and its gap distance are all good, it may be the boards electronics or a bad solder joint or a crack BUT BEYOND THAT IM OUT TO LUNCH LOL

PS the fact it lights manually tells me the switch and T stat and any limits are good and the gas valve is opening, so I'm left with a board or HV ignitor coil or the tip or gap etc. 

PS I'm not sure if your heater and board and ignitor (separate or onboard the regular board???)  is configured or will even allow you to do the things I posted above ????????? if not I meant well lol

 Best I have to offer, see what the experts have to say

John T

Congrats Eddie and thanks for the feedback. Give a try to gently clean/polish up the boards flat copper looking contact strips like I mentioned before, and if that don't fix it or Toms good advice above regarding a possible bad solder joint (looks like you now obviously have POWER GETTING TO THE BOARD via the thermal and t stat we worried about previously) a new board may be in the works (Ive had good luck with Dinosaur replacement boards) , I try to carry a spare myself.  You're getting there fer sure.

 John T

1 hour ago, coachmac9 said:

oldjohnt, we are a little farther north than kirk (Lake Tawakoni) area, if you ever need anything while passing through let me know!

Thanks coachmac, It would be fun to visit you and Kirk. We base around Austin in Nov and December or so before heading to Florida but we may travel to Coleman Texas sometime which is in your direction. I wont know any final plans until SWMBO and my daughter tell me LOL

 John T

Will do when the time comes, Thanks

John T

1 hour ago, Kirk Wood said:

I don't recall you having mentioned this until recently so wasn't aware that you were one.  So did you work as an RV tech, or as management? My experience is in troubleshooting and repair.

Good evening Kirk, Actually (unfortunately) the vast majority of my work when I was an RV dealer was, like you, in troubleshooting and repair all the never ending issues encountered in dealing in USED RV's. It was up to meeeeeeeeeee to diagnose troubleshoot and repair a unit before offering it for retail. As an Electrical Engineer I was more comfortable dealing with electrical versus plumbing issues, but had to learn the hard way from experience how to fix the darn things grrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I was thinking back and actually its been 47+ years as a continuous RV owner and/or dealer, but these high dollar sleek units are beyond my ability, glad I'm retired now lol

 I will be visiting your great State in October, it would be a pleasure to visit, chit chat and sparky talk with you. Fun talkin with you as always.

Best wishes and God Bless Kirk

John T     

1 hour ago, coachmac9 said:

might there be a fuse blown that controls the 12 volts going to the water heater or do they usually not have a fuse??  

Mac, in my experience RV 12 VDC loads (lights, fans, furnace, water heater, fridge, water pumps, 12 volt appliances etc etc)  are fed from the 12 VDC distribution panel (served by the house battery) via fused branch circuits in order to provide overcurrent protection to prevent a fire, so yes Id expect a fuse in the circuit and that's the first place I look when there's an electrical problem. As the diagram above indicates, that 12 VDC source (likely fuse protected) has to jump through some hoops  (thermals, t stats, switches etc) BEFORE it can power up the circuit board.

 John T

2 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

Over 14 years (12 fulltime) in our last RV I replaced the water heater circuit board one time and the ignition probe 2 times. In 35 years of RV ownership and many times assisting friends with theirs I can recall using a circuit board 3 or 4 times and probably at least a dozen spark probes, several ECO assemblies, at least a dozen thermal fuses, one propane valve, and dozens of fuses

 Kirk, sounds familiar to my experiences as a used RV dealer and over 40 years an RV user.  I've seen more blown fuses or no board power present and faulty ignitor tips then I have bad circuit boards. If we were there armed with a volt meter or even a 12 volt test lamp we could help him. Of course sure boards go bad and it may be that UNLESS its NOT getting power, that's the $64,000 question lol

 Eddie, run out to wally world or any hardware or auto parts house and buy a 12 volt test lamp. The alligator clamp end goes to ground and you use the sharp tip end to probe for 12 volts causing the lamp to glow at 12 volts PIECE OF CAKE....per my above guidelines

 John T

 Eddie, still even a good circuit board needs power before it will work. As I noted I have had to replace the t stat UNDER THAT SMALL BLACK FOAM as shown in lenp's picture, and I have replaced the thermal fuse, EITHER OF WHICH can cause your problem. You will NEVER get that clicking gas valve operation until you have power getting TO a good working board via the thermal and t stat..........

A simple 12 volt DC tester with a light that glows upon 12 volts may find the problem. Attach the alligator clamp end to ground and probe with the sharp tip end to find 12 volts making the light glow.,,,,,,,,,,,,, Turn the unit on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,look at the diagram lenp posted and see if the light glows on BOTH sides of the thermal (if ON input but not out, its blown open and bad) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,then on BOTH sides of the T stat located under the black plastic foam (it should be closed until water is hot) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Then if power is on and there's 12 volts to and through the thermal, then to and through the t stat,  then to the boards input, the valve should click open and the ignitor tip throw a spark IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF the board is good...........

 Soooooooooooo before buying a new board insure its getting 12 volts which is via the remote switch,,,,,,,,,then to and through the thermal,,,,,,,,,,,,then to and through the t stat,,,,,,,,,,,,,then the boards 12 Volt input,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,then if the t stat is closed and the boards good the valve should click open and the ignitor throw its sparks until it times out if necessary and the valve closes again.

 This is fairly simple 12 volt test lamp or voltmeter testing Id try BEFORE buying a new board IT NEEDS POWER TO WORK

  As I referred to above, I was once on the phone with Dinosaur Electronics (manufacturers of circuit boards)  troubleshooting if I needed a new board or not, and they are the ones who told me to clean the boards ribbon connector strip contacts which cured a problem NO NEW BOARD REQUIRED..........If all the voltages test out Id still try that before deciding I needed a whole new board.

 Were all trying to save you some money hope it helps. 

 Keep us posted and post any more questions

John T

lenp, good catch. As we know, nuttins gonna happen until you get power TO THE BOARD

   Ive had MANY of those (thermal fuse type device) go open in all sorts of appliances like coffee makers or microwaves or hot water heaters. I've also had to replace the limit type switch or T Stat located under that black plastic foam that fits right up against the metal tank where shown by the arrow in the picture above. EITHER of those will be a cheaper fix then his control board

John T 

1 hour ago, crazie_eddie said:

Normally when I turn the heater on I hear a click and the burner firing up - now there's nothing

Eddie, yep that's (click) the gas solenoid valve opening  (following a short delay) then the ignitor tip snaps snaps snaps if a spark is jumping the ignitor tip gap and you fire up. If you get NOTHING and the board has sufficient input voltage ???? it may be a bad board or an open limit switch or a resistive connection or the remote switch is bad or no tellin what else lol. Ive had to replace several boards over the years but before spending those bucks Id FIRST try to run some troubleshooting if the manual outlines any steps.

 John T

  There have been times (I was a used RV dealer)  when I removed the flat ribbon connector on the circuit board then lightly and gently polished the boards flat copper looking strip contacts using a pencil eraser and that cured the problem. Of course, you need a good solid 12 volt connection getting power to the board itself. On many units (not sure of yours) to see if the igniter is throwing a high tension spark, I use a jumper wire attached to the output terminal, turn it on  (FIRST see if the gas valve is opening???  you can hear and feel it and also check for power getting to it) and then see if you get the tick tick tick spark spark spark out of the igniter. You may be able to visually see if its sparking without the jumper wire method, but I have seen it when the ignitor itself is working fine (via the jumper wire method) but the ceramic encased ignitor tip has a short or hairline crack or carbon trace so the energy get discharged (ignitor working) yet there's no spark to ignite the gas. I have seen them mis adjusted to the proper amount of spark gap also. BOTTOM LINE THE GAS VALVE HAS TO OPEN AND IGNITOR TIP HAS TO CREATE A SPARK.

 Many units I've experienced have a red light come on when you flip the switch, but it goes out once she lights.

  If there's good solid full 12 volts to the board and the gas valve opens but no igniting the ignitor may be bad. Since your lights are acting strange (don't see right to me on a good working board???)  if there's good voltage to the board but no gas valve opening nor a spark, the board may well be the problem

 There can also be limit switches that are open causing failure to light, I just recently had one of those cause a heater to fail.

 Its best to look at your manual but if you don't have one try this link and see if that helps

http://youmaydownloadthem.com/atwood-g6a-8e-manual/

John T  Long retired electrical engineer and past RV dealer but rusty on this stuff so no warranty lol

Yeppers, I agree 100%  Indeed the problem is a teeny tiny 0.001 amp leak here, another teeny tiny 0.001 amp leak there, and its only 6 of those before 6 milliamps flowing OUT the hot aren't being returned by the Neutral but elsewhere SO THE GFCI DOES ITS JOB AND TRIPS.

 Your systematic approach has done a good job, you may be as electrical safety minded as I am AND THATS SAYING SOMETHING LOL...........  As you say "it never hurts to check"

Congrats

John T

Gee Dune that's sure a lot of NO TRIPS, how about the vacuum cleaner??? Id venture a guess if two of those high current draws were BOTH on at the same time then you may get her to trip????????? Heck you may have fixed it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If not it sounds like you know what you're doing to systematically isolate and find the offender...........

Continued good luck

John T

Dune, I was kidding up above about the microwave and vacuum but actually (as you noted per the articles) a high current or sudden surge appliance,  especially inductive, can cause GFCI's to have fits lol. If you only have say one smooth steady amp going out to the load and having to return that's one thing, but a high surge inductive start up load may pass 20 amps momentarily which is a lot more to return and perhaps some/more current finds an alternate path ?????????? NO WARRANTY ON THAT ITS ONLY A THOUGHT.  Still as Kirk rightly noted a GFCI is NOT a current limiting device, it simply measures current out and return current to see if they are near equal, but if not its flowing in a fault path so she trips AS ITS DESIGNED TO DO.

John T

18 minutes ago, DuneElliot said:

GFCI in the garage tripped when I plugged the vaccuum cleaner into the other GFCI outlet on the same circuit in the garage and then turned it on. Same thing happened with the microwave.

Gee Dune, PIECE OF CAKE just don't use the dern vacuum or microwave problem solved LOL 

John T  with tongue in cheek

Thanks Dune, unfortunately this may be hard to diagnose over the net and not much better if there lol. I think above there's a good step by step procedure and in a nut shell what you have to do is have every breaker OFF in the RV, plug up the cord to the house, one at a time flip RV breakers on and see which one trips the GFCI. Looks like you already have the hot water off and that's always a prime suspect. Things such as too long cords, some light fixtures like fluorescent, maybe a microwave oven, rooftop AC, 120 VAC compressor fridge if you had one,  and then branch circuits inside the RV which connect to its outdoor receptacles can be problematic. Its also possible a GFCI  just goes bad and trips too easy, its just hard to say what's your problem, but the MOST SERIOUS situation is if there's any sort of a "hot skin" condition and if that's the case the GFCI is doing its job so be thankful. I hope the home wiring is correct?? You have one of those plug in analyzers that looks for cross wired or open grounds or open neutrals etc  ??? Maybe plug the RV into a different GFCI and see what happens

Sorry I'm about run out lol but I suspect outdoor receptacles or the microwave perhaps??? assuming its NOT the fault of the homes GFCI and the RV has no other problems.

John T 

Dune, forgive me but I'm just unsure which and where that tripping GFCI is located?? Is it one in your home or garage you're plugging the RV into orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr a GFCI breaker in the homes panel orrrrrrrrrrr is it one in the RV itself ???

John T

3 hours ago, DuneElliot said:

I agree. It doesn't trip the GFCI until I turn what I now assume to be the heater element switch "On". If that switch is "Off" and I flip the WH breaker it doesn't trip the GFCI.

Dune, CONGRATULATIONS you done good. What you say complies with my suspicions noted above that if the electric heating element was essentially OUT OF THE CIRCUIT by unhooking it as I suggested (I didnt know it had that switch) or just turning it OFF as you did, and then all is well, THE GF LEAK MUST BE IN THE ELECTRIC HEATING ELEMENT which is certainly a possibility and can easily happen.

Its no surprise if 120 VAC power to the heater was OFF or if the 120 volt switch on the heater is OFF it still works on propane because 1) You need it to work when dry camping with no shore power and 2) The LP Gas system operates on 12 volts DC with no 120 VAC required.  

Best wishes its good to get feedback

John T

4 minutes ago, DuneElliot said:

that mentions about not dry-firing an electric heating element...so, without knowing for sure, I may have an electric heating element in there I didnt know about which is causing the GFCI tripping problem.

AHHHHHHHHH HAHHHHHHHHHHHH thanks for the new info I found AFTER my post above.

Its not good to use an electric heating element with no water in the tank WELL DUH

I'm back to my post above now. I would disconnect and safely remove and cap off the 120 VAC to the hot water heater and then see if the GFCI still trips ?????????? If not it must be caused by a bad (electrical leaking) heating element. If unhooked the GFCI doesnt trip and you don't ever plan to run the heater on 120 volts just eliminate the 120 volt problem and run on LP gas. Minerals and calcium etc can cause enough current leakage (ONLY 5 to 6 milliamps) in an elec water heater to trip a GFC|

John T 

John T