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Hydrogen Demand: And Now The Contentious Disappointments


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We keep hearing erroneous claims about "Green Hydrogen" When it is actually made from fossil fuels using even more fossil fuels to make it.

I'd laugh if Toyoda's (Toyoda is the CEO of Toyota) excuses for his failure to bring on Toyota's EV program personnally had not resulted in his vilifying electric in favor of Hydrogen - which makes no sense whatsoever. Why? Read on.

Note: The graphs are reduced to see them correctly just left click on each.

Excerpt:

"Published 2 days ago

In the first part of this series, I projected and explained the plummeting hydrogen demand from petroleum refining and fertilizer, the biggest sources of demand today, through 2100. In the second part, I explored the flat demand segments, and the single source of significant demand increase I see for hydrogen in the next 20 years. In this final assessment, I look at the great but false hopes for a hydrogen economy: transportation, long-term storage, and heat.

Hydrogen demand through 2100 by author

Hydrogen demand through 2100, by author.

Transportation — 0 rising to 1 (one) million tons H2

This is one of the great hopes of the current fossil fuel industry, and a couple of car companies which have managed to capture their governments in Korea and Japan. However, there’s no significant place for hydrogen or synthetic fuels made from it in ground transportation. Electrification is simply too easy, prevalent, cheap, and effective. Hydrogen can’t compete outside of tiny niches like vintage vehicles. For short- and medium-haul aviation, and short- and medium-haul water freight shipping, the clear path is battery electric as well.

That only leaves long-haul shipping and long-haul aviation as areas where hydrogen might have a play. Mark Z. Jacobson and I discussed this on CleanTech Talk a year and a half ago. His perspective was that in order to get to a zero-carbon world, hydrogen would have to be used for long-haul shipping and aviation.

His perspective on shipping was that we needed to eliminate black carbon, with its 100-year global warming potential of 1,055–2,240. Subsequently, I spent a couple of hours talking with Hadi Akbari, a PhD of mechanical engineering who has spent the last several years of his fascinating career spanning two continents building scrubbers for heavy marine vessels. Just as particulates are scrubbed from coal plant emissions, they can be scrubbed from marine emissions, and so biofuels with their lower black carbon emissions will be fit for purpose in my opinion. (Note: this is my opinion after talking with Hadi and researching further, not Hadi’s expressed opinion.) Biofuels use nature to do most of the heavy lifting and have advanced substantially over the past decade. There is no value in using them in ground transportation, they no longer consume food sources and there is little real concern about them competing with agriculture, although there is a lot of expressed concern nonetheless.

On aviation, Jacobson rightly points out that we have to solve emissions, but it’s a hard problem, with CO2 emissions, nitrous oxide emissions (anything burned in our atmosphere combines the nitrogen and oxygen into nitrous oxides), and the water vapor which creates contrails. In discussion with Paul Martin, it’s clear that both hydrogen storage and fuel cells would have to be in the fuselage, leaving a lot less room for passengers and luggage or making the fuselage bigger with attendant efficiency losses, and creating a heavy burden of excess heat from the fuel cells that makes them deeply unlikely. In his perspective, hydrogen would be burned directly in jet engines in this model, and that wouldn’t eliminate nitrous oxides or water vapor hence contrails.

Once again, low-carbon biofuels are likely to be the solution here. Certified versions have existed since 2011, after all, while there are exactly zero certified hydrogen drive train planes in the world. And contrails require fairly minimal operational changes, as a regular CleanTechnica reader who holds my feet the fire pointed out (and thank you for doing so, Hazel). Those operational changes still have to be mandated for the airlines, but it’s not as significant a problem as I had originally assumed.

Biofuels are enhanced with some hydrogen in some cases, and there are always going to be edge cases where hydrogen persists, but my projection for all modes of transportation including biofuel use is still only an increase from effectively 0 tons today to a million tons a year by 2100.

Long-term storage — 0 rising to 1 (one) million tons

Hydrogen is also projected as a solution for the dunkelflaute, long dreary periods when there is little wind or sunshine. However, it only makes into the also-ran categories of my projections for grid storage, not into the three major technologies.

CT-Projection-of-Grid-Storage-Capacity.p

Projection of grid storage capacity through 2060 by major categories by author

Even there, it’s not going to be a big player in the also ran category, fighting for scraps with all the other contenders a long way back in the pack. Some of the reasons are the same as always. It’s ineffective, it’s inefficient and it will be vastly more expensive. But more than that, the need just isn’t there unless you assume a whole bunch of other solutions aren’t already occurring.

High-voltage direct current (HVDC) transmission has been around since the 1950s, but in 2012 they finally solved a major technical inhibitor to its wide scale use. Despite the presence of multiple grids on continents already sharing electricity with HVDC asynchronous connections between high-voltage alternative current (HVAC) synchronized grids, despite massive HVDC construction projects under way, planned and proposed, despite electricity already being transmitted long-distances today with much more lossy HVAC, many people seem to think that electricity won’t be transmitted from renewables between opposing ends of continents and even across continents.

Electricity already flows from Africa to Europe across the Bosphorus Strait. Expanding that with big HVDC pipes from solar installations and wind farms in northern Africa is trivial, just as getting more HVDC pipes to ease the logjam from North Sea offshore wind into the population centers of Europe is straightforward and being constructed.

Renewables are cheap to build, and just as with every other form of electrical generation except nuclear, will be overbuilt and run under capacity part of the year.

 

Demand management strategies vs V2g projection

Demand management strategies vs V2g projection by author

And the emergence of massive electrification increases the ability to do demand management at much larger scales.

The assumption of the need for long-term storage assumes narrow geographical boundaries, an archaic concept of energy independence in a world of global trade, and actively hostile neighbors. Liebreich and I have started this conversation online, with his opening salvo being a question of whether Japan would ever accept the proposed HVDC links with China, to which I respond now that China is already 20% of Japan’s annual trade, so why is electricity different?

Germany will likely be the one outlier in this space. They have underground salt deposits that they can turn into caverns, they have a weird love affair with hydrogen too, and dunkelflaute being a German word isn’t a coincidence. If anybody builds significant hydrogen storage, it will probably be them.

As a result, my projection for global demand for hydrogen for electricity storage rises from effectively zero tons today to a million tons in 2100. Someone will waste the money, but very few.

Heating — 0 tons rising to … 0 (zero) tons

And finally, heating, the beloved hope of natural gas utilities globally, all of whom are lobbying hard to convince governments to let them ship hydrogen into homes and buildings to replace natural gas, and to allow them to inject tiny amounts of hydrogen into existing natural gas lines to produce close to zero emissions reductions.

There are no certified hydrogen home furnaces or stoves today. The existing natural gas distribution network would have to be completely replaced to handle hydrogen. Current challenges with leaking natural gas would be multiplied vastly by leaking hydrogen due to the tiny size of the molecule. SGN in Scotland is trying to retrofit 300 homes in Fife with hydrogen appliances for free, one of the many efforts going on around the world by utilities whose life is rapidly ending.

No, what will happen is that all of that natural gas distribution infrastructure will be shoved into electrical minimills to create steel for useful things, and the world will convert to heat pumps and induction stoves.

My projection for global demand for hydrogen for heating is effectively zero tons today, and remaining at so far under a million tons through 2100 that it rounds down to zero.


And so, that’s the projection. It’s flawed, of course, but not fatally in my opinion. It’s my first iteration of the projection, and it’s withstood me writing 4,000 words over three articles explaining it, so there’s that. But as with my projections on grid storage and vehicle-to-grid, I offer it to create a useful discussion about what the world will become, and welcome challenges to it.

Hydrogen demand today is two-thirds for petroleum refining and fertilizer manufacturing. Both of those uses are going to drop precipitously in the coming decades. The one growth area, steel, will not replace them, in my opinion. Green hydrogen only has to replace the useful two-thirds of hydrogen demand seen today, and grow to 75% of 2021 demand by 2100 to fulfill all needs.

Source:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/09/19/hydrogen-demand-and-now-the-contentious-disappointments/

 

Edited by RV_

RV/Derek
http://www.rvroadie.com Email on the bottom of my website page.
Retired AF 1971-1998


When you see a worthy man, endeavor to emulate him. When you see an unworthy man, look inside yourself. - Confucius

 

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

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Why the "Green" in "Green Hydrogen" is intentionally misleading.

 

There is a lot of talk about green hydrogen, but to be really green, the feedstock needs to be water (not so called “natural gas,” aka fossil methane) and the energy used for electrolysis needs to come from renewable energy (not coal or gas). In high school, we did an experiment where we ran a current through water and collected the hydrogen and oxygen that was produced. This is how green hydrogen is produced, but on a much more massive scale.

Based in Western Australia, Strike Energy’s hydrogen is purported to be green, but is it? Sure, the plant will be powered by geothermal and renewable energy, but the feedstock is 98% “lower carbon” gas. Only 2% will be green! It might produce low-carbon urea as a fertilizer, but its hydrogen is not green. Strike Energy is a gas company.

In every jubilant article about green hydrogen, we need to ask the question: “What is the feedstock?” It’s like the difference between an “electrified” vehicle (like Toyota produces) and an electric car (with a plug). Read carefully and see if an article mentions: water, desalination plants, and electrolysers. Calling the hydrogen green when it is produced from methane is just not cricket.

Be careful with the misleading term “renewable hydrogen” as well. This appears to refer to hydrogen produced from methane with renewable energy. Certainly that’s somewhat greener than hydrogen produced with power from coal, but is it green enough? No. That’s like a petrol/gas station being powered by renewables rather than coal. The petrol’s still petrol.

Currently, the economics of green hydrogen don’t stack up. “According to a presentation by global energy giant Iberdrola at the Ammonia Energy conference in Australia last week – the cost of wind and solar will need to fall by around 30-40 per cent, the cost of electrolyser technology (which splits water into hydrogen and oxygen) will need to fall by at least 50 per cent. The efficiency, or load factor, of electrolysers will need to lift by 10-20 per cent.” Those are major, major requirements needed to get green hydrogen competitive."

Source:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/09/19/green-hydrogen-needs-to-actually-be-green-it-aint-easy-being-green/

 

RV/Derek
http://www.rvroadie.com Email on the bottom of my website page.
Retired AF 1971-1998


When you see a worthy man, endeavor to emulate him. When you see an unworthy man, look inside yourself. - Confucius

 

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

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Wow after all the Hydrogen talk here in Tesla investment threads, I am surprised at the lack of discussin' and cussin'! 😯🙄

RV/Derek
http://www.rvroadie.com Email on the bottom of my website page.
Retired AF 1971-1998


When you see a worthy man, endeavor to emulate him. When you see an unworthy man, look inside yourself. - Confucius

 

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

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While I don't think Hydrogen will be used in cars I did see a possible use for heavy equipment. EV has to be stopped and charged and that is unacceptable in heavy equipment use. Hydrogen could be used here. 

2003 Teton Grand Freedom towed with 2006 Freightliner Century 120 across the beautiful USA welding pipe.https://photos.app.goo.gl/O32ZjgzSzgK7LAyt1

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Yes, you can use hydrogen in cars.  But it will be a fuel cell powering the car.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/5-fast-facts-about-hydrogen-and-fuel-cells

I really don't understand why fuel cells have fallen off the face of the earth.  They work and totally non-polluting.

Because of Federal tax subsidies to Industrial Wind and Solar companies, the local government owned utilities in the Pacific Northwest have to PAY the corporations to take ELECTRICITY primarily in the spring during smolt migration.

They are now exploring using the "unwanted" electricity to make hydrogen.  That is TOTALLY GREEN HYDGROGEN.

If is pans out they could start making hydrogen and stop selling electricity to western Washington and Oregon and California utilities.  

The wheel is still in spin on renewables, and where it stops nobody knows right now.  But wind, solar, and batteries could end up being yesterday's news.

 

Vladimr Steblina

Retired Forester...exploring the public lands.

usbackroads.blogspot.com

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Vladimir and Glenn - the hydrogen fueled piston engine video was a visit at JCB in England, in the u tube channel Harry’s Garage. The chairman of the board of JCB explains the advantages of pursuing piston engine tech for large mobile machines vs battery electric.

As far as hydrogen, in Canada “green” hydrogen only describes hydrogen from renewable electricity. The other hydrogen cracked from gas is “blue” or something or other.

It’s kind of like the electricity used to charge battery cars - it’s green except when it is not.

 


 

 

"Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. 

 

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There are these videos by a fella named Munro who has torn a Mach-e and a Tesla Model Y apart and has a lot to about the EV industry.  His analysis of the Hydrogen/Elecric story is that long range trucks using hydrogen canisters will the introduction of hydrogen and may the sole use.  Trucks could load a set of canisters that can be rotated out on the road giving the range between stops needed for OTR trucking. Too complicated for cars where batteries will be fine.  The trucking industry almost has an independent energy structure already.

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I was big on hydrogen 2000-2003 and there are issues with it that have nothing to do with the "Hindenburg effect" which is an illogical fear of hydrogen blowing up or causing fires. I am still pro hydrogen if it is green hydrogen but it is not as it is made from petroleum byproducts usually  methane and refining. 

I understand the oil industry supporting it but the whole maintenance issues from igniting, exploding, and exhausting hot gases, ignition and intake injection systems, timing, multiple gear transmissions. Hydrogen is still ICE and/or Hydrogen fossil fuel, with all that maintenance being the same as ICE fossil fueled cars. Air and oil filters, exhaust systems, no regenerative braking to save on brakes and brake maintenance, etc.

So I would expect dealers to want hydrogen over EVs because they make most of their money from service and maintenance.

When hydrogen was looking good at the turn of the century - long time members might remember I was trying to get information from I think it was Ballard in Canada who had a hydrogen production plant in initial R&D for private or neighborhood use the size of a 4X8 enclosed trailer that needed only water and electricity to produce hydrogen and compress it for use. They dropped it and the engineer I talked to said it was stupid to drop it as it was a doable way to clean hydrogen.

However if anyone thinks range anxiety with EVs is a deal breaker, which it is not, far from it, the amount of pressure needed onboard a vehicle using hydrogen to store it in a tank makes it have less range than EVs. If anyone has a link to some good research about range for hydrogen please post range estimates.  Assuming clean hydrogen made from desalinated seawater water and electricity, what range is possible with how little can be carried onboard a vehicle? Because I can charge anywhere and on any trip, there is no hydrogen infrastructure in place or planned. I can charge on the road at superchargers in the same time it took with a gas car or diesel truck for fill-ups and lunch.

Mike Stritzki did the Hopewell Project where he had a solar home with clean hydrogen production stored in propane type tanks to run his cars. I wanted that until I realized no hydrogen for refueling away from home. Here is that video I posted here many times. It is strange that the same people who were hydrogen naysayers back then are now big on it??

I also wanted fuel cells but the schemes to provide hydrogen from pellets to powders never got anywhere near inexpensive enough to compete with Fossil Fuels and EVs. And storage for fuel cells remains an issue far more contentious than electricity storage. I see no hydrogen fuel cell flashlights or laptops an issue.

As well the big vehicle manufacturers that are actually selling clean buses are using EV tech not hydrogen. No doubt the oil producers see the writing on the wall and are now endorsing hydrogen as well as dealers seeing their service cash cow gone. But we saw Natural gas vehicles come and pretty much go, and hydrogen attempts 20 years ago before EVs, so I don't see big vehicles.

I can definitely see hydrogen for farm vehicles if they also have an electrolysis hydrogen planet to generate, store, and have hydrogen at hand.

We are moving once more (eliminating stairs before we get to needing chairlifts in ten years) and will have our own solar and Powerwalls as well as a grid connection as needed and run our EV/s for free save tires and wipers as well as new battery packs ever ten or 15 years or so. 

The long time members will remember my hydrogen posts and magnetic refrigeration posts 2000-2010, then when Musk did Space X and joined Tesla as their major financier, share holder and CEO, I did go EV. And now they have battery recycling licked there is little to do save storage.

Whether you believe fusion will be cracked or not, suspend your disbelief for a minute and just consider if it is.  Once the plants are built that will be non polluting but without the radioactive waste of fission AFAIK. I remain to be convinced. We will see in the next couple of years. I am fine with hydrogen too, but I don't see it happening in long haul OTR trucking.

Great ideas!

Once we have EV 18 wheeler tractors I think we will see RVEVs and charging in campgrounds won't be an issue.

We are in the infancy of deleting fossil fuels like we did wood, steam, when fossil fuels became our choice for cars and trucks. We will see big changes in the next few years, in whatever technology. I hope to see big changes.

We may get help on that technology from sources already demonstrating interstellar or dimensional technologies we are frantically trying to reverse engineer from downed spacecraft and bodies that I now see have happened in most places of Earth.

All bets may be off.

 

 

 

Edited by RV_

RV/Derek
http://www.rvroadie.com Email on the bottom of my website page.
Retired AF 1971-1998


When you see a worthy man, endeavor to emulate him. When you see an unworthy man, look inside yourself. - Confucius

 

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

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When I bought my off-grid house 25 years ago I paid close attention to solar, hydrogen, fuel cells, gas turbines, batteries, etc. etc.

Barron's had a great article in 1997, how within a couple of years I would have a gas turbine providing electricity to my off-grid house and than five years after that a fuel cell.

Well, twenty-five years later, it is still solar panels with lead batteries!!!  

I am NOW pretty confident that when I die, there will be solar panels with lead batteries at my off-grid house!!!

Even Lithium batteries need to be heated to be charged at less than 32 degrees. 

Oh wait, just read an article in the WSJ that new batteries running on sodium will be available next year and they are NOT cold sensitive.  Any bets that it will happen??

Vladimr Steblina

Retired Forester...exploring the public lands.

usbackroads.blogspot.com

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Vlad,

re: needing to heat battery packs in cold weather:

The nice thing about Tesla Powerwalls, or similar, which are Li-Ion battery packs, is that they, unlike lead acid batteries, do not produce toxic gases when used. So heating is not an issue as many folks put them inside the garage or the basement or even a closet.

 

If you prefer hydrogen fuel cell vehicle/s, you could do like Mike Stritzki did in the video and build your own clean hydrogen electrolysis and storage. At that time there were no Powerwalls yet.

The problem is unlike EVs there is no hydrogen refueling infrastructure for trips.

We are moving to a Ranch style house if we can find one with a walkout full basement and a view like we have now. We could skip the view as long as we are in the area. Then we hope to do solar and Powerwalls.

You are way ahead of us as you already have the solar array.

Edited by RV_

RV/Derek
http://www.rvroadie.com Email on the bottom of my website page.
Retired AF 1971-1998


When you see a worthy man, endeavor to emulate him. When you see an unworthy man, look inside yourself. - Confucius

 

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

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See link on cold temperatures and Tesla Powerwall.

https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/91781/powerwall-2-does-not-like-cold-temperatures?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=pmd_Pz5JMHjGs2gbNUMAuICyW5L.8SEom.KJ3IXLQIku8Dk-1632957728-0-gqNtZGzNAmWjcnBszQal

It is a serious issue with lithium. 

I just bought one of these:  https://www.amazon.com/Jackery-Portable-Explorer-Generator-Optional/dp/B082TMBYR6

Nice unit....doesn't CHARGE below 32 F.

It is common to lithium batteries. 

Vladimr Steblina

Retired Forester...exploring the public lands.

usbackroads.blogspot.com

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Vladimir - SiO2 aka "lead crystal" battery chemistry is very cold tolerant. 

Self heating LiFeO4 "lithium" batteries are becoming more available in the small/portable "RV" type use world.  The battery contains a heater which the BMS turns on to warm the cells to a safe charging temp when it detects charging current coming in and low cell temp at the same time. 

So the system uses the charging current to pre heat the cells.

Probably how "lithium" cells in a battery vehicle are protected as well I would guess. 

Of course the internet has wigged out about "how much of my battery power the heating uses..." 

The battery does not sit there using it's own stored energy to heat itself when not charging because "lithium" batteries do not need to be warm to supply current - to a certain point. 

SiO2 batteries are worth a look if you are after batteries that don't need to be "managed" or worried about. 

They are pretty dummy proof which is why they appeal to yours truly 🙂

"Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. 

 

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On 9/30/2021 at 5:14 AM, noteven said:

 

They are pretty dummy proof which is why they appeal to yours truly 🙂

 

RV thanks for the info.  I did follow up with a Canadian source in Kelowna.

The following is their care and feeding instructions for the batteries.  They do mention that the "two-year warranty" requires full documentation records of their charging and discharging.  That sounds a bit concerning about the warranty as well as the care and feeding.  They are priced about the same as lithium.

This is the link to the company:  http://azimuthsolarproducts.com/

Getting the Most Out of Your Silicon Dioxide Batteries/Optimizing Your Silicon
Dioxide Batteries:
Silicon dioxide batteries, AKA Lead Crystal or SiO2 batteries are designed to provide dependable power
in conditions that would ruin most other battery types. They can outperform lead-acid and lithium
batteries at high and low temperature extremes, charge faster than lead-acid, and don’t off-gas, or
require maintenance. All that said, they still perform their best under certain conditions...
“Bulk” or “Absorption” Charging: These charge at the higher range of charging voltages for typical lead-
acid batteries 14.4V – 14.7V, with 14.6V being the optimal voltage suggested by the manufacturer.
Most charge controllers and vehicle alternators reach 14.4V, or just above. Some battery settings on
charge controllers, such as “Flooded” or “Gel” may not reach that high, so charging could be slower and
inefficient. “Sealed” “Lithium” and “Custom/User Defined” settings usually have higher available
voltages and can allow for user adjustment.

Maximum/Optimal Charging Current is 25% of Ah capacity. This is usually expressed as a 0.25C, C/4, or a
4-hour Charge Rate from 100% discharge.
Charging at lower current is fine, but these batteries actually charge more efficiently at the maximum
rate, as the higher current helps lower charging resistance of the electrolyte. This also minimizes run
time for generators, and reduces fuel use, and also reduces RV and boat docking time for grid power AC
charging, so you can cut your waiting time by almost half.

“Float” Charging voltage range is 13.5V - 13.8V. When fully charged, these batteries have a shelf-life of
up to 2 years, so float charging may not be necessary in circumstances where fuel conservation and
charging from a generator is limited. Regular lead acid, lithium, and especially nickel-iron batteries
require much more frequent float charge “top-ups”.
“Equalization or De-sulphation” charge settings are not necessary for these batteries. This function on
multi-stage chargers should be turned off, or if it is 14.7V or less, it can be left as another Bulk charging
cycle for the batteries.

When the battery is fully charged, there is often an initial "surface charge" voltage generally starting at
around 13.5V with no load, and will stabilize at around 13.05V after 4-6hrs. Or you can run a small load
on the battery for a brief period to dissipate the surface charge for a more accurate voltmeter reading.
This is common behavior with most lead-acid batteries as well.

The State of Charge vs Voltage chart (attached) is for zero to minimal load on the batteries, if there is a
load on the batteries, then the voltage readings will be lower.

This should help you fine-tune your charging and monitoring systems to optimize the performance of
your battery.

Vladimr Steblina

Retired Forester...exploring the public lands.

usbackroads.blogspot.com

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2 hours ago, Vladimir said:

RV thanks for the info.  I did follow up with a Canadian source in Kelowna.

The following is their care and feeding instructions for the batteries.  They do mention that the "two-year warranty" requires full documentation records of their charging and discharging.  That sounds a bit concerning about the warranty as well as the care and feeding.  They are priced about the same as lithium.

This is the link to the company:  http://azimuthsolarproducts.com/

 

Vlad that was noteven in Canada not me.

RV/Derek
http://www.rvroadie.com Email on the bottom of my website page.
Retired AF 1971-1998


When you see a worthy man, endeavor to emulate him. When you see an unworthy man, look inside yourself. - Confucius

 

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

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On 9/29/2021 at 5:28 PM, Vladimir said:

See link on cold temperatures and Tesla Powerwall.

https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/91781/powerwall-2-does-not-like-cold-temperatures?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=pmd_Pz5JMHjGs2gbNUMAuICyW5L.8SEom.KJ3IXLQIku8Dk-1632957728-0-gqNtZGzNAmWjcnBszQal

It is a serious issue with lithium. 

I just bought one of these:  https://www.amazon.com/Jackery-Portable-Explorer-Generator-Optional/dp/B082TMBYR6

Nice unit....doesn't CHARGE below 32 F.

It is common to lithium batteries. 

Vlad did you bother to read your own link from the Tesla forums you quoted?? I just got through explaining before that to you that the Powerwalls do not off gas explosive/corrosive/toxic gas so do not need to be ventilated like wet cell batteries like you have. So most of us place them inside a garage or whatever.

Then you answered that they do poorly in cold and provided the link. We will put ours inside which is what most folks in cold climates do. When we get our new ranch house we'll decide whether we put them in the garage or the basement.

From your link:

"deweyvt03_98071545 Posted January 2018

That must be why my engineer placed the powerwall in the garage for my plans, even though it is the opposite side of the house than the meter. It is rated for outdoor, but they said it would be better to be protected anyway.

 

@jamesellman what you are reporting is demonstratively not my experience with our 2 powerwall in Edmonds,Washington. Our batteries work as advertised and we have had temps down to 16 degrees with no apparent problems with charging or discharging with solar. The PW2’s are an incredible product and I have been delighted with ours.
 
@deweyvt103 Tesla-Energy told me that protecting the PW2 batteries by installing inside our garage would probably extend the usable life of battery. I am happy I chose that installment option. Other than problems with snow covered panels, our PW2 batteries have worked extremely well since installing on 6/22/18.
 
 
that's why i insisted they install my powerwalls in my basement where it's always 60 degrees year round.
 
Source: Your link.
Excerpt:
"The Tesla Powerwall 2 Can Charge At Below-Freezing Temperatures

Whereas other lithium batteries experience lower charge rates at below-freezing temperatures, the Tesla Powerwall 2 has a thermal management system that allows it to increase charge performance by preheating the battery cells through a process Tesla calls preconditioning.

Preconditioning automatically turns on when temperatures are below freezing. The Powerwall will either use power from the grid to preheat the cells or use stored energy when there’s a blackout.

Ten Year Warranty

The Powerwall 2 comes with a 10-year warranty that guarantees the battery will retain 80% of the original energy capacity during that period.

If it happens to fall under 80% of the original energy capacity within a decade, you’re eligible to get a replacement.

Although energy capacity reduces over time in batteries, the Tesla Powerwall 2 has a high chance of functioning in a good manner beyond its 10-year warranty.

The Tesla Powerwall 2 Has An AC Battery With An Inbuilt Inverter

Unlike the first Powerwall, which had a DC-coupled battery, the second edition has an AC-coupled battery with an inbuilt inverter.

It’s advantageous as it can be used as a stand-alone backup power source without solar power.

Additionally, the Tesla Powerwall 2 has a capacity of 13.5 kWh, which is sufficient to power the average home for 24 houts with an output of 5 kW and 7kW at peak times.

 

The Tesla Powerwall 2 Has A Liquid Cooling System

By incorporating a liquid thermal management system, the Tesla Powerwall 2 is able to turn out more heat during high loads and rapid charging, giving it a longer lifespan and better performance at high temperatures.

 

It’s able to able to perform well from temperatures of -4 to upwards of +120°F, although it can still experience power reductions at temperatures above 100°F."

Source:

https://www.hotcars.com/tesla-powerwall-2-pros-and-cons/

 

Now I am not trying to convince anyone to buy a Tesla anything. I am highly interested since 2003 and own the car and it is surprising how many people tell me what they can and can't do who do not own one. Powerwalls are not cheap and just because someone cannot afford one does not make them bad, those kinds of naysayers are just sour grapes.

Everything has their pros and cons.

Now they have a PowerWall plus as well as the Powerwall 2, and like my car improve them with over the air updates. So here are the specs for them and the batteries they use. And included is a 2021 comparison chart with other brands of battery storage.:

"Powerwall 2 main features and specifications

Tesla Powerwall 2

Tesla Powerwall 2

13.5kWh usable capacity and 100% depth of discharge

AC coupled battery with integrated inverter/charger

Power rating = 5kW continuous, 7kW peak output rating #

Advanced liquid cooling system

10-year warranty to 70% retained capacity*

Price: US$7400, AU$11,000 plus $1800 for the backup gateway 2 **

* Based on information available at time of writing. **subject to change. Does not include installation labour, solar inverter, panels or additional components.

# Peak output rating may be increased via software update - further details below

 

Powerwall+ main features and specificationsTesla Powerwall+ (Plus)

 
  • 13.5kWh usable capacity and 100% depth of discharge

  • AC coupled cattery with integrated inverter/charger and Solar Inverter

  • 7.6kW Solar Inverter with 4 MPPTs = Max solar capacity 12.9kW

  • On-grid power rating = 5.8kW continuous, 7.6kW peak output rating

  • Off-grid power rating = 7kW continuous, 10kW peak output rating

  • Advanced liquid cooling system

  • 10-year warranty to 70% retained capacity*

  • Price: US$11,000 - TBA - Backup gateway may be required**

  • Available in the US only, not available in Australia

* Based on information available at time of writing. ** Subject to change. Does not include solar panels or installation.

See the full Tesla Powerwall+ specification datasheet


Battery cost comparison

See the detailed lithium battery storage cost guide - The Tesla Powerwall 2 compared to leading lithium-based batteries including BYD, LG RESU, Powerplus Energy and SimpliPhi, plus high cycle life lithium titanate battery systems from Zenaji and Kilowatt labs.

Click to see the full battery comparison article including efficiency and rate of capacity loss over time.

Click to see the full battery comparison article including efficiency and rate of capacity loss over time.


Tesla Lithium NMC battery cells

Tesla_battery_cells_2170.png

The lithium cells used in the Powerwall are produced in the enormous Tesla manufacturing facility known as the Gigafactory in Nevada. The Powerwall uses lithium NMC (Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt) battery cells developed in collaboration with Panasonic which are similar to the Lithium NCA cells used in the Tesla electric vehicles. The original Powerwall 1 used the smaller, more common 18650 size cells while the Powerwall 2, reviewed here, uses the larger 21-70 cells which have a 21mm diameter and are 70mm long. The larger cells have several advantages including a greater energy density and a longer runtime.

Compared to the first Powerwall, the Powerwall 2 was designed to be more compact, easier to handle and simpler to install. Gone are the sleek curves of the first Powerwall, giving way to a more practical rectangular shape with venting either side for cooling and a bright green LED strip. Interestingly it also has a simple on/off switch on one side. Still weighing in at 120kg it is definitely not light, although thankfully it can now be ground-mounted as well as wall-mounted. The IP rating (weather rating) remains high at IP56, although it still should be installed in a sheltered location, such as a carport or garage, and out of direct sunlight if possible. Heat and batteries just don't go well together."

Source:

https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/tesla-powerwall-2-solar-battery-review

Tesla cars and energy products are not for everyone. Just like I won't buy a Rolex because today my $99.00 Casio and Armitron electronic watches keeps time pretty much as well. I don't buy a Lamborghini because I prefer my $50k Tesla Y. The Tesla stock I bought post split last year has more than doubled and is now past one year and I can take long term capital gain tax which is cheaper than short term taxes.

If anyone has issues with that read my tagline.

 

Edited by RV_

RV/Derek
http://www.rvroadie.com Email on the bottom of my website page.
Retired AF 1971-1998


When you see a worthy man, endeavor to emulate him. When you see an unworthy man, look inside yourself. - Confucius

 

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

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