Vladimir

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

And an honest answer, not necessarily a PC one.

You had lots of questions...so will try to answer them below.

And an honest answer, not necessarily a PC one. It seems that nowadays, anyone who drives into a place that they should have known better than go, then blames it on their GPS.

As I understand it......GPS was developed by the Defense Department to guide cruise missiles into their targets.  The Defense Department "fuzzed" the data, particularly the elevation data so other countries could NOT use our GPS system to attack us. 

That's it.  GPS will give you lat and long, and elevation.  That is the information that BIG TECH is pulling from the US government satellites.  The rest of it comes from primarily PUBLIC US government, state, and local databases.  I understand some mapping companies do check and update mapping on their own....primarily in urban areas.

It isn't just older people who do that either. I have looked at 2 different GPS, Apple maps and Google maps to route between Reno & Las Vegas and none of those routes get anywhere near the location that their RV was found. If we assume that their GPS did direct them to take that road, I would like to know a lot more about the GPS involved.

The route is dependent on the parameter the user sets in the GPS.  In this case, probably fastest route or shortest route.  I suspect these folks selected shortest route.  

It does matter "WHEN" you select the route.  It will change as you move closer to your destination.  On my GPS I generally, just let it say recalibrating and then finally it sync's again with my paper map.

It does NOT matter which GPS unit is involved.  IT MATTERS which government maps they are using and the date of the mapping, plus the purpose.

What make/model was it? Were the maps and firmware kept current?

See above answer.  The firmware and maps updates ONLY MATTER if the GPS company UPDATED THEIR MAPS.

Was the GPS working properly?

I have NEVER had a GPS unit malfunction.  They either work or they don't.

There are too many unanswered questions for any conclusion to be drawn. Since the driver is now deceased, do you really believe that his wife would tell us if she knew that it was him doing something very foolish?

I don't think he did anything "foolish".  He made some bad choices, actually several that compounded into the tragedy.  

Quite frankly, she only knows part of the bad choices they made.

I think not and I would not expect her to do so. She just lost her husband and she sure doesn't want to remember him in any negative way. I highly doubt that anyone will do a serious investigation of this like is done with aircraft accidents, but it would be the only way to reliably know the details of how this came to happen. I wonder just as much as the next person, but really do not expect to ever know. 

I am NOT even sure WHO has jurisdiction to investigate "multiple GPS" incidents??   Apple, Google, Garmin and a host of others cover themselves with lawyer talk and the ability to fund a SERIOUS defense in court.

What I would like to see.

Full disclosure of the databases that the GPS uses and their dates and sources.  To make it functional, I would like to point at a road and have it return the database information used.....for example.  US Census Tiger file, data last checked 1980, updated 2000.  

If I a traveling on a Forest Service or BLM road, well that tells me a LOT about the reliability of the road information.

It is an interesting question.  Given the reliance on Apple, Google and other GPS systems should somebody be doing a review of the mapping??  It was a major issue in Australia a few years ago with Apple mapping.

BIG TECH is pretty much unregulated in this country.  Maybe it is time to change that and start making them responsible for their improving the quality of their product.

Right now ALL THEY ARE DOING is taking government databases and writing software to display the Global Positioning Satellite data onto the government databases.  PERIOD.

I don't think, outside the urban areas, they do any quality control or review of the databases.  I suspect, THEY DON'T even know what information and databases are in their products.  

Their profit, is in free data and information packaged with their computer displays running their software.  

It is very expensive to validate data, they don't do it, except in urban areas as noted.

23 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

 

.....................The moral of this story;  USA GPS units are not accurate in North Central Canada..

 

The Canadian government SELLS their map information to private companies.  The US Government map information is ALL in the public domain.  Wanna guess why US GPS units are better??

Knowing that I waited until Kamloops to buy a Canadian GPS unit.  It was awful.  HUGE LAKES, were not on the GPS.  Roads were just a total hit and miss.   The good news is that GPS leaves a breadcrumb trail, and I could get lat and long to several decimal points to locate myself on a paper map.

Besides if I got stranded and had to hike out, I would have the lat and long to give to the tow truck guy!!!

19 hours ago, Danfreda1 said:

Don’t you people have anything better to do than bash someone that made a mistake. It cost them enough now SOME of you won’t stop the I can’t believe someone would do this or I can’t believe it was the gps fault or no common sense. You have no idea if the family is on here and you just keep going on about it. When is it enough? Hope fully none of you ever make a mistake that cost someone their life, but it sounds to me like most of you don’t make mistakes. 

Everybody makes mistakes.  

I was at a Forest Service meeting on fatalities that happened on recent forest fire.  One of the presenters asked the question "Are you good or just lucky".  

He asked everybody to make a list of "personal" near fatalities.  You don't want to see my list.  I walked away from all of them, but several times came within literally inches of killing myself in the middle of somewhere.

The Forest Service does a intensive review of all fatalities of its employees.

I view this thread in the same vein.  A learning experience, so that it lowers the odds for me and other folks reading the thread.

It might be helpful to start a NEW THREAD, on things NEVER to do when traveling on public lands.   

For example, I would NEVER drive a dirt road in the dark for the first time IF I could avoid it.  I have a vacation rental located on a dirt road.  I keep telling people, get here before DARK.  Yeah, want to know how times I have gone out looking for LOST guests.  This is on a simple road, you really have to work at it to get lost.

Nobody is bashing them, but I think everybody wants to understand what mistakes they made.

2 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

From my experience, when night lows stay above 27°F and day highs reach 50°F, an outside unheated RV plumbing will not freeze solid enough to cause damage.

In the ball park.

I froze up in a tent trailer, egg trailer, and a 31 foot 5th wheel at 25 degrees like clockwork.

Daytime temperatures are important.  IF it is cold during the day you can easily freeze up at 29 degrees.

1 hour ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

Yeah, I think you are right.  I'd go down it if I was turning at a sign pointing to my intended campground or camping area a mile or so that-a-way.   However, if I had Las Vegas punched in the GPS I wouldn't mistake it for the route there.  

I drove to Sun Valley for 70 miles on Forest Service DIRT backroads. 

Not sure if I was using a GPS in those days or not, but today it would have been in my GPS.  That is what I wanted to do, to see the hot springs along the route as I had all day to get to my destination. 

Granted, I would be more than prepared to ignore it.

One advantage to using a GPS on backroads is that it leaves a breadcrumb trail for the route OUT.

1 hour ago, Lou Schneider said:

At 10 o'clock at night in an unfamiliar area?

Good point, I would have been camped at least six hours previously. 

Poor judgement.  You don't want to drive unfamilar dirt roads in the dark, unless you have to do it!!!

1 hour ago, 2gypsies said:

Maybe I'm not understanding you but we used Delorme's mapping program and it showed forest and BLM roads when we were 4-wheeling.  Our handheld Garmin was used on forest service lands when geocaching.

The Delorme's maps used the Tiger files from the Census.  That I do know.  

They do show Forest Service and BLM roads, but THAT was NOT the primary purpose of the map.  The information sown therefore, might not be suitable for navigation on Forest Service and BLM roads.

Try this link:  https://www.avenza.com/avenza-maps/

The Forest Service entered into an agreement with them.  They post plenty of FREE Forest Service maps and well as sell digital copies of Forest Service and BLM recreation maps.

I have used them on fires.  The Fire Teams would upload the fire maps through them.  You won't have access to the fire maps,  but if traveling the backroads this is a really handy information source for maps.

Your really want to Forest Service "fireman's" maps or the Travel Plan maps or whatever they call them these days.  I do know avenza has the travel plan maps on their web site for free.

On 4/9/2022 at 11:48 AM, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

There's a good chance that the road in the photo is the one they turned down.  If not, it would be one like it.  Honestly, had I tried to take our rig down a road like that I would have faced a mutiny in the passenger seat unless there was a campground or at least other RVs in plain sight.  Again, just trying to understand the "they followed the GPS" explanation.  

With just that picture....I would go down that road and probably most people on this forum.

There is NOTHING wrong with that road at THIS POINT.  In fact, it looks really good like it might go through those hills off in the distance.

Several things that would concern me is that as roads leave pavement, they get worse not better. The one exception is the Clearwater National Forest in Idaho, but that is a different story.

A major thru route even on dirt or gravel roads would show MORE traffic impacts to the road than the picture shows.

I would have stopped at this point and reassesed. 

BUT, hey maybe that Forestry degree and 50 years of work experience did teach me something.

Last gripe and I don't know if it came up in this case.

Apple decided to drop the decimal format for lat and long on their cell phones.

First responders appealed to Apple to reinstate the decimal format since EVERYBODY in the first responder field uses it and it is pretty much the default.  It is also much simpler than degrees, minutes, and seconds format.

APPLE REFUSED.

Not sure if she had a IPHONE or an Android phone.  Not sure if she knew the difference between decimal format and degrees, minutes and seconds.

But it is a pain using an IPHONE.

I have no clue why APPLE refuses to display decimal format for lat and long for their phones.

22 hours ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

I'll mention that my feelings about it being a GPS error are influenced by the location of the car.  Reports are that she had sent a text asking for help.  Unfortunately, the text wasn't sent until she was rescued and the phone found a cell tower.  Her text was coordinates and the word "help."  I looked up the coordinates and tried to figure out how a GPS could direct someone to that area.  Again, I don't now what kind of GPS they were using, but Google Maps will only direct me to that spot if I put the actual coordinates of that spot as the destination.  It never includes that road otherwise.  The coordinates are: 37.757753, -117.809568 - check it out to see where the car was.

Lots of comments.

GPS maps are "data".  They are NOT reality.  Just data that the various companies gathered from government databases and included them in THEIR GPS maps.

For example, GPS companies for years used the Census Tiger files as a base layer in their maps.  The Census is very interested in roads with HOUSES.  The purpose of the Census is to count people that in most cases live in houses.  Tiger files are fine, IF there are homes in the area.  Oh, new roads, well those are an adventure since most temporary Census employees are clueless when it comes to maps.  But they are the ones that MAP the new roads.

County GIS databases are also "pirated" by the GPS companies.  The Counties don't make the maps for GPS use, they make them for THEIR purposes.  Counties don't need a map of their roads, except as a filing tool for the attribute database. 

GPS companies sometimes use the attributes, and sometimes they do not.

In Washington state, county roads even if impassable are never dropped from the roads database.  The state of Washington pays the counties for miles of county roads.  Every year, I stop a couple of folks religiously following their GPS thinking they were on a GREAT shortcut.  Except the road is impassable and has been for decades.  Traveling in California, I found that at county lines, the speed limit disappeared and appeared based on county lines!!!  

I have NOT found a GPS company that has used the Forest Service or BLM roads layer.  The Forest Service for years had internal "fire maps" that showed ALL roads, helispots, etc. etc. complete with road numbers.  They were so popular that the Forest Service started selling them to the public, and then decided to make Ranger District maps from the firemans maps.  The first thing, the Ranger Districts, wanted to delete a few roads that they not want the public accessing.  Right, now you have a PARTIAL road map.

You get the drift.  Maps are made for specific purposes.  NOBODY makes a map for RV's traveling the public lands.  BTW, the Forest Service recreation maps ONLY show where the Forest Service thinks and wants you to visit!!

When I was working I always told people that "they had the right to kill themselves on the public lands, and remember call the County Sheriff, not the Forest Service.  The Sheriff has the authority to handle it."

I LOVE my GPS. 

I still have my treasure trove of public lands maps.  I know where I am going on a paper map, and then when the GPS says go here instead, well I usually ignore it.  Because for the reasons above, the GPS is usually wrong from a variety of perspectives.

The good news is the GPS really isn't that BAD, given the millions of people using it and how few serious incidents of people dying we have as a result.

The bad news, artificial intelligence, well it is based on databases created for OTHER purposes just like GPS.  

What could go wrong??

I remember the phrase "don't trust anybody over 30".  

Hmmm, maybe time to replace that with "don't trust a computer output".

On 3/26/2022 at 12:02 AM, RV_ said:

Bill, that's true in just Phoenix I believe. Waymo still relies on intricate mapping and shuns foul weather. I believe they are also the only one to kill a pedestrian crossing in front of one.........................

 

Not a fan of Google, nor Tesla.......BUT in the interest of truth....the pedestrian was killed by Uber.

It wasn't the bite that impressed me.  Since there was no evidence of a bite, thought I suspect it is significant!!

The bear took his claws and PUNCTURED the canned ham can.  With his CLAWS. 

Go ahead try puncturing a canned ham can.  Try it with a hammer and nail.....the bear was just using his claw!!!

Then the bear having punctured the can took his claws and forearms and OPENED the canned ham.  PEELED it back until he/she was able to get at the ham.

Ok now try peeling back the canned ham can once the nail is in the can.  But it is a lot of fun!!  Can you do it??

From the looks of the can, no problem peeling it back for the bear.

Then they ate it.  That is where the bite comes in.....but the claw stuff,

THAT REALLY IMPRESSED ME.

1 hour ago, rickeieio said:

Wise words Kirk.  There seems the emotion/fact ratio gets askew in times like this.  The pricing structure is more complicated than most folks realize.  The mechanics of drilling/pumping/distillation/etc are also far beyond what's been thrown about here.

Like everything else in life, people tend to complain the most about the things they understand the least.  And yes, I've been guilty too.

Complaining is good, particularly in Republics.  It provides a feedback loop to the politicians from the unwashed masses!!

As a government employee I always read the complaint letters.  I learned a lot from those letters.

The problem is not the American people.  

The problem is American journalism and the lack of science and basic economic education in the United States.

I actually looked up the educational requirements for a journalism degree for a few well known institutions.  NO science classes, no economics classes, no history classes, but there was one political science class required!!   Couple that with the lack of science education in America and you have the equivalent of the blind talking to deaf, while the deaf using sign language to communicate with the blind.

Which explains why there is so much controversy today.  The less you know about a subject, the more adament you state your position, whereas a subject matter expert will become a LESS forceful when they know less about a subject.

Those with less knowledge get to be known as EXPERTS by the media, because they get  "clicks".  The people that really know about a subject, just take a pass.

Take a look at the science experts being interviewed today.  They are young immigrants mostly.  It is very difficult for young immigrants to become part of the Elites and power structure in this country, particularly with a science degree.

It was about 40-50 years ago when we had a couple of engineers as Governors in Washington state.  Today, it is all lawyers.    Any guess why Washington state is such a mess today??  

I don't know what to say about the journalism short-fall, that is probably unfixable.  

The second one is easily fixable.  Start voting for smart people regardless of their politics!!!!

BUT, DO complain every chance you get.  Do it with good humor if possible.  

Every once in a while, when you find folks doing a good job, tell them and their boss.  It does make a huge difference.

6 minutes ago, pjstough said:

But you didnt mention how we got here. From November 2019 to August 2020 the number of oil drilling rigs operating in the USA dropped by over 700 from about 880 in November 2019 to only about 150 in August 2020. You cant produce oil if you are not drilling for it.
Fortunately, the number if oil drilling rigs in the USA is back up over 500 and climbing, but just not fast enough as oil companies are returning much of the new huge profits to shareholders in the form of dividends instead of drilling for more oil.

Yes, I did....the pandemic dropped drilling, just like the next recession will again. 

It appears that the new drilling rigs are frackers and small time operators.  That will help, but I doubt it will make up for the drop in big oil exploration.

BTW...economists really need to change the definition of a recession.  Two quarterly declines in GDP is so yesterday.  We are STILL recovering from the pandemic recession, more than 1.6 MILLION jobs still missing.  The difference was that during the "pandemic recession" government poured money into the economy, particularly middle class Americans, which NEVER done in previous recessions.

The oil companies are NOT returning the "new huge profits" to shareholders at this time.  The BP dividend was cut in HALF during the pandemic.  It has not been raised since them.  

My biggest regret was not selling BP when it peaked at 70.  Twenty years later it is selling at 30.  So much for oil company profits!!!

13 minutes ago, Dutch_12078 said:

Do I think gas prices are going down anytime soon? Well, here in Georgia I've watched gas prices go down about $0.75/gal in just the past week. Long term? Anyone's guess...

Short-term....release oil from the reserve, yeah prices will come down.  At some point, that doesn't work anymore.

Medium-term.....my guess we are headed for a severe recession.  Just like during the pandemic that will bring down oil prices.  Every recession brings down oil prices.

Long-term........my guess is prices are headed much, much higher.   HALF the Wall Street banks have said they WILL NOT lend to oil and gas companies.  University and lots of stock fund managers are saying for "moral" reasons they will NOT invest in oil and gas stocks.  The you have current administration politics.  Then you have oil and gas companies shifting THEIR investments into green energy projects.

WOW....that means MUCH, MUCH higher prices for gas and diesel in the near future.  

Not selling our BP stock, but I do wish they would invest more in oil and gas exploration than charging stations for EV's.

On 3/17/2022 at 5:13 PM, Dutch_12078 said:

Does that mean you don't believe Ford, GM, etc, mean it when they say they're committing billions of dollars with the goal of going all electric in the next decade or so? Ford can't keep up with the orders for it's F-150 EV pickup and is building new plants for manufacturing battery and other EV parts. GM has committed to going all EV by 2035.

Yep, don't believe a thing they say.

It DOESN"T matter to them, they shift priorities time and time again, based primarily on fads and poltics.

My wife got shares of Ammco when her grandfather died.  He was a steamfitter for the company.

It was in the 1990's and we kept the shares.  

Back in the 1990's British Petroleum bought Ammco and changed their name to BP (Beyond Petroleum).  I bought solar panels made by BP in Maryland in the late 1990's.  They are still working on my off-grid house.

BP after a few years decided that solar panels were NOT the future.  They closed the business.

Last year, BP decided that GREEN is the future and are buying solar panel businesses and other green businesses.....again.  

They are taking their profits in oil and gas and investing in a GREEN future, instead of oil and gas.  Hmmm, think your gas prices are going down anytime soon if the major oil companies are going GREEN and significantly reducing their drilling for oil and gas??

I believe GM has been bailed out three or four times by the Federal government for bad business decisions.  I suspect there is a future bailout coming......well, maybe this time IT IS DIFFERENT.  Nah....same story, different time.

On 3/31/2022 at 7:19 AM, dennisvr said:

I was thinking the same thing about my smoker.  I'm volunteering at the Tallac site in Tahoe this summer for a month and glad its got bear boxes that my smoker will fit into.  Last time I was in Tahoe I seen a bear ripe a hole in a garage door big enough for it to fit into with little effort.  I could just imagine what it would do to a compartment door.

Back in the early 1970's I was working in the backcountry of Sequoia National Park.

I came back into camp one day and the cook said some hikers had stolen the very large canned ham we were going to have for dinner ( fed 15 people).

Didn't think much about it, until a month or so later I found the canned ham.....can.  

The black bear used his claws to puncture the ham can and then PEELED it open.  Yep, he/she didn't bother using the handy key to open the can!!

For the mechanical engineers out there....how much FORCE does it take to peel open a large canned ham can?? 

In my entire professional career, I had ONE black bear almost run me over.

Nope, didn't have bear spray, nor a side arm.  

All that said, I barely had enough time to SCREAM as the closed to within 10 feet of me.

For all the gun folks, the Forest Service does have a research publication on "stopping" a  bear.

Search " Safety in bear country: protective measures and bullet performance at short range".

I only carry firearms while hunting.

I do carry bear spray in bear country, and it is at the front door of my RV.  Quite frankly, I don't expect to be using it on bear anytime soon.

BUT, if you hike in bear country, make sure it is on your belt and you can undo and FIRE the bear spray real quick.  Take a expired cannister, and practice with it.

Or you can resort to SCREAMING in terror as the bear closes in on you.   Worked for me.

Thanks...not to worried about snow, but 4 degrees at night will freeze up the trailer.

I do have a copy of Days End Directory, but have not used it.  Traveling alone, I find I spend a LOT of time with the directory.  Just found it easier to find a place on my own.  

I do need to convert the Directory into a POI on the GPS.

I am heading north in the next week and thinking about taking Highways 376 and 305 in Nevada and then connecting with Highway 95 to get to Idaho.

Anybody have ideas on what I might encounter on those roads this time of year.  It does look like diesel will be limited along the route.  It was FOUR degrees overnight in Ely a week ago.  Looks like this route might have a couple of hills just as high.

Thanks in advance....oh, any camping or overnight stops along the route would also be appreciated.

Vladimir

1 hour ago, Zulu said:

FIFO ensures Locals get camp sites. State/national campgrounds are tuned into city parks.

BTW, the way to game the "you must show up" rule is to just park your boat/camper on site before the weekend, leave, and then come back for Sat/Sun.

Physical presence doesn't work either.

The Forest Service did not have the authority to close roads to the National Forests until the folks from Seattle could arrive to their "rightful" place in line.  BUT, rural folks cannot do the same for urban amenities!!

No parking your boat/camper or TENT does NOT work.  You have to be there physically present, otherwise your ticketed and towed.

BTW...the locals did discover through the 90's that they could camp on NF managed land throughout the entire summer and drive to work everyday.  That led to the Forest Service writing down license plates and once the 23 days were done....a ticket got written.  AND that was the end of camping on NF managed land for the rest of the year!!

It did help when a FS employee was kidnapped and raped on a Oregon forest.  They found the guy with a license plate match records of dispersed camping sites.

The real message is that for years, and years the public was fair and honest and the Forest Service management was minimal.  

These days we have an "urban, me first" value system for many of our users on public lands.  

AND with that attitude comes regulations and tickets.

1 hour ago, hemsteadc said:

I've seen that myself and wondered if the reservation system was functioning properly.  Just yesterday a maintenance worker at a FCFS Lake Mead campground told me to "reserve" a site by pitching a cheap tent a few days ahead of my actual arrival time.  I don't like gaming the system and would never do that - because I hate when others do it.

As someone that was on the OTHER side managing the campgrounds to this day I still curse the name "Al Gore" that foisted the REC.GOV disaster onto the Federal land management agencies.

Yep, that was a common strategy.  We were a popular destination National Forest just over from the ridge from Seattle. 

Got the money, reserve a site for days in advance and don't show up until the weekend.  Your paying for it, but NOBODY can use it!!!

Got the time, come on up and throw a tent on the space and show up three days later.   Your paying for it, but NOBODY can use it!!!!

So we said, you reserve the site....be there the first night or we are cancelling and taking your tent to lost and found.

No matter what system you use....humans are going to GAME the system. 

In the end, the ONLY fair one is first-come, first-served....and you have to COME and show up.

Not sure about that.

There is LOTS more MONEY floating around than I remember when I was working!!!

I just paid $5.90 a gallon in California.  The traffic was unbearable coming down I-5.

Canada is pushing $8.00 a gallon.  

My guess is people will pull back in other places, but continue to travel locally.  Next year, might be different if international travel becomes "safe".  

In that case, there are going to be some great deals in RV's, not to mention camping spots.

Due to COVID I have limited my travel the past two years.   But it did seem more crowded, much more crowded than the previous years.

I just completed a 1200 mile trip down to Arizona.

Some observations....

County Park in Eugene, Oregon.  

Normally, pretty empty, but this trip pretty much booked solid.  Price was $45/night.

COE campground in California.

Normally, I am the only person camped there.  This time, over half the campsites were taken.  NO onsite service, you must reserve through REC.GOV for the night.  Lots of road rage on that issue from campers.

Orange Grove, Bakerfield, California

Booked totally solid.  In overflow, for $49 a night.  One of the best managed RV parks.  Where else do you get put into overflow for $49 and feel good about it??  Oranges were past prime, but still much better than store bought.

BLM lands outside of Parker, Caliornia or Arizona.

Almost all "dispersed sites" taken.   Pretty crowded for BLM lands.

SKP Park in Arizona.

Almost all lease holder lots are booked, but plenty of room in dry camp.

So it seems, that campsites are much, much more limited this winter.  EXCEPT for the Escapees Campgrounds.  This seems to indicate that NEWBIES are flooding the market.  The SKP park did say with COVID lots of folks bailed to be closer to their kids.

Oh....diesel prices on I-5 and I-40 at $5.90 a gallon in California.  $3.93 in Arizona.

Just a comment.

As a former "green card holder",  being a US citizen gives you the right to vote and a US Passport to travel.  That's pretty much it.

As a "green card holder", if your young enough, you are eligible for the draft.  You pretty much have the SAME OBILIGATIONS as a US citizen.  Pretty much the same benefits as citizens, except for the right to vote and the passport.

IF your in the country on a temporary VISA, that is a whole different issue.  Never been there or done that.

BUT those laws might be different.

I know that most people do not pay attention to STATUS, anymore, but the laws were written that way.  It might matter and then again it might not.

Anyway, your STATUS in the US is important for the things you can or cannot do.  

The good news, is that you can do LOTS of things in the US, that you cannot do in other countries no matter what your status.

15 hours ago, trailertraveler said:

I am intrigued by pictograms and petroglyphs. I envision an ancient artist or teenage graffiti artist working for hours to create their masterpiece(s). Often on the side of sheer rock faces well above the round. The images depict the activities of their lives or conjure up speculation of extraterrestrial encounters. One of my favorites appears to depict an individual in a sleigh pulled by reindeer. This in the American dessert Southwest.  There are so many amazing sites on public lands. 

I assume you have found Grapevine Canyon off the Christmas Tree Pass road in the Lake Mead National Recreational Area.

As a Federal employee when I was working......I told all the "secret" places to anybody that would ask.

They were paying my salary.