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Ground lug on inverter


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I assume I have a neutral to ground. Have not checked but Teton had to do this. I was asking about the ground lug on the outside of my inverter. I didn't the day I put it in. 

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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I doubt Teton has the nuetral bonded to ground.  It shouldn't be until you are plugged in.  Then the nuetral to ground bond is at one location, usually the breaker box.  I am not familiar with the inverter you have but it needs to bond the ground and neutral.  Many smaller inverters do this but it might be wise to check. 

The ground and bonding within the RV is the most important.  The ground rod provides mostly protection for surges and stray voltage for the equipment and some  safety.  However, for our safety proper grounding and bonding in the RV is essential. 

Randy

2001 Volvo VNL 42 Cummins ISX Autoshift

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Glenn as an old retired power distribution engineer, these type questions are dear to my heart, and although I'm rusty on the latest NEC, I believe this to still be accurate. NO Warranty, if the NEC has changed please someone more current enlighten me, I'm never too old to learn I hope lol

FWIW I happen to agree with Randy (Might it be great minds think alike orrrrrrrr even a blind squirrel finds a nut now n then lol) so here is my take on your good question:

SHORT ANSWER IS YES, here's the theory as I best recall:

1) There is to be ONLY ONE Neutral Ground Bond (IE Single Point Grounding) and I (as well as the RV and other industry) prefer a Grounded versus a Floating system STILL SUBJET TO OTHER ELECTRICAL CONDITIONS (IE some smaller gensets cone from the factory with a Floating Neutral, others a Bonded Neutral, but that's a whole other thread).

2) Unlike your homes panel, an RV panel has separate insulated and isolated Neutral and Ground Busses (N and G are NOT Bonded) as typically the SINGLE Neutral Ground Bond already exists back in the parks distribution system.

3) If using a Genset or an Inverter configured as a "Separate Derived System" to power an RV and given you and the RV industry prefer a "Grounded System" the "Separate Derived System" would have a BONDED Neutral (NG Bond) PLUS the Neutral bonded to a proper GROUNDING ELECTRODE........If the genset were sitting outside the RV, that means the Neutral would be bonded to ALL READILY AVAILABLE GROUNDING ELECTRODES such as if none other available to a "Made Grounding Electrode" such as driven ground rod or rods HOWEVER when mounted to an RV, the RV frame serves in effect as a substitute Grounding Electrode.    

4) Grounding IS NOT the same as Bonding. Earth grounding of the Neutral is for lightning and surge protection and tying/keeping the grid to one common low voltage potential IE Mother Earth. Neutral Ground Bonding is for shock protection and short circuit conditions in which case the Equipment Grounding Conductor is for fault current only and provides a return current path so the fault is cleared..  

PS In addition, just as all other electrical devices and appliances have their case/frame connected to the Equipment Grounding Conductor, the Inverters case/frame needs likewise and when you tie the ground lug to the RV frame (tied to Ground Buss in RV panel) you are effectively doing the same again IN SPITE OF OR REGARDLESS ALL THE ABOVE   

 Got it ?? Clear as mud ??

John T (also retired)  NOT any Solar or Inverter expert (I don't have your inverter diagram or specs) but believe this should answer your question and hopefully provide some insight 

 

Edited by oldjohnt
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Glenn the neutral and the ground on your inverter are the safety of your RV.  These are not separate issues.   The inverter should be grounded to the frame and the neutral needs to be bonded.  There is a misconception that the ground needs a ground rod to the earth to be safe.  Not true! All grounds need to be connected together and bonded as John said for safety.  Connecting to a ground rod is mainly for equipment protections.  Grounding is a complicated and misunderstood electrical safety issue.  There are some YouTube videos that go into some detail if you are interested.  

Randy

2001 Volvo VNL 42 Cummins ISX Autoshift

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3 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

What is all this talk about neutral. I am asking about the ground lug on the side of the inverter. Is the frame of our Teton grounded in any way? 

It's there for education and explanation ........An RV frame rolling down the road is obviously NOT earth grounded DUH HOWEVER it is bonded to the Panels Equipment Ground Buss, call that "grounded" if you like...

PS do not feel bad if this is all Greek lol if a person isn't an electrician or electrical engineer or NEC trained IT MAY WELL SOUND GREEK........

YES I consider the RV frame to be "grounded" to say an Equipment Ground Buss or say the Equipment Grounding Conductor

YES I would attach it to the RV frame, but its your RV to do as you please AND ESPECIALY WHAT THE MANUFACTURER HAS TO SAY Listen to them not me 

Take care be safe but most of all do that the manufacturer says !!!!!!!!!! read the manual, dont risk your life or warranty on anything said here, certainly me included  

 John T

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1 hour ago, GlennWest said:

Victron manual states to ground to earth ground. We have no such thing. Reason I was asking.

Thanks for that info Glenn, well THEY are the manufacturer but using the term EARTH GROUND seems confusing ?? However, I can confirm an external genset or Inverter for that matter when configured as a "Separate Derived Source" does by code require connection to a "Grounding Electrode" which can consist among other things a "Made Electrode" like one or two copper rods driven into mother earth. One other thing I observed in my career is that Electronic and Computer Engineers  ARE NOT ON THE SAME PAGE as Electrical Power Engineers and the NEC terminology or understanding.  So "ground to earth ground" may not be the best description. Needless to say many of the electrical devices Ive installed in RV's did have a "Ground Lug" and the manuals indicated a connection to a universal ground "symbol" (or perhaps RV chassis) for whatever that's worth........ Im back to ASK VICTRON what to do to be on the safe side (FWIW I'd still wire it to the chassis unless I was told or knew otherwise which I cant determine from here) 

Best wishes Glenn

John T

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I always ground the inverter equipment ground lug to the chassis on every installation I do.  It allows for an electrical path to “ground” if there is an internal failure in the inverter.  This way the inverter’s skin won’t hold that electrical charge in the event of a failure.

 

As to the ground and neutral bonding, this is handled internally inside the Victron inverter.  When there is shore power present, the inverter does not internally bond the neutral and ground.  When no shore power is present and the inverter is inverting, it internally (and automatically) combines the neutral and ground so there is a neutral to ground bond at the source (the inverter).  You do not have to do anything for this to happen.

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5 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

As to the ground and neutral bonding, this is handled internally inside the Victron inverter.  When there is shore power present, the inverter does not internally bond the neutral and ground.  When no shore power is present and the inverter is inverting, it internally (and automatically) combines the neutral and ground so there is a neutral to ground bond at the source (the inverter).

Chad, I don't have his Inverter wiring diagram HOWEVER on the units I've installed that was the case.......THE REASON WHY is explained in my post above where I noted THERE IS TO BE ONLY ONE NEUTRAL GROUND BOND per the NEC's Single Point Grounding theory.

5 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

I always ground the inverter equipment ground lug to the chassis on every installation I do.  It allows for an electrical path to “ground” if there is an internal failure in the inverter.  This way the inverter’s skin won’t hold that electrical charge in the event of a failure.

EXACTLY just as other electrical devices or appliances have any outer conductive case/frames connected to the third wire safety Equipment Grounding Conductor, an Inverter or Charger is the same. This way in the event a live conductor shorted to the case/frame there is a low impedance return path for fault current so the breaker will trip. Again absent his units wiring diagram of the many electrical devices I've installed in RV's over a 50 year span, they had a connection to the frame. In addition as I also explained above, when a genset or an inverter is configured as a "Separate Derived Source" the Neutral is connected to a 'Grounding Electrode" and in an RV the frame substitutes for such.     

 Hopefully we have helped Glenn understand this even if we had to "beat it to death" and bore others lol 

 Best wishes and take care Glenn and Randy

 John T

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I am going to have more inverter/s in same location so instead to multiple holes in chassis for grounds, believe I will get me a bussbar and mount it for ground terminals. 

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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15 hours ago, GlennWest said:

I am going to have more inverter/s in same location so instead to multiple holes in chassis for grounds, believe I will get me a bussbar and mount it for ground terminals. 

When I install multiple inverters, I often Daisy chain the ground wires from one inverter to the next and then come off the last inverter in the chain to a frame ground.

2000 Kenworth T2000 w/ Cummins N14 and autoshift
2017 DRV Mobile Suite 40KSSB4 with factory mods, dealer mods and personal mods - now in the RV graveyard
2022 DRV Full House MX450 with customized floor plan
2018 Polaris RZR Turbo S (fits in the garage)
2016 Smart Car (fits in the garage or gets flat towed behind the DRV when the RZR is in the garage)
My First Solar Install Thread
My Second Solar Install Thread & Photos and Documents Related to the build
My MX450's solar, battery and inverter system - my biggest system yet!

chadheiser.com      West Coast HDT Rally Website

event.png    

AZCACOIDIAKSMNMOMTNENVNMNDOKSDTNTXUTWYxlg.jpg

 

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21 hours ago, GlennWest said:

I am going to have more inverter/s in same location so instead to multiple holes in chassis for grounds, believe I will get me a bussbar and mount it for ground terminals. 

Glenn, you're on top of this. Just as one huge Buss works for all the POSITIVE connections, likewise one huge Buss for all the NEGATIVES is a good system and how I have configured mine using a lot of Blue Sea marine components. A good single solid frame bond should suffice.  

 Get this all done and let us know how things perform, excellent I suspect !!

John T

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Going to wait until cooler temps. It is ranging in upper 90's here with index over 100. This can wait. Bad thing it is I am off from work until September. Have plenty of funds for this. My next time off be close to December. Will likely wait till then. Going to do solar and inverters together.

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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As I understand the terminology "earth" is used in Europe and "ground" is used in North America, they refer to the same thing; earth ground is redundant IMO.

 

2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA ." And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.  John F. Kennedy 20 Jan 1961

 

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11 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

As I understand the terminology "earth" is used in Europe and "ground" is used in North America, they refer to the same thing; earth ground is redundant IMO.

Good morning Neighbor, In the many NEC Seminars and Workshops I attended over the years taught by recognized experts and those who actually served on NEC boards IN THIS COUNTRY, they used the term EARTH GROUNDING (for protection against lightning, HV spikes and surges, and keeping the gird at a common low voltage reference IE Mother Earth) and developed and used a common understood term GROUNDING ELECTRODE. When I practiced per the NEC we were required to BOND to ALL READILY AVAILABLE GROUNDING ELECTRODES be it Structural Steel or buried foundation structural steel (and others I forget lol) and if none such existed to a MADE ELECTRODE consisting of one or more rods driven into earth. As above in the case of an RV mounted onboard genset, the RV frame serves as a suitable GROUNDING ELECTRODE... 

 Nice chatting with you neighbor

John T Too longggggggggg retired EE so NO warranty, if in doubt consult the NEC NOT ME 

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