Johnxhc
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Posts posted by Johnxhc
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No, The coach does not come with inverter/charger, I understand when using the inverter, I just won't able to use 50 amps , even if I could with two inverters, I probably need double my battery bank (right now is 600 ah)
I have two A/Cs, I guess I could just power one A/C in case I need it and just use half of the panel (the one side with most outlets), if I really feel inconvenient, I will install a new subpanel late on and move most of used outlets there.
Thank you all for your help.
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Unfortunately there is no more budget for another $1,200 inverter/charger at the moment 🙁
Matt from Continuous Resource came up with a very smart idea:
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Got Victron Inverter/Charger(Victron Energy MultiPlus 24/3000/70-50 Inverter with Charger )
Just realized it only has one hot, but I have 50 amps panel on my RV!
now what? the shore line & generator input goes to a transfer case, and the output of transfer case suppose to go to inverter, but the inverter only has one hot, what do I do???
Please advise.
Thank you!
John
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On 9/7/2020 at 4:35 PM, jcussen said:
Yes, would not worry too much about surge, that will probably be less than a second. I size for the normal full output of the inverter, but bare in mind you will seldom be running at full output of inverter. I have a lot of gear in my coach, and seldom draw more than 2000 watts off my 3000 watt inverter.
I use this chart for sizing wire.
Thank you.
Just received my batteries ::)
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24 minutes ago, GlennWest said:
Amps at your voltage is what you base wire size on, not wattage
is Amps = wattage / voltgage(12v) ?
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1 hour ago, oldjohnt said:
Hey John it don't sound so bad given your new information. Hey its YOUR RV and YOUR choice so if it suits you it suits me lol
Given my voltage drop figures above and also the fact you will seldom if ever draw anywhere near 250 amps for any time, I don't see a problem if your Inverter were 12 feet from your battery bank using 4/0 cables HOWEVER if you have a better place now fine. Also if in a compartment where its heated to any extent at all you wont have the low temperature Lithium concerns, but be sure you provide adequate ventilation to dissipate all the heat !!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course provide catastrophic over current protection for those huge cables and high current capacity
keep us posted, fun project
John T
Hi,John,
The Victron Inverter/Charge has 2,400w but peak power is 6,000w, when I select wire (I assume it is 4 gauge?) should I consider the 6,000w peak power?
Right now in the battery compartment, it is ventilated, as you can see from the picture
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNW6BntUo7ozNFKNZw15e1u-B3cFs_uv-RK778y
Actually I was just worry too much ventilation , lol. there are a area 6.5" x 37" area is open to outside, but reading your post, I looked at it again, after I stack up 6 batteries there , it will pretty much cover close the open area.
I guess I can open some holes in the bottom of the compartment, but question is will all the fuses, breaker, MTTP charge controller has any problem with potential moisture , hot, dust get in the area?
Please advise.
Thanks.
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Great! so I will put Inverter/charge in new location, where do guys guys think is the best location I should put it?
1) The washer/Dryer compartment
2) Driver side compartment?
Should I leave the battery at the same compartment? ( that compartment is half open for the acid batteries)
that means I need to seal the battery compartment? how do I do that? with plywood?
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2 hours ago, oldjohnt said:
PS I DO NOT like the idea of the panel protruding over the edge any at all
John T
The problem is the solar panel I am looking at it is 39" and I only have 36" space, but if you look at
I have a whole wall slide 28' long slide on the driver side (where I want to install solar panel) and the is a 4" awning protrude over the edge, Also on passenger side, there is big awning also the same that's why I am thinking it may be ok
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On 9/3/2020 at 2:34 PM, oldjohnt said:
All the talk about DC to DC Conversion, battery voltage choices, energy, components and other decisions brings me back to the basic concepts I learned when practicing engineering.
THERES NO FREE LUNCH,,,,,,,,When deciding on RV electrical energy options such as voltages and conversions and solar and inverters etc etc there are ENGINEERING TRADE OFFS required.
1) There are obvious advantages of higher battery voltage but then you need a DC to DC Converter to supply the typical 12 VDC RV loads.
2) Neither Chargers or Controllers or Inverters etc etc are 100% efficient. There's always I Squared R heat energy losses anytime you have to convert THAT GOES WITH THE TERRITORY its a law of physics lol One thing is for those with HUGE Inverter loads, say 3000 watts or more THATS WHERE 24 OR 48 BATTERY VOLTS REALLY SHINES. Consider 3000 watts at 12 volts that's a whopping 250 amps out of the battery, compared with ONLY 62.5 if it were a 48 volt battery. Now having to use a 48 to 12 DC to DC converter don't sound bad even if not 100% efficient !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! who gives a hoot right lol
3) If one wants to be strict you have to compute all the costs and heat energy losses and any necessary conversions and put it all in a calculator and crank out the best results HOWEVER there's the other side where personal preferences and budget might make it such that THERES NO NECESSARY RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER. Just because an engineer like those of us here may choose one method (and perhaps it is best engineering wise) DOES NOT MEAN OTHERS ARE OBLIGATED TO DO THE SAME.
Back to Johns choice of a 12 Volt Battery bank, 1300 solar watts, and a 2400 Watt Inverter HEY THATS REASONABLE ENGINEERING WISE. It may not be the best,,,,,,,,,,, it may not be the worst,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it may or may not be the same an engineer would choose,,,,,,,it may or may not be what others here may choose, BUT ITS JOHNS CHOICE of which I was glad to help in any way I could.
WOW what a fun and deep technical discussion, thanks to all who took part, I truly enjoyed it and hope we helped John
John T BSEE,JD Retired EE and one happy camper
Sorry I did not get a chance reading the thread in last two days.
Hi,John,
Yes I am 51 years young ::) thinking if I sell my gas RV for a diesel in the future I can easily move the lithium battery out if I can's get my battery money back.
Thank all of your for the help, I have not bought anything else yet (except the lithium batteries), since your guys are so helpful, I would like to get your blessing on my design (I am not 100% sure about yet).
1) I am thinking about put 4x 310w solar panel on the driver side (my only option because the layout of the roof on the passengers) and the size of the 310w panel, the panel will be over the edge of of the RV wall by 3-4", hopefully this is not going to be a big issue.
I am think put unistrut channel first and put solar panel on top of it, get my idea from
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY98-WQ0VTw&ab_channel=TravelNewTrails
2) I have three possible place to add inverter/charge , MPPT and batteriesOption 1) The current battery compartment is very small, I will have to stack the batteries sideways to make all the other components to fit, maybe it maybe very tight if it fits. please see
Even everything fit this compartment, I see two problems here
a) My hydronic jack is inside the compartment, it has a fluid container I have to add fluid to it, it will be very hard for me to add fluid to it(but since I do not need to do it very often, it may not be a big issue if I have to move the battery every 2-3 years.
b) this compartment is half open to outside, (because it is using ACID battery), I may have to seal it for the inverter/charge and lithium batteries (cold weather), there is definitely no place for me to add a heater to warn the battery if I go to cold place,( maybe put a heated flex pipe somehow inside to warn it?)
If I can somehow solve the above two issues and fit everything here, this will be the best, because everything is in the same SMALL place
Option 2) Remove my small frig in the washer/dryer area, Move all components (Inverter/charge, MTTP, control etc) except battery to the old frig area , leave the battery the way it is
The problem with this is the inverter and battery is about 8'-10' away, there are going to be some energy loss, in this design I may need to consider 24v battery system?
Option 3) Remove my small frig in the washer/dryer area, Move all components (Inverter/charge, MTTP, control etc.) INCLUDING battery to the old frig area ,
The problem I see in this design is because moved the location of the batteries, I am worry about the weight distribution of the RV, according to someone I heard, it is best to leave the battery the way it is because the manufactory has done the weight distribution test and I do not have anything over 120lbs that I can put in the current battery compartment.
Option 4) Move all components (Inverter/charge, MTTP, control etc.) Except battery to the 3rd compartment on the driver side
The problem with this is the invert and battery is about 8'-12' away, there are going to be some energy loss, in this design I may need to consider 24v battery system? Also this is on driver side, where I put all my 140 lbs. solar panel, add more weight on this side could have a weight balance issue?
Please advise.
Thanks again.
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7 minutes ago, GlennWest said:
Just remember big cables with 12v.
Yes, that will be my next question, how big? with 6 12v battle born connected parallel, 2400w inverter/charger.
I assume meme all my existing cable (factory provided, such as level jack, slide , cable to 12v panel, alternator cable) will NOT need to be changed, they will be directly connected to the Busbar. Please correct me if I am wrong here.
so the thick cable we are talking about her is between the batteries, battery to Inverter, charge controllers to busbar etc, to fuses? is 2 gauge good enough?
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1 hour ago, oldjohnt said:
John, here's a PS
Not knowing your roof space or how many solar watts you end up with, that 1400 Watt controller delivering 50 amps into 24 battery charging volts (50 x 28) may ??? be big enough, if not surely two of them (2800 Watts) will.
Here's my reasoning. Subject to geographic location, time of year and suns intensity and angle BIG FACTORS you may only get perhaps say 70% of the effective charging watts pumped into your battery of the solar watts flat mounted up on a roof. For Florida winter camping about the most charging watts I get from my 1080 flat rooftop watts of solar is 700 watts. YOU MAY GET MORE OR LESS, IT DEPENDS ON SUN AND ANGLE AND TIME OF YEAR AND LOCATION Don't anyone have a calf lol
Therefore, for that Victron controller to deliver 1400 watts of charging, that may equate to like 2000 watts of solar panels up on a flat roof SO HOW MUCH ROOF SPACE DO YOU HAVE AND HOW MANY SOLAR WATTS ARE YOU PLANNING ???????? If you need that much you must be building a system capable of running an AC unit for X time, are you ??????????
What Im saying is a single 50 Amp MPPT controller that can pump 1400 watts into your 24 volt battery bank might???????????? be enough for say 1500 to 2000 watts of solar panels ???????????
I can envision at least four up to perhaps six 300 watt panels up on your roof (1200 to 1800 watts) and if so that 1400 watt controller could (in theory at least subject to sun) get you by charging a 24 volt battery bank.
So now???? How many Amp Hours of batteries are you planning??? Im thinking 48 volts up top and 24 volt batteries at this time WHAT ARE YOU THINKING AT THIS TIME????
Gee its fun spending YOUR money lol
John T
John,
I am in Southern California so we do got plenty of sunshine here, I am thinking about 4 325w panels on the rooftop, I just ordered 6 12v battle born batteries 100ah, will order charge controllers and invert/charger tomorrow.
it does make sense to have two charge controllers and keep the battery at 12v in my case.
It is so nice at this stage you can just change just change the design without any consequences ::)
Thank you for all your help.
I learned so much here, your guys are great!
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2 hours ago, jcussen said:
You just opened my eyes, yes, now I think about it, it does make sense to have two charge controller and keep the battery at 12v!!!
I think this is what I am going to do.
Thank you!
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53 minutes ago, oldjohnt said:
Hey John, The plot thickens lol. First it was 12 versus 24, now its 24 versus 48 ??????? HEY THATS NOT BAD, ITS FUN TO DESIGN FOR THE BEST. It looks like you have done your homework and cost breakdowns. If COST ONLY is what matters fine, but engineering wise I like the higher operating voltages myself to reduce current.
I'm unsure of your system or specs and if you choose multiple 24 Volt Solar Panels you can still configure them (series or parallel or series/parallel etc) for 24 or 48 and even more net voltage down (Vmp is higher) to your charge controller, and many of which accept up to 100 Volts PV input, so if the MPPT output can charge your 24 volt battery bank I don't understand how higher net voltage up top allows for MORE solar watts????????? I see how many watts you can put on your roof depending on your roof real estate instead of if you connect the panels at 24 or 48 volts ???
I congratulate you for researching and considering cost and other engineering factors before making your final decision. Whatever net solar panel voltage you use is, of course, a different animal then deciding on what battery voltage you use. As long as your charge controller will handle the solar input voltage (say 24 or 48 or more) and charge your chosen battery voltage (12 or 24 or 48) and your Inverter/Charger will charge that same battery YOURE GOOD TO GO.......
Fun and interesting chat, for us sparkies at least
John T
Hi,John,
Maybe I misunderstand the Victron MTTP requirements ?
Here is my understand, please correct me if I am wrong (I have not bought the charge controller yet, still have to time to switch).
The Inverter/Controller I am looking at is Victron Energy 50A SmartSolar MPPT 100/50 Charge Controller w/ Bluetooth
Nominal PV Power (12V System): 700W
Nominal PV Power (24V System): 1400WMy understanding is if my RV battery system is 12v, it will only put 700w to the system, if my RV battery system is 24v it will be able to put 1400w to the system.
Or the 12v , 24v is refer to the voltage on the Solar panel side???
Please advise.
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1 hour ago, Kirk W said:
Your black background sure makes what you post difficult to read.
I thought white on black is easier to your eyes :))
I didn't realize that background got carried over after the post.
Just check with two other discuss forums, my post is black on white just like everyone else, only this forum is different, the admin should be able change it so the individual's background does not get carried over.
Now I am using white background only for this forum.
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3 minutes ago, jcussen said:
Other than an inverter, what other dedicated 24/48 volt devices are used in a motorhome. I hear there are some 48 volt ac's on the market, but have not seen one. Efficiency on a 48 volt inverter is about the same as a 12 volt one. Wiring will be smaller, of course, but if you have your controllers, batteries, and inverters in close proximity, and use the proper size wiring, can't see much difference.
Of course you have two charge controller! that is already the double the cost than one ::)
I am a little confused here, you say that "... Output is still 12 volts from charge controllers. I have a 48 volt system on the house"
so the output from charge controller is 12v and the house battery system is 48 volt? I thought the output voltgage from the Charge Controller has to be high than the house battery system?
Also "All my 12 volt electrical equipment is in one bay, so cost of wiring there was not a big factor", assume the house battery system is 48v, how do you get the 12v without DC to DC convert?
Please advise.
Thanks.
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3 hours ago, oldjohnt said:
Since you're talking about an MPPT charge controller I guess you are considering whether to configure your panels at 24 or 48 volts, right ????
Obviously 48 solar volts means there's less current down from panels to MPPT BUT IF THAT ALONE JUSTIFIES EXTRA COST that's a decision ONLY YOU CAN MAKE. I prefer and configured my panels at 48 volts but had it cost much more then 24 I may have changed my mind lol. My MPPT solar charge controller (for charging my 12 volt bank) accepts up to 100 Volts PV Input so deciding on 48 up top versus 24 was a no brainer in my case SINCE NO EXTRA COST regardless if 24 or 48 solar panel volts BUT THATS FOR CHARGING MY 12 VOLT BATTERY BANK NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT A 24 VOLT BATTERY BANK
NOTE you indicated you decided on 24 Volt battery bank BUT IF THAT MEANS YOUR INVERTER CHARGER AND MPPT costs a lot more again ONLY YOU can make that decision. Myself and others have offered opinions on the 12 versus 24 volt battery choice BUT NOW THESE NEW COST FIGURES ADD EVEN MORE CONSIDERATIONS
if you need to use series battery connections check with Battle Born to see if that's okay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Soooooooooooo are you still staying with 24 Volt batteries or due to extra cost (don't forget you also need a 24 to 12 converter if you go 24) or rethinking 12 ???????????????? YOUR CHOICE
John T
Here is why I chose 24v, for VICTRON ENERGY 50A SMARTSOLAR MPPT 100/50 CHARGE CONTROLLER W/ BLUETOOTH, Cost $381.00
Nominal PV Power (12V System): 700W, Nominal PV Power (24V System): 1400W, so if I put 1,300w (I am thinking about 4 325w panels) solar panel with 12v,this is not big enough as it out has 700w unde 12v, so I have to buy this:
VICTRON ENERGY SMARTSOLAR MPPT 150/100-TR CHARGE CONTROLLER W/ BLUETOOTH
cost $924.00
so more than $500.00 difference on MTTP charge controller alone. also I need 3,000w inverter/charger, that is
VICTRON 12v inverter charger cost $1,679. while the 24v inverter charge cost $1,284.
another $400.00 saving, plus the cost of wires , taxes (CA), I think that is at least $1,200 saving with 24v
of course I have to do 24v to 12v converter, $141.00. Also
Also when you consider the invert/charge or MTTP fail in the future, the cost to replace those will be much high if I go 12v
It makes me almost wants to go 48v, the cost of 48v inverter/charge & MTTP is $800 more than 24v. So the cost of going 12v is almost the same as I go 48v, but going to 48v, I could increase my solar panel to 2,000w or even high wattage on solar panels later on, no to mention the wire size etc..
So I am now debating on 24v or 48v now...
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2 hours ago, GlennWest said:
That price is very cheap. What are you asking about.
My bad, I mean $800.00 Extra, on top of $1,500.00 Victron MTTP charge controller & Victron Invert/Charger.
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4 hours ago, GlennWest said:
What kind of batteries you planning on?
Battle born.
I am thinking about 48v, but the mttp charge controller and inverter charge will cost minimum $800.00
Do you believe it is worth it?
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In the process of designing 1,200w system for my motorhomeI already decided to use 24v battery system.Should I use 24v batteries in parallel connection or use 12v batteries series & parallel connections to construct the 24v system? does it make any difference at all either way?All batteries are identical and will be purchase same time.Any pro and cons?Please advise.Thanks!
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I am designing a 6 100ahr battle born battery bank and 800w-1200w solar panel system for my 2017 35' motorhome.
I understand that high voltage system is better as it requires smaller size cable and more efficient, smaller size charge controller, but I also would like the motor home alternator charge my batteries when I am driving (no a deal breaker but it is nice to have it) , Also the wires between the batteries ,bus bar & fuses are very close, so I do not see that much benefit on 24v battery bank system on my motorhome . Please let me know if I missed anything here.
I am thinking about wire the solor panel at 24v and leave the battery bank at 12v use this MPPT charge controller:
VICTRON ENERGY 30A SMARTSOLAR MPPT 100/30 CHARGE CONTROLLER W/ BLUETOOTH
Maximum PV Open Circuit Voltage: 100V
Battery Voltage: 12V/24V Auto Select
It looks like I will be able to take the 24v or even 48v from solor panel and charge the 12v battery bank and take advantage of both 24v and 12v system, could anyone confirm that ?has anyone done this before?
Also Battle born also sell the battery isolation manager, have anyone had any experience on this?
Please advise.
Thanks in advance. -
Thanks for all your help.
Here is what I did to fix it.
1) Tight the nuts on all battery connections
2) instead of push one end to start the generator, push other end for 10 second, I started to see red light on the power indicator, the push to start generator again. and that DID started the generator
3) Tight the 50 amps electric connections , because I park far from the house receptacle, the wire was really stretched. one end connect to RV is not tight enough, so it did pass some electricity to power the RV inverter, but no enough power to power the 110v!!!ALMOST HAD A HEARTATTACK!!!
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3 hours ago, Danandfreda said:
I had one do that a long while back and ended up being a 50 amp fuse. It was on the younger of a travel trailer near the battery. Small block with 2 stud terminals. Sounds like what mine was doing not 100% sure that’s it. It’s been 15 years ago. Good luck
3 hours ago, Kirk W said:Are you saying that connecting the inverter/charger to shore power causes you to loose all other 120V power? You do understand that most RV inverters are not connected to supply things like the microwave and air conditioners?
One missing wire causing the DC problem and that is fixed now.
When batteries are disconnected, set the inverter breaker to off will turn off all lights, that proves that I have power coming from my 50 amp power line. but for whatever reason I do not have power all all appliances and outlets...
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Hi,Gurus,
After I changed my house batteries , all my ac appliances and outlet stop working. I took a picture of the wiring connection before I disconnected the wiring, it is exactly like it was before. no sure what happened, maybe I should have discounted the power line before I changed the batteries?I did reset all breaks, no luck, looks like only the inverter breaker is doing something, when I turned off the inverter breakers, all lights went out.
So what I have right now is if I unplugged the connection to my 50 amp power source, all DC went dead as if I did not have battery connected at all.
if I plugged in the 50 amp power source, only DC was working (lights) , ALL A/C appliances - Microwave, A/C, outlets etc., did not work at all.
Please help!!!
Thanks in advance!
I am suppose to go on a 11-day trip today ::(
2017 Thor windsport J34 motorhome
Bought Victron Inverter/Charger but it only has one hot, now what?
in Technical Tips and Tricks
Posted
Could you please elaborate how dry transformer will work in my scenario ? is the following the kind of transformer you are talking about?
https://www.hodgesmarine.com/vicitr040202041-victron-isolation-transformer--2000w--115230.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwzIH7BRAbEiwAoDxxTkNezuuNYzZ5yocjQzIaCtvhFqkwLWQQGelmyWeVGPcQK_1l-v5TdhoCaCAQAvD_BwE
Thx