Missing couple in motorhome, thought to be in Nevada

[sandsys]

1 hour ago, pjstough said:

You should read or listen to the wife talking about taking this road. They were not concerned because even though the road was rough gravel, and the toad bounced around a lot they said they saw other vehicles on this road which diminished their concern.  Again, they simply did not recognize the risk they were taking until it was too late.

When you think you are on the right road you have no reason to question it. That happened to us twice. The second time, we were heading to meet friends who had given us directions; we simply misinterpreted "the road behind the gas station" so we went beyond the station before turning when we should have turned right at the station. It is easy to think you know what you are doing until you get stuck someplace you didn't mean to be.

Linda

[2gypsies]

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

I have yet to find that narrative. Got a link to it? 

Read my last updated link above?  Here are some comments:   "

Travis Peters, the couple's nephew and a longtime photographer and editor at 13News, said his aunt and uncle were very intelligent people. Ronnie was a proud U.S. Air Force veteran who loved antique radios and was ahead of the curve when it came to technology.

Beverly worked for defense contractors and also loved technology"

"As a lot of people suspected, it was bad GPS directions," Peters said. 

A short time later, however, a rescuer heard a car horn. It was Beverly, honking out "SOS" in Morse code, just as Ronnie taught her during the week.

It sounds like this wasn't a cognitive issue.

EDIT: I just looked at the You Tube video & the nephew stated they saw campers along the way so they probably didn't pass RVs on the road; they just saw them camping.

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by 2gypsies

[Kirk W]

What was said was to listen to her talk about her experience. That was more of her nephew telling us about what she said to him. I did see what the nephew has posted on Facebook. 

[GR "Scott" Cundiff]

I'll mention that my feelings about it being a GPS error are influenced by the location of the car.  Reports are that she had sent a text asking for help.  Unfortunately, the text wasn't sent until she was rescued and the phone found a cell tower.  Her text was coordinates and the word "help."  I looked up the coordinates and tried to figure out how a GPS could direct someone to that area.  Again, I don't now what kind of GPS they were using, but Google Maps will only direct me to that spot if I put the actual coordinates of that spot as the destination.  It never includes that road otherwise.  The coordinates are: 37.757753, -117.809568 - check it out to see where the car was.

[pjstough]

That location makes no sense.  I read that they found them by Silver Peak. Looks like their gps had them turn off SR 95 at 265 down to Silver Peak and then east and would come back to SR95 just north of Goldfield.

Edited April 10, 2022 by pjstough

[GR "Scott" Cundiff]

44 minutes ago, pjstough said:

That location makes no sense.  I read that they found them by Silver Peak. Looks like their gps had them turn off SR 95 at 265 down to Silver Peak and then east and would come back to SR95 just north of Goldfield.

Here's one of the news stories that gives the coordinates.  Also, the final cell phone ping came from Dyer, which is west of where they were found.  Apparently, after they left Luning and ended up on HWY 360 or maybe went on down 90 but turned west on 6 then south on 773.

Another interesting tidbit - there is a disbursed camping area about 12 miles from where they were found.  It is Fish Lake Valley Hot Well.  I found an account from one adventurous camper who actually took a Safari motorhome across from Silver Peak headed for that spot, however, he said he turned back a few miles short of the Hot Well because of snow - so it could be done.  Most people, though arrive at the Hot Well from the west rather than the east.

I enjoy maps and this kind of research so I've spent some time (as you can tell) trying to understand how they ended up where they did.

[jbh]

Seems to me that with an erroneous setting on the gps, the gps was doing exactly what it was told to do. On my gps there's a setting for "avoid unpaved roads."

Also, gps settings can be rather obtuse. On mine there's a setting for "avoid highways" but it really only refers to Interstates.

That said, of course there are map errors, which are rather common.

Edited April 10, 2022 by jbh

[Vladimir]

22 hours ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

I'll mention that my feelings about it being a GPS error are influenced by the location of the car.  Reports are that she had sent a text asking for help.  Unfortunately, the text wasn't sent until she was rescued and the phone found a cell tower.  Her text was coordinates and the word "help."  I looked up the coordinates and tried to figure out how a GPS could direct someone to that area.  Again, I don't now what kind of GPS they were using, but Google Maps will only direct me to that spot if I put the actual coordinates of that spot as the destination.  It never includes that road otherwise.  The coordinates are: 37.757753, -117.809568 - check it out to see where the car was.

Lots of comments.

GPS maps are "data".  They are NOT reality.  Just data that the various companies gathered from government databases and included them in THEIR GPS maps.

For example, GPS companies for years used the Census Tiger files as a base layer in their maps.  The Census is very interested in roads with HOUSES.  The purpose of the Census is to count people that in most cases live in houses.  Tiger files are fine, IF there are homes in the area.  Oh, new roads, well those are an adventure since most temporary Census employees are clueless when it comes to maps.  But they are the ones that MAP the new roads.

County GIS databases are also "pirated" by the GPS companies.  The Counties don't make the maps for GPS use, they make them for THEIR purposes.  Counties don't need a map of their roads, except as a filing tool for the attribute database. 

GPS companies sometimes use the attributes, and sometimes they do not.

In Washington state, county roads even if impassable are never dropped from the roads database.  The state of Washington pays the counties for miles of county roads.  Every year, I stop a couple of folks religiously following their GPS thinking they were on a GREAT shortcut.  Except the road is impassable and has been for decades.  Traveling in California, I found that at county lines, the speed limit disappeared and appeared based on county lines!!!  

I have NOT found a GPS company that has used the Forest Service or BLM roads layer.  The Forest Service for years had internal "fire maps" that showed ALL roads, helispots, etc. etc. complete with road numbers.  They were so popular that the Forest Service started selling them to the public, and then decided to make Ranger District maps from the firemans maps.  The first thing, the Ranger Districts, wanted to delete a few roads that they not want the public accessing.  Right, now you have a PARTIAL road map.

You get the drift.  Maps are made for specific purposes.  NOBODY makes a map for RV's traveling the public lands.  BTW, the Forest Service recreation maps ONLY show where the Forest Service thinks and wants you to visit!!

When I was working I always told people that "they had the right to kill themselves on the public lands, and remember call the County Sheriff, not the Forest Service.  The Sheriff has the authority to handle it."

I LOVE my GPS. 

I still have my treasure trove of public lands maps.  I know where I am going on a paper map, and then when the GPS says go here instead, well I usually ignore it.  Because for the reasons above, the GPS is usually wrong from a variety of perspectives.

The good news is the GPS really isn't that BAD, given the millions of people using it and how few serious incidents of people dying we have as a result.

The bad news, artificial intelligence, well it is based on databases created for OTHER purposes just like GPS.  

What could go wrong??

I remember the phrase "don't trust anybody over 30".  

Hmmm, maybe time to replace that with "don't trust a computer output".

 

[Vladimir]

Last gripe and I don't know if it came up in this case.

Apple decided to drop the decimal format for lat and long on their cell phones.

First responders appealed to Apple to reinstate the decimal format since EVERYBODY in the first responder field uses it and it is pretty much the default.  It is also much simpler than degrees, minutes, and seconds format.

APPLE REFUSED.

Not sure if she had a IPHONE or an Android phone.  Not sure if she knew the difference between decimal format and degrees, minutes and seconds.

But it is a pain using an IPHONE.

I have no clue why APPLE refuses to display decimal format for lat and long for their phones.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Vladimir

[Vladimir]

On 4/9/2022 at 11:48 AM, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

There's a good chance that the road in the photo is the one they turned down.  If not, it would be one like it.  Honestly, had I tried to take our rig down a road like that I would have faced a mutiny in the passenger seat unless there was a campground or at least other RVs in plain sight.  Again, just trying to understand the "they followed the GPS" explanation.  

With just that picture....I would go down that road and probably most people on this forum.

There is NOTHING wrong with that road at THIS POINT.  In fact, it looks really good like it might go through those hills off in the distance.

Several things that would concern me is that as roads leave pavement, they get worse not better. The one exception is the Clearwater National Forest in Idaho, but that is a different story.

A major thru route even on dirt or gravel roads would show MORE traffic impacts to the road than the picture shows.

I would have stopped at this point and reassesed. 

BUT, hey maybe that Forestry degree and 50 years of work experience did teach me something.

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Vladimir

[2gypsies]

1 hour ago, Vladimir said:

 

I have NOT found a GPS company that has used the Forest Service or BLM roads layer.  NOBODY makes a map for RV's traveling the public lands.  BTW, the Forest Service recreation maps ONLY show where the Forest Service thinks and wants you to visit!!

 

Maybe I'm not understanding you but we used Delorme's mapping program and it showed forest and BLM roads when we were 4-wheeling.  Our handheld Garmin was used on forest service lands when geocaching.

[GR "Scott" Cundiff]

1 hour ago, Vladimir said:

With just that picture....I would go down that road and probably most people on this forum.

There is NOTHING wrong with that road at THIS POINT.  In fact, it looks really good like it might go through those hills off in the distance.

 

Yeah, I think you are right.  I'd go down it if I was turning at a sign pointing to my intended campground or camping area a mile or so that-a-way.   However, if I had Las Vegas punched in the GPS I wouldn't mistake it for the route there.  

[Lou Schneider]

1 hour ago, Vladimir said:

With just that picture....I would go down that road and probably most people on this forum.

At 10 o'clock at night in an unfamiliar area?

[Vladimir]

1 hour ago, 2gypsies said:

Maybe I'm not understanding you but we used Delorme's mapping program and it showed forest and BLM roads when we were 4-wheeling.  Our handheld Garmin was used on forest service lands when geocaching.

The Delorme's maps used the Tiger files from the Census.  That I do know.  

They do show Forest Service and BLM roads, but THAT was NOT the primary purpose of the map.  The information sown therefore, might not be suitable for navigation on Forest Service and BLM roads.

Try this link:  https://www.avenza.com/avenza-maps/

The Forest Service entered into an agreement with them.  They post plenty of FREE Forest Service maps and well as sell digital copies of Forest Service and BLM recreation maps.

I have used them on fires.  The Fire Teams would upload the fire maps through them.  You won't have access to the fire maps,  but if traveling the backroads this is a really handy information source for maps.

Your really want to Forest Service "fireman's" maps or the Travel Plan maps or whatever they call them these days.  I do know avenza has the travel plan maps on their web site for free.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Vladimir

[GR "Scott" Cundiff]

2 hours ago, Vladimir said:

Lots of comments.

 

Won't quote your entire post, but thanks for the interesting information on map sources.  

The only GPS I use is the Google Maps one on my phone and I don't really trust it all that much - usually verifying the route using street view.  Anyway, thanks for the informative post.

[Vladimir]

1 hour ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

Yeah, I think you are right.  I'd go down it if I was turning at a sign pointing to my intended campground or camping area a mile or so that-a-way.   However, if I had Las Vegas punched in the GPS I wouldn't mistake it for the route there.  

I drove to Sun Valley for 70 miles on Forest Service DIRT backroads. 

Not sure if I was using a GPS in those days or not, but today it would have been in my GPS.  That is what I wanted to do, to see the hot springs along the route as I had all day to get to my destination. 

Granted, I would be more than prepared to ignore it.

One advantage to using a GPS on backroads is that it leaves a breadcrumb trail for the route OUT.

 

1 hour ago, Lou Schneider said:

At 10 o'clock at night in an unfamiliar area?

Good point, I would have been camped at least six hours previously. 

Poor judgement.  You don't want to drive unfamilar dirt roads in the dark, unless you have to do it!!!

Edited April 10, 2022 by Vladimir

[kb0zke]

Nearly 10 years ago now Jo Ann and I had a job listing homes for a survey. We had to drive down every road and list the address and description of each house. Went down one road and found only a communications tower, but it looked like the road continued, so we did, too. Pretty soon the "road" was not much wider than the car and the surface of the ground on either side was above the windows. The car was a Mercury Mountaineer with 4WD, but it wasn't intended for real off-road driving. Seemed like hours, but was probably only a few minutes and the "road" opened up in a field. If necessary I could have turned around and driven back up the "road" but the gate was open so we just drove on out. Don't know if anyone in the farmhouse saw us, or if they did, wondered what we were doing there. Went back around to where we started and talked to a man who had seen us go past earlier. He knew there wasn't anything that way and wondered how we managed to get back. We told him we took the road by the tower. He said that isn't a road! Yes, the "road" was marked on the map we were given for the job.

Another time a particular road had one name on the map, another on the GPS, and the street signs at the top and bottom of the road each had different names. We never did figure out what the proper name of that street was.

Moral of the stories is don't completely believe anything but what your eyes tell you is in front of you. Maps and GPS are just tools, made by humans, and can and do have mistakes.

[LindaH]

22 hours ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

I enjoy maps and this kind of research so I've spent some time (as you can tell) trying to understand how they ended up where they did.

If you enjoy this type of thing, you may be interested in reading (if you haven't already done so) Tom Mahood's account of the Death Valley Germans.

I did the same thing with this story -- got my maps out and tried to follow along.

Edited April 11, 2022 by LindaH

[GR "Scott" Cundiff]

5 minutes ago, LindaH said:

If you enjoy this type of thing, you may be interested in reading (if you haven't already done so) Tom Mahood's account of the Death Valley Germans.

I did the same thing with this story -- got my maps out and tried to follow along.

Thanks!

[Kirk W]

5 hours ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

However, if I had Las Vegas punched in the GPS I wouldn't mistake it for the route there. 

5 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

At 10 o'clock at night in an unfamiliar area?

It is called common sense, but it does seem to not be all that common. It was at night, traveling between two well known cities and the occupants were both people with health issues. How could anyone not realize that the best route from Reno to Las Vegas would not include any unmarked gravel roads? There is way more to this story than we know or probably ever will know. 

[sandsys]

33 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

It is called common sense, but it does seem to not be all that common. It was at night, traveling between two well known cities and the occupants were both people with health issues. How could anyone not realize that the best route from Reno to Las Vegas would not include any unmarked gravel roads? There is way more to this story than we know or probably ever will know. 

It made me think about how some animals go off into the boonies to die alone. If it hadn't been for them using the car horn to tap out SOS...  

Linda

[packnrat]

i do not get it?  how could anyone get onto a off road dirt/rocky jeep trail. while driving down a paved hwy?

were they just trying to find a secluded camping spot? if so when it turned to less than a "smooth" dirt/gravel rd they should have stopped. and reversed, back to better roads.

 

very bad he died.  i hope some will learn from this, to be prepared. if sat phones get cheap, they would be well worth the cost.

but so many out there just do not understand nature. as we have lived in a cared for life, with everything right at hand. just the fools trying to get to reno during a "easy" snow storm over donner pass. shorts flip-flops, no anything. if there lucky the snow chains they bought a couple hrs back will fit there tires/car. i have seen chains on the rear tires. when it is a front wheel drive car.

[pjstough]

From what I read the wife said that they didnt believe they were in any danger until the car got stuck.

[sandsys]

10 hours ago, packnrat said:

when it turned to less than a "smooth" dirt/gravel rd they should have stopped. and reversed, back to better roads.

Unless stopping to reverse is why they got stuck. Things in motion tend to stay in motion but things at rest tend to stay at rest.

Linda

[Ray,IN]

13 hours ago, packnrat said:

i do not get it?  how could anyone get onto a off road dirt/rocky jeep trail. while driving down a paved hwy?

were they just trying to find a secluded camping spot? if so when it turned to less than a "smooth" dirt/gravel rd they should have stopped. and reversed, back to better roads.

 

very bad he died.  i hope some will learn from this, to be prepared. if sat phones get cheap, they would be well worth the cost.

but so many out there just do not understand nature. as we have lived in a cared for life, with everything right at hand. just the fools trying to get to reno during a "easy" snow storm over donner pass. shorts flip-flops, no anything. if there lucky the snow chains they bought a couple hrs back will fit there tires/car. i have seen chains on the rear tires. when it is a front wheel drive car.

In 2012, during an AK caravan, we were told "DO NOT USE YOUR GPS, INSTEAD FOLLOW MY WRITTEN DIRECTIONS". Well, one man used his GPS because he wanted to go slow and watch for wildlife. He was on a 2-lane paved highway, turned onto a gravel road, which turned into a dirt road, which turned into a fire lane in heavy woods. All this time his GPS was telling him he was on the correct road.

The highway he was supposed to be on, and GPS said he was on, was 3/4 mile further ahead on the first 2-lane highway.

When he finally admitted to his wife he had made a mistake, they had to unhook the towed, make(in his words) a 15-point turn around after backing up about 1/2 mile, then reattach the towed so they could follow the written directions. Now this man was a college graduate and retired business owner about 67 years old.

The moral of this story;  USA GPS units are not accurate in North Central Canada..

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Ray,IN