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Missing couple in motorhome, thought to be in Nevada


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33 minutes ago, Ray,IN said:

He was on a 2-lane paved highway, turned onto a gravel road, which turned into a dirt road, which turned into a fire lane in heavy woods. All this time his GPS was telling him he was on the correct road.

That happened to us following the Great River Road down the west side of the Mississippi River. Fortunately ours didn't end in a forest road but did, eventually, bring us back to pavement. Even when you know where you are going you can be misled.

Linda

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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When you are on a major US Highway, like US Highway 95. with no constructions signs saying that the section is gravel due to road construction, then one should know they are not where they should be!   I am sorry, but trying to blame the GPS for getting SO FAR off of the road they were using to go to Las Vegas gets away from the fact that it was HUMAN ERROR.  Now the human error could be not looking at a whole map showing US 95 from Reno to Las Vegas, to not understanding what your particular GPS unit does or doesn't do based upon what you set up.  Early days of computers the term GIGO was widely used when something didn't work right.   

Barb & Dave O'Keeffe
2002 Alpine 36 MDDS (Figment II), 2018 Ford C-Max HYBRID
Blog: http://www.barbanddave.net
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Personally, I don't think they blindly followed the GPS off of a highway onto a dirt track.  I think they were looking for a place to camp and the GPS directed them off road.  Still, just guessing, but the only one I can find is Fish Lake Valley Hot Well which is about 10 miles from where they were found.  

It is just beyond my imagination that anyone would turn off of a paved state highway and onto a dirt road just because their GPS said "turn here."  There has to be more to it than that.

Our "Here and There" Blog

 

2005 Safari Cheetah Motorhome

 

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Don’t you people have anything better to do than bash someone that made a mistake. It cost them enough now SOME of you won’t stop the I can’t believe someone would do this or I can’t believe it was the gps fault or no common sense. You have no idea if the family is on here and you just keep going on about it. When is it enough? Hope fully none of you ever make a mistake that cost someone their life, but it sounds to me like most of you don’t make mistakes. 

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3 hours ago, Danfreda1 said:

Don’t you people have anything better to do than bash someone that made a mistake. It cost them enough now SOME of you won’t stop the I can’t believe someone would do this or I can’t believe it was the gps fault or no common sense. You have no idea if the family is on here and you just keep going on about it. When is it enough? Hope fully none of you ever make a mistake that cost someone their life, but it sounds to me like most of you don’t make mistakes. 

I've admitted three of ours in hopes that people stop saying they must be idiots. I don't think you all think Dave and I are idiots but I could be wrong about that, too.

Linda

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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Once i was distracted when the GPS said "turn here", I did, into a residential driveway out in the country. The intended RV park was behind that residence on a different road 1/8 mile away.

I have a new GPS coming, my old Rand McNally RVND 7 was declared obsolete by RM = no more map updates since 2017. BTW RM is out of the RV GPS market.

 

2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA ." And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.  John F. Kennedy 20 Jan 1961

 

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guess i will never understand it?

if a paved rd you are on turns into gravel you should know it will get bad.

if you are traveling city to city, then all of the roads will be paved. (aka: hwy's, etc) and motor homes are not built for "dirt" road travel.

sure other lesser country's any paved road is a sight to behold in and of it's self.

yes there are "short cuts", but even a lot of the back roads i have been on. are paved. maybe not with in the past 30 years or so. but still have ok pavement. as these rd's see very little usage.

and some are just as dangers as a so called "jeep" road. (narrow, steep grades, no shoulders, and long drop-offs). but do give you great views.

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1 hour ago, Ray,IN said:

BTW RM is out of the RV GPS market.

i am not at all surprised. Back when they first introduced the RV version Escapees were asked for a few members to work with their beta testing program. I don't know for sure who all was involved but I know that I gave up because they didn't listen to suggestions for corrections and when I told Mark Nemeth (he was also a beta tester) about quitting I discovered that he left several months before I did and for the same reason. 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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23 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

 

.....................The moral of this story;  USA GPS units are not accurate in North Central Canada..

 

The Canadian government SELLS their map information to private companies.  The US Government map information is ALL in the public domain.  Wanna guess why US GPS units are better??

Knowing that I waited until Kamloops to buy a Canadian GPS unit.  It was awful.  HUGE LAKES, were not on the GPS.  Roads were just a total hit and miss.   The good news is that GPS leaves a breadcrumb trail, and I could get lat and long to several decimal points to locate myself on a paper map.

Besides if I got stranded and had to hike out, I would have the lat and long to give to the tow truck guy!!!

19 hours ago, Danfreda1 said:

Don’t you people have anything better to do than bash someone that made a mistake. It cost them enough now SOME of you won’t stop the I can’t believe someone would do this or I can’t believe it was the gps fault or no common sense. You have no idea if the family is on here and you just keep going on about it. When is it enough? Hope fully none of you ever make a mistake that cost someone their life, but it sounds to me like most of you don’t make mistakes. 

Everybody makes mistakes.  

I was at a Forest Service meeting on fatalities that happened on recent forest fire.  One of the presenters asked the question "Are you good or just lucky".  

He asked everybody to make a list of "personal" near fatalities.  You don't want to see my list.  I walked away from all of them, but several times came within literally inches of killing myself in the middle of somewhere.

The Forest Service does a intensive review of all fatalities of its employees.

I view this thread in the same vein.  A learning experience, so that it lowers the odds for me and other folks reading the thread.

It might be helpful to start a NEW THREAD, on things NEVER to do when traveling on public lands.   

For example, I would NEVER drive a dirt road in the dark for the first time IF I could avoid it.  I have a vacation rental located on a dirt road.  I keep telling people, get here before DARK.  Yeah, want to know how times I have gone out looking for LOST guests.  This is on a simple road, you really have to work at it to get lost.

Nobody is bashing them, but I think everybody wants to understand what mistakes they made.

Vladimr Steblina

Retired Forester...exploring the public lands.

usbackroads.blogspot.com

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16 minutes ago, Vladimir said:

Nobody is bashing them, but I think everybody wants to understand what mistakes they made.

And an honest answer, not necessarily a PC one. It seems that nowadays, anyone who drives into a place that they should have known better than go, then blames it on their GPS. It isn't just older people who do that either. I have looked at 2 different GPS, Apple maps and Google maps to route between Reno & Las Vegas and none of those routes get anywhere near the location that their RV was found. If we assume that their GPS did direct them to take that road, I would like to know a lot more about the GPS involved. What make/model was it? Were the maps and firmware kept current? Was the GPS working properly? There are too many unanswered questions for any conclusion to be drawn. Since the driver is now deceased, do you really believe that his wife would tell us if she knew that it was him doing something very foolish? I think not and I would not expect her to do so. She just lost her husband and she sure doesn't want to remember him in any negative way. I highly doubt that anyone will do a serious investigation of this like is done with aircraft accidents, but it would be the only way to reliably know the details of how this came to happen. I wonder just as much as the next person, but really do not expect to ever know. 

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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17 hours ago, sandsys said:

II don't think you all think Dave and I are idiots but I could be wrong about that, too.

I know that the "you all" group doesn't think you are idiots.  Because I'm presumably part of that group, and I don't. 😉

Volvo 770, New Horizons Majestic and an upcoming Smart car

 

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2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

And an honest answer, not necessarily a PC one.

You had lots of questions...so will try to answer them below.

And an honest answer, not necessarily a PC one. It seems that nowadays, anyone who drives into a place that they should have known better than go, then blames it on their GPS.

As I understand it......GPS was developed by the Defense Department to guide cruise missiles into their targets.  The Defense Department "fuzzed" the data, particularly the elevation data so other countries could NOT use our GPS system to attack us. 

That's it.  GPS will give you lat and long, and elevation.  That is the information that BIG TECH is pulling from the US government satellites.  The rest of it comes from primarily PUBLIC US government, state, and local databases.  I understand some mapping companies do check and update mapping on their own....primarily in urban areas.

It isn't just older people who do that either. I have looked at 2 different GPS, Apple maps and Google maps to route between Reno & Las Vegas and none of those routes get anywhere near the location that their RV was found. If we assume that their GPS did direct them to take that road, I would like to know a lot more about the GPS involved.

The route is dependent on the parameter the user sets in the GPS.  In this case, probably fastest route or shortest route.  I suspect these folks selected shortest route.  

It does matter "WHEN" you select the route.  It will change as you move closer to your destination.  On my GPS I generally, just let it say recalibrating and then finally it sync's again with my paper map.

It does NOT matter which GPS unit is involved.  IT MATTERS which government maps they are using and the date of the mapping, plus the purpose.

What make/model was it? Were the maps and firmware kept current?

See above answer.  The firmware and maps updates ONLY MATTER if the GPS company UPDATED THEIR MAPS.

Was the GPS working properly?

I have NEVER had a GPS unit malfunction.  They either work or they don't.

There are too many unanswered questions for any conclusion to be drawn. Since the driver is now deceased, do you really believe that his wife would tell us if she knew that it was him doing something very foolish?

I don't think he did anything "foolish".  He made some bad choices, actually several that compounded into the tragedy.  

Quite frankly, she only knows part of the bad choices they made.

I think not and I would not expect her to do so. She just lost her husband and she sure doesn't want to remember him in any negative way. I highly doubt that anyone will do a serious investigation of this like is done with aircraft accidents, but it would be the only way to reliably know the details of how this came to happen. I wonder just as much as the next person, but really do not expect to ever know. 

I am NOT even sure WHO has jurisdiction to investigate "multiple GPS" incidents??   Apple, Google, Garmin and a host of others cover themselves with lawyer talk and the ability to fund a SERIOUS defense in court.

What I would like to see.

Full disclosure of the databases that the GPS uses and their dates and sources.  To make it functional, I would like to point at a road and have it return the database information used.....for example.  US Census Tiger file, data last checked 1980, updated 2000.  

If I a traveling on a Forest Service or BLM road, well that tells me a LOT about the reliability of the road information.

It is an interesting question.  Given the reliance on Apple, Google and other GPS systems should somebody be doing a review of the mapping??  It was a major issue in Australia a few years ago with Apple mapping.

BIG TECH is pretty much unregulated in this country.  Maybe it is time to change that and start making them responsible for their improving the quality of their product.

Right now ALL THEY ARE DOING is taking government databases and writing software to display the Global Positioning Satellite data onto the government databases.  PERIOD.

I don't think, outside the urban areas, they do any quality control or review of the databases.  I suspect, THEY DON'T even know what information and databases are in their products.  

Their profit, is in free data and information packaged with their computer displays running their software.  

It is very expensive to validate data, they don't do it, except in urban areas as noted.

 

 

Edited by Vladimir

Vladimr Steblina

Retired Forester...exploring the public lands.

usbackroads.blogspot.com

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25 minutes ago, Vladimir said:

I am NOT even sure WHO has jurisdiction to investigate "multiple GPS" incidents?? 

In the first part you are answering questions that someone might ask but not me. Your understanding is correct in that the early GPS was developed by the military and the missile submarines that I served on in the 1960's would go up near the surface with an antenna poking above water to check positions for updating missile guidance systems and the missiles used it as well. I suspect that I have at least as much knowledge of GPS as you. But it does matter to me what GPS they were using if it actually directed them to that road and it also matters what maps and if both were current. All GPS use an algorithm that is similar, but the electronics of each unit is proprietary as is most of the firmware and that is updated periodically along with the maps. 

A GPS receiver calculates its position by precisely timing the signals sent by GPS satellites high above the Earth. Each satellite continually transmits messages that include the time the message was transmitted and the satellite position at the time of message transmission.

I do not believe that there is anyone who investigates these incidents and that is the reason that we will never know just what actually happened. 

Edited by Kirk W

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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Here are a couple photos of the RV/car recovery.  It looks like they may have tried to turn the RV around in a wide spot.

https://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/photos-show-missing-couples-last-days-of-ill-fated-journey/#:~:text=RENO (KLAS) — The RV,our most bittersweet recoveries yet.”

Full-timed for 16 Years
Traveled 8 yr in a 2004 Newmar Dutch Star 40' Motorhome
and 8 yr in a 33' Travel Supreme 5th Wheel

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Well, my new $69.99 7" OHREX trucker/RV GPS arrived last Wed. My brief use of it is this:  It is accurate, very unwieldy to use, and comes off as clunky. Lifetime maps are out of user control, the update comes on a micro-card whenever the all woman Chinese company decides to issue an update.(IF you register on their website) What did I expect for the money, they've only been designing it since 2003?

I have 30 days from receipt to return to Amazon with full refund.

Edited by Ray,IN

 

2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA ." And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.  John F. Kennedy 20 Jan 1961

 

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9 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

I have 30 days from receipt to return to Amazon with full refund.

For me, I think that I would test for a week or so, then return it. Ease of use and to update would be very important to me. Thanks for the report as I am sure that many of us have considered one of the less costly alternatives to the US brands.

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

            images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqFswi_bvvojaMvanTWAI

 

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In discussions with a number of folks over the years since "personal" GPS units became popular that were complaining abut the bad roads they were sent over, in almost every case, the "shortest route" or similar setting had been used. In checking a number of routings on my Garmin GPS using that setting, I found more than once that I was supposed to take unimproved or poorly maintained roads. On the other hand, the "fastest route" setting nearly always picked primary and secondary highways, only going to gravel or dirt roads when they were the only access to the final destination.

Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F-53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/brake system

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A lot of us (RVers) will never understand how this could happen. Our analytical minds want to dissect each tidbit of information and identify what caused this tragedy. It has been talked about on a lot of different RV forums. I even looked up the coordinates of where the car was found to help understand how they got to where they were. In the end, we will never fully understand it, even if we had all the data,  its what we take away from this tragedy that counts.

 This is a tragic object lesson to learn from, reading through it. Even something as simple as changing a tire along the road can be a bad decision and put you in a dangerous situation before you know it. Take anyone from any metropolitan city and stick them in a desert where they have never been, within the age group and health issues given, give them a set of circumstances to work through, what would you expect.

Some may come away from this thinking "this could never happen to us", "we are smarter than that", but are we really?
You could have all the right toys possible - RV trip planning tools, RV GPS, RV road atlas, satellite phones and sat GPS, flares, caution lights, triangles, vests, etc., but it can all boil down to the decisions you make.
 

When in doubt - don't, trust but verify, don't blindly follow anything, you think you have never had a problem doing something particular in all the years you have been RVing - until it happens! Even our own arrogance clouds our judgment and will get us in trouble. 

Take Care Out There
 

Steve & Tami Cass, Fulltime Somewhere

2018 Ram 3500 DRW / 2019 Grand Design Solitude 3350RL S-Class. Texas Class A Drivers License

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4 hours ago, Dutch_12078 said:

In discussions with a number of folks over the years since "personal" GPS units became popular that were complaining abut the bad roads they were sent over, in almost every case, the "shortest route" or similar setting had been used. In checking a number of routings on my Garmin GPS using that setting, I found more than once that I was supposed to take unimproved or poorly maintained roads. On the other hand, the "fastest route" setting nearly always picked primary and secondary highways, only going to gravel or dirt roads when they were the only access to the final destination.

That is generally the case, BUT in some cases the "fastest route" might take you where you don't want to be!!!

That is the problem.  There is NO SUBSTITUTION for YOUR JUDGEMENT.  

The good news is that with "AI".....this problem will get worse, and worse over the years.  AND maybe at some point, we will go back to the "good old days" where you were responsible for YOU>

Really folks, it is YOUR LIFE, take responsibility for it. 

Do you really want to turn over YOUR LIFE to a computer nerd than has NEVER been off-pavement, let along in central Nevada??

 

 

Vladimr Steblina

Retired Forester...exploring the public lands.

usbackroads.blogspot.com

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2 hours ago, Vladimir said:

That is generally the case, BUT in some cases the "fastest route" might take you where you don't want to be!!!

That is the problem.  There is NO SUBSTITUTION for YOUR JUDGEMENT.  

The good news is that with "AI".....this problem will get worse, and worse over the years.  AND maybe at some point, we will go back to the "good old days" where you were responsible for YOU>

Really folks, it is YOUR LIFE, take responsibility for it. 

Do you really want to turn over YOUR LIFE to a computer nerd than has NEVER been off-pavement, let along in central Nevada??

 

 

You're preaching to the choir, Vlad... ;)

Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F-53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/brake system

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On 4/13/2022 at 1:55 PM, Vladimir said:

 For example, I would NEVER drive a dirt road in the dark for the first time IF I could avoid it.  I have a vacation rental located on a dirt road.  I keep telling people, get here before DARK.  Yeah, want to know how times I have gone out looking for LOST guests.  This is on a simple road, you really have to work at it to get lost.

We lived in a location where GPS was totally wrong.  If you relied on it to find our place, you'd never find it except out of sheer luck.  I always gave people directions to our place and told them NOT to use their GPS to find us.  Most people listened, some did not, and for those people we'd have to go find them and lead them back to our place.

LindaH
2014 Winnebago Aspect 27K
2011 Kia Soul

 

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43 minutes ago, LindaH said:

We lived in a location where GPS was totally wrong.  If you relied on it to find our place, you'd never find it except out of sheer luck.  I always gave people directions to our place and told them NOT to use their GPS to find us.  Most people listened, some did not, and for those people we'd have to go find them and lead them back to our place.

There are also some RV parks that state "Don't follow your GPS.  Use these directions: .... "

Full-timed for 16 Years
Traveled 8 yr in a 2004 Newmar Dutch Star 40' Motorhome
and 8 yr in a 33' Travel Supreme 5th Wheel

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I've always come close to obsessing over our route with the RV.  At the same time I've never wanted a RV or trucker GPS, preferring to do my own research.  Google Maps is my main mapping tool.  I've often zoomed right into the street view mode to get a good look at a section of highway.  I've even used it to read clearance signs on bridges.  Without zooming in, though, I've found that if I get close enough to spot an 18 wheeler or two I know I can make it through too.  (Also, the trucker's mountain guide is a terrific tool.)

Really, fooling with routes and stuff like that is practically one of my hobbies so, unlike many people, I don't see it as a chore at all.

I've often put waypoints in to force Google Maps to take me a particular route.  Also, I've been known to pull off into a parking lot to recheck my route if I've come upon unexpected construction or an accident.  Better to do that than blindly following signs detouring traffic into a residential area.

Our "Here and There" Blog

 

2005 Safari Cheetah Motorhome

 

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4 minutes ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:


Really, fooling with routes and stuff like that is practically one of my hobbies so, unlike many people, I don't see it as a chore at all.

 

There are a least two of us doing it your way!!  I plan with paper maps and then create a GPS map with many waypoints so we can see what WE want to.  Never got lost using a variety of paper maps.

Full-timed for 16 Years
Traveled 8 yr in a 2004 Newmar Dutch Star 40' Motorhome
and 8 yr in a 33' Travel Supreme 5th Wheel

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Rather than complaining and telling people to not follow gps, those campgrounds simply need to send map corrections to the gps companies, who forward them to the mappers. I've done it a couple of times with Garmin and the maps were corrected on the next update.

-C&J-

 

CG reviews & more - www.fugawetribe.com

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