Might happen in other states

[trimster]

If this works out for utah (and it will) other states will follow.

https://drivinvibin.com/2021/12/06/willow-springs-trail/

 

[agesilaus]

Utah has so many Boondocking spots that they would have to declare half the state as stste parks. Most on federal land too. so the state does not control them.

[Kirk W]

9 hours ago, agesilaus said:

Most on federal land too. so the state does not control them.

That first post doesn't link to an unbiased site and there were public hearings in the process. Here is a very different view of the decision which comes from Utah.

Quote

Sadly, this amazing area is experiencing enormous damage. It is heavily utilized for recreation and camping. During busy events in Moab, there is potentially up to 100 camping units in the area. This is all without any current camping or restroom infrastructure.

The case for Utahraptor State Park

[trimster]

Thanks for finding that extra info. I've been by there when it's busy. There's aLOT of campers out there.

[agesilaus]

No doubt that lots of boondocking areas are overloaded. Valley of the Gods for example. I have stopped publishing locations for that reason. Unless they are well known already. Carabella outside Gardiner/Yellowstone is a prime example. There must has been more than 50 rigs there when we camped 2 years ago. Not to say that the place was trashed everyone seemed to be well behaved in that case. But this year we found that the BLM had turned it into a designated camping area with fewer than 20 camping spots. Much nicer sites but many fewer get to use the place. Stll free but one spot has hookups making me think that a cg host is in the plans which will probably convert it to a pay cg.

The parks themselves have caused a lot of the overcrowding by closing their internal cg temporarily because of the 'plague panic'. YNP must have closed more than half their internal spots leaving few places for campers to go. This despite the fact that camping is one of the safest activities you can engage in during the 'panic'.

Yosemite is closing many of their campgrounds next season.

These parks need to be enlarging and improving their camps not reducing their numbers.

Edited December 13, 2021 by agesilaus

[trimster]

Seems YNP is doing major upgrades to their CGs. They really need it to accomodate the larger rigs, etc.  The visitor pressure on NPs is staggering now. 

[agesilaus]

I assume you mean Yosemite for YNP which generally means Yellowstone. Confusing that two major parks both begin with a 'Y'. Yes they need to be upgraded but this still will create an even worse situation in Yosemite for up to 2 years.

Edited December 13, 2021 by agesilaus

[trimster]

Yellowstone

[Kirk W]

1 hour ago, trimster said:

The visitor pressure on NPs is staggering now. 

The national parks have long had major budget problems and it doesn't look like it will improve very soon. Congress has continued to add new national parks and monuments for the park service to manage with little or no increase in budget. Tax payers want more facilities but don't like the parks increasing fees or Congress increasing taxes to pay for them. I have been an RV volunteer in 5 national parks and 9 national wildlife refuges and I can assure people that there is very little wasted money in the park systems today. More and more is being done by volunteers or not done at all for lack of funds. And when a park does undertake upgrades to the campgrounds and other facilities they get criticized for that too. Things just take longer in Yellowstone where construction work can only be done for about 5 months of the year and larger sites mean fewer sites unless the campgrounds are expanded, which also brings increased cost. And to complicate things even more, they must deal with the environmental groups who want the parks kept pristine and would remove all services. The national parks and wildlife refuges of the USA are unique in the world and are seldom appreciated like they should be. 

Back when we first began to use the National & State parks, as well as other federal lands, (in the late 60's) we rarely had any problems finding campsites because all of the RVs were smaller and more of the visitors used tents. When you were boondocking you were usually alone or very close to it and sites were never crowded. Even the gatherings at Quartzsite were pretty scattered before the "big show" was started in 1984. The US population was 235 million in 1984, compared to 330 million today. 

[trailertraveler]

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

The national parks have long had major budget problems and it doesn't look like it will improve very soon.

It appears the recently passed Infrastructure Bill may provide some help for the parks. The Great American Outdoors Act passed in July of 2020 allocated funding for about half of the Park Service deferred maintainence backlog. Projects using that funding are likely just starting or still in the planning stages.

[agesilaus]

Waot one, didn't the last congress and president pass a major new funding bill for the parks?? Billions for maintenance?

 

Quote

On July 22, 2020, Congress passed the Great American Outdoors Act, legislation that will dedicate $1.3 billion per year for five years to deferred maintenance projects in the National Park Service's nearly $12 billion backlog of needed repair work. President Trump signed the bill into law on August 4, 2020

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by agesilaus

[Kirk W]

1 hour ago, agesilaus said:

didn't the last congress and president pass a major new funding bill for the parks?

While they did add some funds for past maintenance, it was not 100% of it and it takes time for catchup to happen. 

Quote

In the landmark Great American Outdoors Act, enacted in 2020, Congress stabilized the funding stream for the LWCF at $900 million annually. The law also created the LRF to provide $1.9 billion per year over five years to address deferred maintenance in national parks, national forests and other sites.

A 2018 National Park Service study found about $12 billion of overdue maintenance in the agency.

The quote comes from a news story back in June that was in support of the bill which was passed and signed.

National parks struggling with maintenance would get a boost under Biden budget request

[agesilaus]

Well 1.9 billion/yr for 5 years gives 9.5 billion with a supposed 12 billion backlog. So it takes a major bite out of that backlog. And how much money can the parks effectively absorb a year anyway? Remember Obamas stimulus where the targets of the money blizzard could not spend all that money, a bunch (danke Gott!) ended up coming back unspent.

[mptjelgin]

13 minutes ago, agesilaus said:

Well 1.9 billion/yr for 5 years gives 9.5 billion with a supposed 12 billion backlog. So it takes a major bite out of that backlog. And how much money can the parks effectively absorb a year anyway? Remember Obamas stimulus where the targets of the money blizzard could not spend all that money, a bunch (danke Gott!) ended up coming back unspent.

We dealt with this when I worked for a state DOT. The legislature would suddenly decide to rain money down in one huge lump, to "catch up" with years of deferred construction and maintenance. And it came with the insistence that things would be done "right now!!!".  The result was that the entire system was overloaded (planning, design, construction, inspection), prices soared, and the "bang-for-the-buck' was severely diluted. If construction prices double and you only get half of the "payoff", was it a good idea?

It makes more sense to establish a long-term budget that allows, (gasp), long-term planning and execution for all parties involved. Choking off funding for years, and then suddenly dramatically increasing spending really doesn't work efficiently. The money will get spent, but the results will be less than they could have been. 

[Blues]

8 hours ago, agesilaus said:

The parks themselves have caused a lot of the overcrowding by closing their internal cg temporarily because of the 'plague panic'. YNP must have closed more than half their internal spots leaving few places for campers to go. This despite the fact that camping is one of the safest activities you can engage in during the 'panic'.

While camping can be an effective way to stay away from people, that's not the only consideration.  Limiting the number of places where people can stay reduces the number of people who come to an area, which reduces the pressure on the resources in the area, and it can be especially helpful to do so at a time when resources are already being stretched.

[Zulu]

8 hours ago, agesilaus said:

The parks themselves have caused a lot of the overcrowding by closing their internal cg temporarily because of the 'plague panic' . . . Yosemite is closing many of their campgrounds next season.

No, several Yosemite campgrounds are being closed for rehabilitation, nothing Covid-related.

Talk about beating a dead horse.

 

8 hours ago, agesilaus said:

These parks need to be enlarging and improving their camps not reducing their numbers.

Sure, also maybe some water slides, ATV trails, lots of concessions, carny rides, etc.

As it stands, too many visitors. I'm for limiting access.

[2gypsies]

5 hours ago, agesilaus said:

Well 1.9 billion/yr for 5 years gives 9.5 billion with a supposed 12 billion backlog. So it takes a major bite out of that backlog. And how much money can the parks effectively absorb a year anyway? 

.... and even more backlog is created during the 5 yr.  The money is spread over all the parks in the country; not just a few.  Backlog just keeps building.  The parks are hurting.  Visitors don't see it.  It's behind the scene need .... water pipes, buildings, road repair, etc.  There would never be enough campgrounds to satisfy the public.  The more they'd build people would want more.  Eyesores.

Also, 5 million + deaths isn't just 'panic' or 'theater'!!

[Vladimir]

"Might happen in other states."

 

The issue does now "flow" from state to state.  The issue flows from agency to agency.

What happens in Utah, is not that important unless it happens on Forest Service, BLM, or NPS managed land.  That has national implications in a short period of time.  

Granted, trends in Utah reflect agency management concerns that need to be decided.  Those decisions will "eventually" be reflected in other states management.

BUT, the stuff to pay attention to is agency specific.  Those changes can come quickly.

 

[trimster]

My thought for posting this as I did , was based on states needs for revenues from their public land. 

You are spot on with the agency stuff. 

But if Wyoming,  for example,  sees Utah making a buck with their land use change, Wyoming might just follow along.

[packnrat]

Yosemite has a great way to stop overcrowding. every camping spot, including hike in. are reserved

and at the gate only so many in. then one has to leave, before one can enter..

does nothing for the people count, as the tourist buses are exempt.

i say bring back the yosemite valley railroad.  https://www.yosemitevalleyrr.com/

it would be a great way to reduce the traffic in the valley. and be a great tourist attraction in and of it's self.