Special Licensing for RV's

[Pappy Yokum]

One more on CA DMV....

If you read my previous post - try this "addendum":

My existing  5 yr Class C Drivers License expired on my birthday this year.  A couple of months prior to that, I received notice of same.  It indicated I needed to take the a written exam and an eye test.  Also, I could sign up on line (I assumed for an appt), and pay the appropriate fees.

On the CA DMV website, I paid the fee via credit card - but was not able to make an appointment.  So I went over to my local DMV - figured I would make the appt in person.  Complete ZOO - with two lines outside, one for folks with appts, one for folks without.  From past experience/s, I knew the one w/out was for "walk-ins", but I only wanted to "make" an appt.

So, I politely "by-passed" both and asked the guy at the table (while displaying my letter) if I could simply make an appt.  he asked if I had paid my fees, (Yes) - He then gestured to a female security guard at the door - so I "moved on" to her, explaining why I was there.  She was quite friendly, but had no answer.  So "we" went back out to the guy at the desk.  He said, if I had paid my fees -  I didn't need to do *anything else* - my license would arrive in the mail in about a month.  Of course, I thought he had been sipping some "bubbly" under the table, and left.

Sure enough - my new Class C DL arrived with an expiration date of my birthday in 2026!

FYI - on reverse:  - (quotation marks are mine)

"CLASS: CLass C & M1-Veh w/GVWR <2600; No A; 2whl M/C,Mtr-drvn Cycl, Scooter. ENDORSEMENTS: None

RESTRICTIONS: 41-Class A restricted to operating 5th wheel travel trailer between 10,000 and 15,000 GVWR"  (end quotes - which read exactly like my previous DL)

BTW - I guess they know my eyesight is 20/20  w/out correction, and I've passed all the tests previously by osmosis, and no violations. - ROTFL !!

Edited September 27, 2021 by Pappy Yokum
DMV was easier than this edit, LOL

[Ray,IN]

Well pappy they know you can walk and talk and are able to drive there, what else is there?👻

[Pappy Yokum]

1 hour ago, Ray,IN said:

Well pappy they know you can walk and talk and are able to drive there, what else is there?👻

You weren't the guy at the outside table - with the two long lines - were you?

If so - you did good!!

😁

[Star Dreamer]

In South Carolina there are actually two types of driver's license that may be required. 

A Class E is required if the motorhome is over 26000#. 

A Class F is required if the motorhome is pulling a trailer where the combined weight is over 26000#. 

I can't remember how it is worded for a pickup pulling a trailer. 

In our case the wife can drive our HDT on her regular car license because it is titled as a motorhome and is under 26k#. But as soon as I hook up our trailer, I have to have my class F license as we are over 40k# Combined Weight. 

Many locals are not aware of these license requirements. I researched it because we were moving from MN where we could drive our setup with our regular car license (states all RVs are Ok)  but knew that all states were not the same. 

[Lou Schneider]

Several years ago I was living in Los Angeles and purchased a Sunnybrook trailer from a private party in Las Vegas.   Found it on Craigslist and I drove out there, completed the transaction and hitched the trailer to my truck.

This was right after Governor Brown approved issuing drivers licenses to undocumented immigrants.  The lines at every DMV office in the Los Angeles area were horrendous, out the door and several times around the parking lot.  They had even brought in porta-potties and several food trucks were doing a booming business.

I decided to see if I could register it with my LA address at a DMV office outside of the LA area.  I drive down to Needles and walked into the DMV office there.  I was the only customer.   The two DMV employees were passing the time listening to the radio.

We completed the registration process, which included one of the agents going out to the parking lot with me to verify the trailer's VIN number engraved on the A frame. I got my new plate and registration, with pink slip to follow in the mail.  Easy peasy.

When we returned inside, another customer had joined the party by now.  I mentioned my driver's license was expiring next month and I had not received a renewal notice.  No problem, I could renew it right there if I was willing to take the written test.

I did, and passed with flying colors.  The agent then noticed I had an M motorcycle endorsement, did I want to renew it also?  I hadn't ridden a motorcycle in over 30 years, and told her such, but what the heck, why not.

So back I went to take the Class M written test.  When I brought it back to be graded, I had missed the maximum number of questions by the time she got to the last one.  She said, "well, we know this answer isn't right, would you like to change it?"  I took a wild guess at the remaining 3 answers, she smiled and said "Would you like to try again?"  I picked one of the remaining two.   She smiled again and said, "Congratulations, you passed!"

The motorcycle endorsement transferred automatically when I retired, moved to Nevada and got my Nevada driver's license the following year.

 

[Kirk W]

7 hours ago, Star Dreamer said:

I can't remember how it is worded for a pickup pulling a trailer. 

From SC DMV

Quote

Class E and F Driver's Licenses

A Class E license is required to drive non-commercial single unit vehicles with a gross vehicle weight (GVW) more than 26,000 pounds. Examples of Class E vehicles include trucks and motor homes (recreational vehicles/RVs). When you practice driving, you must be accompanied by an experienced licensed driver.

A Class F license is required to drive non-commercial combination vehicles with a GVW more than 26,000 pounds. Class F vehicles are the same as Class E vehicles plus a towed trailer or vehicle. When you practice driving, you must be accompanied by an experienced licensed driver.

 

[noteven]

All this ^ seems simple enough... 

 

[RandyA]

I sincerely doubt that my 2 cents worth is even worth a dollar in our current economy, but here goes:  I recently watched a gentleman I would "guess" to be well into his 80's climb down the steps of what appeared to be a DP of at least 40'.  He was the vehicle driver.  He was using a walker and carrying portable oxygen.  I was somewhat surprised as I remembered the rig passing me several miles back moving at a speed I interpreted from experience to be at least 15 mph faster than the 65 mph I was traveling (speed limit 70 mph).  Now, that said, he could have been the best driver on the road (but I doubt it).  I've been towing since 1973 and have learned through the school of hard knocks and experience what to do and not to do with an RV.  Below are just a FEW of the mistakes I see frequently made by (new?) folks pulling a trailer:

Exceeding the speed rating of the RV tires or highway speed limit.

Obviously overloading the RV and/or towing with too small a truck for the size of the trailer.

Incorrect setting of the "torsion bars" on a travel trailer.

Believing the torsion bars were actually "anti-say bars".

Continually following another vehicle too closely.

Not aware of or allowing for the natural "trailer track" being different than the tow vehicle when making a turn.

Failure to know that their stopping distance has increased considerably.

Using a "bumper ball" hitch on a 3/4 or 1 ton truck with a small TT (>25') with safety chains hooked to the bumper.  Maybe no brake controller???

Depending on "regular stock non-extending" outside mirrors.

While there may be many more, these are ones that serve as a "warning" sign for me to keep my distance from these vehicles as such tell me the driver is clueless.

Dealerships should instruction buyers of needed precautions but they are often not given or overlooked.

Before I could get a "concealed carry permit" or drive a boat I had to complete a supplemental class given by an independent certified company on all rules, consequences and resultant actions of my new responsibilities.  Yes, I had to pay for the classes.  I took the test, got the card and must carry it with my DL.  But, I find it strange that no such class is required for an RV!  I strongly believe it should be in all states and renewed in 5-10 years with a repeat class.  Towing or driving an RV (or large boat, trailer, etc) on the highway is vastly different than just driving a pick-up).  The highway OR the government are not the entity or place needed to learn safely.  In my experience any class taught by the government is generally poorly organized and fall short of it's intent.

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by RandyA

[Star Dreamer]

5 hours ago, Kirk W said:

From SC DMV

 

Thanks Kirk, I thought it was the same for them but it has been 5 years since I got my Class F. 

[Pappy Yokum]

Lou Schneider's post - in re:  Motorcycle test/s at the DMV -

Although I had ridden dirt M/Cs in the CA Desert and raced at Ascot Park, since I didn't have a pickup at the time, I though might as well get some (street) use out of my '67 650 Triumph.

I took the written at the DMV,  received a temp for the M/C and returned to a "less busy" DMV in San Clemente, CA for the driving test.  A female examiner came out, asked me to ride the figure eight painted on the pavement.  All was good - until she asked me to shut it off - and put the brake on (while she was watching the brake/tail light).  I had to explain my Triumph was a competition model (energy transfer ign), and did not have a battery.  She just shook her head, laughed and said, you passed.

Fast forward many years.  I had a South Dakota License.  I was returning to CA.  Went to the DMV, and because I then needed the (previously discussed) "restriction 41" - I would have to take *ALL* the written tests  for my Class C DL -   1. Standard Class C,  2. Restriction 41, and 3. Motorcycle M-1 endorsement.

Should add - when I went to the South Dakota DMV for a license, everything was "transferred" to my SD license - "Standard" DL covered everything.  Guy behind the counter even asked if I wanted my CDL - which I had not had for 8 years!  No tests, handed me my South Dakota DL 10 minutes later.

Back to CA DMV:   Breezed thru all 3 tests - or so I thought!  First two were 100%, Oops!!  - Failed the M/C.  Go back and read the manual.  Done, take it again.  Nope, two time loser!   One more try and you can't take it again for 30 days!  Made sure I answered *exactly* as the book said - - even though I knew whoever wrote the exam had never ridden a M/C in his or her life !!  Fortunately (whew!) 3rd time was a charm.  Still have the M-1 endorsement and the same '67 TR6C, 650 Triumph. 

When my CA DL was re-issued (after 5 yrs of SD DL),  it had the same number I previously had in CA (and still does) - - since I was 15 1/2 yrs old .

IMO - The CA DMV's memory is better than mine!!

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Pappy Yokum

[Lou Schneider]

Yeah, I moved from CA to WA state in 2005 and traded my CA license for a WA license.

Six years later I returned to CA and transferred my license once again.  My name and old CA drivers license number instantly came up on the DMV terminal and my new license was issued under my old number.  Once CA has you, they have you for life.

That was one reason I got on the waiting list in the Pair-A-Dice co-op and got a lot there when I retired - so I had a valid address to make a clean domicile transition out of CA.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Lou Schneider

[sandsys]

14 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

Once CA has you, they have you for life.

Minnesota, too. When we returned they said my license had been expired for too long so I had to take the written test again. Dave had renewed his shortly before we left so his was still good which meant he had to stand in much longer line to get his renewed. I was in and out quickly because the computerized test kicks you out as soon as you correctly answer the minimum number of questions. 

Linda

[Blues]

On 9/25/2021 at 9:33 AM, Kirk W said:

I found 3 very quickly and all 3 lists were the same except in the case of New Mexico, 2 states put them with commercial license required for some RVs and 1 includes them with the 10 other states that specify RV driving requires a special license.

While Campanda and RV Share tend to agree (except in the case of Michigan--RV Share doesn't mention the R endorsement), Outdoorsy differs with them on six of the 17 states listed as needing something other than a regular driver's license:  Arkansas, Michigan, New Mexico, New York, South Carolina, and Washington, DC.  Outdoorsy also cited Indiana (in addition to the 17) as requiring a CDL for over 45,000 pounds, while the other two say Indiana doesn't require any special licensing for RVs.  And while Campanda and RV Share say Wisconsin requires a special license for over 45 feet, Outdoorsy says it's for 45,000 pounds.

But even agreement among websites like these doesn't mean anything because websites get their information from other websites all the time, and there's nothing that requires them to verify the information themselves before putting it out there, never mind cite where they got their information.

In the case of something involving a law, like the class of driver's license required, there will always be a statute or administrative rule that is the true authority.  It's one of the few times on the internet when you CAN get to the real truth, instead of just relying on people's statements.  And by the way, just because a website cites a particular statute, always look it up yourself.  It might be just to the Transportation Code in general, for example, and not to the specific provision that says what the website is saying the law is.

On 9/25/2021 at 9:33 AM, Kirk W said:

Michigan being the most unique for their RR rating to tow a trailer behind a fifth wheel. 

FWIW, it's not an RR endorsement--it's an R endorsement for a recreational double.  It's sometimes referred to as a recreational double R, but that's not the same as recreational RR.

On 9/25/2021 at 9:33 AM, Kirk W said:

The following states have laws on the books requiring a commercial driver’s license for vehicles that weigh more than 26,000 pounds. 

Arkansas, Connecticut, Hawaii, Kansas, New Mexico, Washington, D.C.

I verified by reading the statutes and administrative code that one of these does not require a CDL.  I hate doing legal research on a computer so I did just the one, which is still apparently more than all three of these websites did in this case.

On 9/25/2021 at 9:33 AM, Kirk W said:

My source for each of these lists are not official government sites as I took the easy way and depended upon the work of others, but with all 3 pretty much in agreement, I believe that they can be relied upon. 

Campanada Magazine             Outdoorsey               RVShare

But by taking the easy way, you're spreading misinformation.  As I pointed out above, they're not all three pretty much in agreement, so it's obvious that some of them have to be wrong.  And even if they were all in agreement, that still doesn't mean what they're saying is true. 

[noteven]

Who here knows, without looking it up on goggle, on an air brake vehicle, what "take up" is?

Back to the subject of the thread. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by noteven

[Jaydrvr]

6 hours ago, noteven said:

Who here knows, without looking it up on goggle, on an air brake vehicle, what "take up" is?

Back to the subject of the thread. 

Interesting..

Edited October 9, 2021 by Jaydrvr

[Darryl&Rita]

3 hours ago, noteven said:

Who here knows, without looking it up on goggle, on an air brake vehicle, what "take up" is?

Back to the subject of the thread. 

Oooh, ooo, teacher! Waves hand frantically.

[podwerkz]

You're probably either referring to the mechanical slack in the S-cam activator arm on the drums themselves, or the delay in the rather long air line (and pressurization delay) from the gladhand to the brake chambers on a semi trailer. 

[noteven]

Air brake "take up" is the time elapsed from brake valve application to linings applying friction.

Edited October 10, 2021 by noteven

[noteven]

Edited - veering off topic so I hit the brakes.

Edited October 10, 2021 by noteven

[Pappy Yokum]

On 10/9/2021 at 5:44 AM, noteven said:

Who here knows, without looking it up on goggle, on an air brake vehicle, what "take up" is?

Back to the subject of the thread. 

Now that the above has been answered - and, as I'm sure you're aware -  all 50 state DMV folks follow this forum....... it will be included as a question in (either) the written or driving portion of future CDL or Non-Commercial exams!

Teacher, teacher!! ALERT!! -  - Wear long sleeve shirt for exam/s - - jot the ans on the inside of your wrist.

Back to subject of the thread???

.

 

[bruce t]

Which state tests for stupidity? Being stupid isn't illegal. Maybe it should be. But every day you see stupid acts in the supermarket car park. So why would anyone treat RVers any differently?

[Pappy Yokum]

On 10/10/2021 at 4:15 PM, bruce t said:

Which state tests for stupidity? Being stupid isn't illegal. Maybe it should be. But every day you see stupid acts in the supermarket car park. So why would anyone treat RVers any differently?

Same CA  DMV previously referred to.

It adjoins a *very* large retirement community  (small & large houses, condos, high rise, etc)  formerly known as "Leisure World", now "Laguna Woods Village".

A few years ago, I was walking past the cars with folks about to take a driving test.  An examiner -with clip-board in hand- was standing outside the car, giving the person behind the wheel, this admonishment:  "No....your LEFT  turn signal".

Recently a friend went to re-locate his 98 yr old (totally deaf) grandfather from Arizona to CA.  Gramps still had a valid AZ DL.

Agree that all drivers should be given a driving test when their DL is due for renewal.  Unfortunately, "logistics" = mission impossible!  

The written AND driving test (with the vehicle to be towed) for folks wishing to tow a 15,000 GVWR 5th or a 10,000 bumper pull trlr to obtain a NON-Commercial Class A  License (as in CA)  - is excellent, & should be a a national (Fed.) requirement.  If you can't pass, you don't belong on the road!  (Or the WalMart pk lot towing same).

And those Class C (standard DL) licensed drivers: 

Note:  This is not an ethnic slur, simply a fact of life.  So. CA has a city (Westminster)  reputed to have the second largest Vietnamese population (2nd only to Saigon).  Some/most/all of whom have never seen snow.  Consequently, it's a "must do"  ritual to visit the local San Bernardino Mtns (7K ft elevation - ski slopes to 8K+) during snow season.  You haven't "lived" until you're in a supermarket parking lot with a driver, eyes as big as saucers, trying to "negotiate" the parking lot at 5 mph (with chains)!  Only thing more spectacular is a major intersection.  However some "flatlanders" of any and all nationalities aren't much better - - they just use faster speeds - 'cause they know  their 4-wheel drive is good for any/all icy conditions *without* chains  LOL!

 

Why treat 'em differently?  If you're OK in the same pk lot or road with 'em, start your driving day .....with a prayer?

Dismount soap-box.

.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Pappy Yokum
minor correction/s

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, Pappy Yokum said:

Only thing more spectacular is a major intersection.  However some "flatlanders" of any and all nationalities aren't much better - - they just use faster speeds - 'cause they know  their 4-wheel drive is good for any/all icy conditions *without* chains  LOL!

So are you saying that we should be restricted to driving in climates and terrains that we are familiar with? At present, every state allows any driver who is legally licensed in his home state to drive anything he legal for at home anywhere that they wish in every state and at every season. As one who has spent a great deal of life in places with serious winter, I can appreciate your example but that same thing could be said for most drivers from the most rural parts of the country when they find themselves in one of our major cities, at rush hour and driving a very large RV.  Even if everyone was tested at every renewal, it really wouldn't change much.

[bruce t]

Outback Australia has seen many deaths because drivers don't know their limits. The USA has rental RVs in Death Valley in summer. As I said no laws against stupidity.

[Pappy Yokum]

16 hours ago, Kirk W said:

So are you saying that we should be restricted to driving in climates and terrains that we are familiar with? At present, every state allows any driver who is legally licensed in his home state to drive anything he legal for at home anywhere that they wish in every state and at every season. As one who has spent a great deal of life in places with serious winter, I can appreciate your example but that same thing could be said for most drivers from the most rural parts of the country when they find themselves in one of our major cities, at rush hour and driving a very large RV.  Even if everyone was tested at every renewal, it really wouldn't change much.

The "climate restrictions" take place at the sign, "Chains Required" !!  However, that doesn't necessarily make the drivers into...... *competent* drivers.

In most places with "normal" climate/weather you can't go from "balmy sunshine" to heavy snow conditions in an hour's drive - and vice-versa.

Ever been in an area, mostly flat terrain -  where there is *NO* snow "year round" - then to *LOTS* of snow in an hour's drive?  The NO snow areas have *millions* of local residents who *don't* want to drive 5 hours to the Sierras on xlnt four lane highway to ski or snowboard (or for snow "fun")  so 1 hour is great!  (hey it's all freeway - except for about the last 1/2 hour).

Likewise - (Ice & snow aside) are you saying states should *not* test to see if a driver  (Not employed as a commercial driver) is  competent to drive whatever/wherever he/she likes with a standard license?

I can appreciate your opinion/thoughts, however I have driven in most states in the US and encountered drivers of various RVs (in good weather) who were obviously incompetent......but most likely legally licensed.  No "restrictive" check points.

Yes - it is.....  Driver Beware!  (of the "stupids" anywhere & everywhere).

BTW - those areas in the San Bernardino mountains (CA) go from "rural" to literally  thousands of folks - from Los Angeles, Orange, and San Diego Counties - accessed via winding , often two lane roads, when snow falls - and the ski areas open.  For them it beats the 5+ hour drive on great roads to the Sierra.   One hour "up" from sun - to snow.  Several hours "down" when the (day sessions) on the lifts close - and the mtn roads are beginning to ice-up.  Non-stupids leave an hour before the lifts close.

For anyone who *is* competent driver in BB, a major "T" intersection in town provides limitless entertainment of slow speed spin-outs via the front window of a restaurant while eating breakfast . Unfortunately, serious accidents are frequent on some of the more "difficult" portions of the access roads.  Some of those are RV's (with chains).  Commercial drivers (box trucks - even semis) do well.

In my younger days I could surf In the big pond at 6AM for an hour, and still make the opening of the lifts by 9 AM in Big Bear - return by dinner time. (And ready for a desert M/C race the next day).

Still ride M/Cs and surf (Real surfers call the usual 'old guys' area, "Beer Belly Beach") .  No snow ski, snowboard, or water ski,  anymore. 

How 'bout you, Kirk?

😉