Smallest 240V 50amp generator??

[lappir]

I survived the "Bomb" winter storm before Christmas, but had the power gone out it would have been bad. I have a couple Honda's, but they won't run my current HVAC. I need something that will run it.  They are talking about Ice the next time a winter weather alert comes through. I have a propane furnace, but not currently hooked up to a thermostat. I don't need it unless the power goes out. 

I want something portable. Won't install permanent. Would prefer an electric start and might in time connect it to a transfer switch that would start it in my absence. I am thinking of dual fuel that I can let the gas tank stay empty unless I'm going to use it a lot. Will use the propane for it instead of the furnace. 

 

Rod

 

[Wrknrvr]

Is your propane furnace 12vdc or 110 vac powered.

 

 

[Kirk W]

I am assuming that this is to supply a furnace in a house? if so then you will need to get into the higher power units such as those suggested by Best Reviews, but realize that they won't very easy to move and most of them are fairly noisy.

[Randyretired]

Walmart.com has a 13,000 watt Duromax generator for around $1,000. It is dual fuel and electric start. I have one just a little smaller and so far it has been great.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Randyretired

[lappir]

6 hours ago, Wrknrvr said:

Is your propane furnace 12vdc or 110 vac powered.

12 Volt's I believe. It was tied to the Thermostat for the Coleman Mach that bit the dust a few years ago. I bought a cheap Thermostat, but couldn't decide what wire to hook up . Seemed to be only one. I keep forgetting to ask when I'm at Spacecraft. 

Rod

6 hours ago, Wrknrvr said:

 

 

 

[lappir]

57 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

Walmart.com has a 13,000 watt Duromax generator for around $1,000. It is dual fuel and electric start. I have one just a little smaller and so far it has been great.

I looked at several today, but none fit the bill. There was one Dual Fuel, but not electric start. There was a Champion with a real 50amp plug, but not dual fuel. Pretty sure I exhausted all the local sites so I may break down and order one to have it delivered to my door. 

Rod

[Star Dreamer]

50 amps at 250volts is 12000 watts minimum, are you sure you need the full 50amps to power your heating system in your unit? You may be able to go smaller and keep it more portable or tie two smaller ones together with a parallel kit to give you the 50 amp plug.

[Star Dreamer]

Use something like this  https://www.harborfreight.com/rv-ready-50-amp-inverter-generator-parallel-kit-58374.html

[Kirk W]

52 minutes ago, Star Dreamer said:

Use something like this 

That won't do the job as he needs 240V. "Quickly connect two generators together with this 120V, 50A parallel kit for double the power at RV sites,"

[lappir]

51 minutes ago, Star Dreamer said:

50 amps at 250volts is 12000 watts minimum, are you sure you need the full 50amps to power your heating system in your unit? You may be able to go smaller and keep it more portable or tie two smaller ones together with a parallel kit to give you the 50 amp plug.

I think during the coldest day last weekend I didn't hit 5000 watts. Ran in the low to mid 4000 when I looked at the Bullydog monitor a couple times. I was ready to haul one out of Menards today but found it wasn't electric start. 7500 watts with 9000 peak and dual fuel. Not having electric start made me leave it there. A little less than 1k. 

Looking at the Westinghouse and just looked again at one in KC on Ebay. I purchased it. Has the 50 Amp outlet built in. Not sure when it will get here, but I think at a little more than 1K it will be worth it. Now to sell the Honda's that I paid a bit more for a few years ago and found out they wouldn't work as Kirk mentioned just now. 

 

Rod

9 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

That won't do the job as he needs 240V. "Quickly connect two generators together with this 120V, 50A parallel kit for double the power at RV sites,"

 

[Wrknrvr]

  If your furnace is a Dometic or Suburban. They both have two blue wires that are for the thermostat. One blue wire has 12 vdc. when the two are connected then it turns the control board on. Then the furnace operates.

how do you turn the furnace on now. Is it with a switch.

[Star Dreamer]

42 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

That won't do the job as he needs 240V. "Quickly connect two generators together with this 120V, 50A parallel kit for double the power at RV sites,"

Actually it should as it will give you two legs of 120 volt power to give the 240 volts he needs. Same as in a house circuit. The big question would be if they are in phase or out of phase and if that makes a difference. 

[Kirk W]

12 hours ago, Star Dreamer said:

Actually it should as it will give you two legs of 120 volt power to give the 240 volts he needs. Same as in a house circuit.

Not true. The house has L1 of 120V and L2 of 120V that is 180° out of phase which means basically you have +120V on one side and -120V on the other side, giving you 240V when you measure between them. That is also what you have on the 50A power cord of an RV but what you propose is 2 outlets that are exactly in phase and added together give you twice the current at exactly the same voltage as you would get from only 1. Any load connected between them will see 0V. It is basic electric principle. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Kirk W

[Chad Heiser]

Hopefully the generator you bought stated it actually produced 240 volt power.  Just because it has an RV 50 amp plug on it doesn’t mean it necessarily produces 240 volt power.  There are lots of generators that have two legs of power to feed both sides of a 50 amp plug, but those legs are in phase and therefore only give you 120 volt power instead of 240 volt.

[oldjohnt]

10 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

Hopefully the generator you bought stated it actually produced 240 volt power.  Just because it has an RV 50 amp plug on it doesn’t mean it necessarily produces 240 volt power.  There are lots of generators that have two legs of power to feed both sides of a 50 amp plug, but those legs are in phase and therefore only give you 120 volt power instead of 240 volt.

I agree with Chad, I have seen portable gensets with 50 Amp 3 Pole 4 Wire Grounding Receptacles that produce 120 VAC from EITHER L1 or L2 to Neutral, however those are IN PHASE such thats it IS NOT 240 VAC L1 TO L2, ITS ACTUALLY ZERO VOLTS L1 TO L2 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CAUTION even if you don't need 240 as the case in most 50 amp RVs, if L1 and L2 are in phase (like some gensets are) subject to current draw and Neutral conductor THERES A RISK YOU WILL OVERLOAD THE NEUTRAL CONDUCTOR, The reason is with true 120/240 Single Phase Three Wire service L1 and L2 are 180 out of phase with each other whereby its 240 L1 to L2 and in that case if BOTH L1 and L2 draw the same current NEUTRAL CURRENT IS ZERO, they cancel each other out UNLIKE the case in a genset thats NOT true 120/240.

HOWEVER thats NOT to say a genset with a 50 Amp Receptacle (even if L1 and L2 are in phase phase cant be used) just be aware and limit your loads and realize you may NOT be able to power a lot of appliances as if you were hooked to actual 120/240 Single Phase Three Wire like many RV park pedestals and homes and be aware Neutral currents are additive ...

Hope this helps,

John T Long retired n rusty power engineer but believe this is still true  HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE

[Kirk W]

11 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

There are lots of generators that have two legs of power to feed both sides of a 50 amp plug, but those legs are in phase and therefore only give you 120 volt power instead of 240 volt.

Reading back through the entire thread, it seems that he is powering his "2013 Space Craft Mfg S420 Custom built Toyhauler" so he probably doesn't actually need the 240V and could use one of the units that have L1 & L2 in phase. It would be an unusual RV if but custom built it could be. The only fifth wheel that I can recall having seen that actually used 240V for anything was one that did have a clothes dryer that was across L1 & L2 and I think it was owner installed. The 50a motorhome that we were fulltime in was just fine with L1 and L2 in phase.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Kirk W

[lappir]

Quite the spirited electrical discussion. I sort of understand the jargon, but some times it reads as wawawa,wa.

I do require 240 volts of power and according to the photo and info I read about the genset it does produce 240 volts and has the appropriate plug already installed. 

I looked at and almost walked out of the store with it, but realized it did not have electric start. It had a 30 amp outlet marked 120/240. I purchased a 4 prong twist in 30 amp plug and was going to convert my extension power cord to a generator cord and then check the output before actually hooking it up to the trailer. I will check the output on the one I purchased when it arrives. 

When I had the Mini Split system installed my second RV park only had 30 amp plugs. Before the install my "Basement" air worked find on 30 amps, but the Mini Split did not. A quick call to Spacecraft and I found out they neglected to mention that. I did pick up the trailer after hours though so didn't get  a true run through of it and have had to learn about it by doing. 

For some reason I'm thinking a ice storm is on the way sometime this winter and the power will be out for longer than I can stand. I hope I'm wrong and the purchase of the genset wards it off for others. I could have had a Onan installed with the build, but 10k seemed like a lot for something I hadn't really used in the prior trailer. So far it has worked. 

 

Rod

[Kirk W]

10 minutes ago, lappir said:

I do require 240 volts of power and according to the photo and info I read about the genset it does produce 240 volts and has the appropriate plug already installed. 

The easiest way check for a true 240V output is by measuring with a volt meter between L1 and L2 of the power plug. If you measure 0V where you expect 240V then the two phases are the same and you only have 120V.  (Hot1 & Hot2)

Your mini split could very well have a 240V requirement. I am not well informed about those and have only looked at one on a park model and if I remember right it did use 240V. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Kirk W

[GlennWest]

More than one to skin a cat. I have a 240v mini split. I put it on a transformer and now it runs off of a 120v circuit. Did this so I can use an small quite generator. Just get one you can step up voltage.

Edited January 1, 2023 by GlennWest

[oldjohnt]

8 hours ago, lappir said:

I do require 240 volts of power and according to the photo and info I read about the genset it does produce 240 volts and has the appropriate plug already installed. 

  Thanks for the update: It sounds from what you post that genset should suffice !!!!!!!!!

  Indeed some RV's that use perhaps a 240 Volt dryer or AC or mini split etc. NEED FULL TRUE 120/240 SINGLE PHASE THREE WIRE ELECTRICAL SERVICE such as most modern RV 50 Amp NEMA 14-50R Receptacles furnish subject to the parks distribution scheme. Many 50 Amp RV's however do not use any 240 Volt appliances. They operate with ALL loads/appliances being 120 Volt, they just divide the loads among the two 120 availoable VAC legs, maybe one AC on L1 the other AC on L2 etc.  

  While its unlikely you actually require that much, 50 Amps at 240 Volts = 12,000 Watts 

  It's easy peasey (as I previously posted 4 comments up above) to check voltage at the gensets 50 Amp receptacle to see what's actually present. If you measure 120 VAC from EITHER L1 or L2 to Neutral or Ground and 240 VAC L1 to L2 THATS FULL TRUE 120/240 SINGLE PHASE THREE WIRE the same as most modern RV 50 amp pedestal power. HOWEVER (as I posted up above) if you measure 0 volts L1 to L2 thats NOT what you need if your RV requires 240 Volts for an AC or mini split or dryer etc 

  Hang in there you are getting this, hope this helps, post back any questions

Have a Happy and Blessed New Year everyone

 John T

Edited January 1, 2023 by oldjohnt

[Ray,IN]

Is there a reason you don't want to run the 12V LP furnace when utility power fails, or is this merely your preference?

[lappir]

9 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

Is there a reason you don't want to run the 12V LP furnace when utility power fails, or is this merely your preference?

Sort of a long answer. 

Have you ever had something custom built?

I had not before having my toyhauler built.

I asked for a full 4 season home with no frills. 

Picked up the house in late October with mild temperatures at the factory for the check out. Was told there may be an issue with the heat portion of the HVAC system where I could only turn it up by a max of 3 degrees at a time. Was assured it was sized appropriately for the upper Midwest for full 4 seasons. " It will be less efficient when the temps get to freezing."

Temperatures dropped drastically in Iowa over the next week and I found the HVAC actually didn't work at all at temps around 20. It got to a low of -12. My electric heaters kept the living area reasonable, but a week later I took the trailer back. They did an install of the propane furnace, but my inexperience in this type of deal didn't help me at all. I should have left the trailer there for them to live in it for a month or two and fix it so it was actually a FULL 4 Season UNIT. I didn't and accepted and maybe suggested a stupid way of adding the propane unit. 

Fast forward to the first time turning the A/C on in Florida a couple months later. The unit would not cool the house in Florida during the winter!! Another big red flag I didn't heed. 

An HVAC tech was sent out and found a "Jumper wire" that allowed the "Second" compressor to engage was loose and the compressor engaged immediately when it was wiggled. The Cooling was adequate for the remainder of the time in Florida and I didn't spend any cold winter or much time in the Hot and Humid Florida, so in moderate temps the HVAC worked. 

Another Fast forward to  Tallahassee Florida.  I found out why initially the HVAC unit would turn off if the temp was increased more than 3 degrees. The HVAC would signal the Propane furnace to start. I did not enjoy the noise and did not feel the need for the Propane unit to run, but it did quite a bit during the winters in Tallahassee. 

I'm not sure what Spring it was but the  unit again was not cooling. A tech came out and assured me he could fix it. A month later it was still not repaired but a very large repair bill was provided. 

Back to the factory and found out the less then 5 year old HVAC system was junk and I opted for the installation of my Mini Split, so far it has worked very well in keeping the living area comfortable and has been very efficient and I haven't regretted not having the propane unit. I do wish they had put in a thermostat for the basement and I could have tried it during the most recent below zero event. Once again my ignorance has shown. 

I could have said I'm stupid and don't like the propane at the start, but as you can see I didn't. 

 

Rod

[Wrknrvr]

     I will discuss just your propane furnace system.

 

    You apparently have Coleman rooftop Ac units. Or Ac/ heat pumps.

 

  You need to have a simple mechanical thermostat on your propane furnace.     So that it is only controlled by that thermostat.

    The Coleman/ RV thermostat will not be satisfactory for your emergency situation.

 

   I have a Aquahot unit I installed in our fifthwheel. There are 4 heat zones. Every one of them are on a separate mechanical thermostat. And have a on/off switch.

 The roof top a/c units are Dometic and have Atwood furnaces controlled by the Dometic 5 button thermostat.

      Pm me with a phone number and I can discuss it with you in more details.

[GlennWest]

I used a mechanical Thermostat and was not happy with the temp difference. Several degrees. Got a Honeywell unit digital from Lowes and it works great. It is like 2 degrees difference.

[GeorgiaHybrid]

1 hour ago, Wrknrvr said:

     I will discuss just your propane furnace system.

    You apparently have Coleman rooftop Ac units. Or Ac/ heat pumps.

I'm pretty sure he has a LG mini split like you would have in your home or small office. I can't remember if it has the wall mount inside units or the ceiling mounted inside units.

That is why he needs a 240 volt system. There are a lot of Spacecraft customs with one or two exterior units and as many as four indoor units to heat and cool the trailer.

Edited January 2, 2023 by GeorgiaHybrid