States that have lifted virus restrictions

[bigjim]

It appears nothing.

[agesilaus]

First I have seen no proof that there is such a thing as a 'super spreader', show me that first.

[Barbaraok]

3 hours ago, agesilaus said:

More totally unproven progressive myths. Zero proof, just wild supposition made up to make them feel superior

Wedding in Maine

Washington State Wedding

Sturgis

Mount Vernon, WA Church Choir Practice

Texas Funeral

White House Rose Garden Super Spreader Event

Just a very few super spreader events.   

[agesilaus]

No proof there, newspaper stories do not constitute anything but rumor.

[Barbaraok]

3 hours ago, agesilaus said:

 

And I'm still waiting for one of you to explain why, when you are protecting yourself with a mask, do I have to wear a mask. You think that mask protects you already. In truth thinking you are stopping a virus with a cloth mask is like expecting a volleyball net to stop a speck of dust.

And if the mask was effective it would have to me fitted to your face and discarded after use. No reusing contaminated PPE.

I am protecting others and they are protecting me.   Don't tell us after a year that simple fact hasn't been realized yet?    Rather, you are being disengenous and everyone can see that.     

[agesilaus]

Nope still waiting, that's not even a try at an explanation

[kurtsara]

20 hours ago, sandsys said:

Minnesota has only reduced some restrictions. We are still required to wear masks and do social distancing but some places have been allowed to reopen with decreased capacity. We could actually go out to eat if we wore our masks to and from a restaurant and inside until the food comes. That is what they are doing in our in-house restaurant but I did not know other places were allowed to do so also. I probably should have realized that the facilities reopening here would mean that statewide mandates had changed.

Dave is watching infection trends here to help him decide whether to resume social activities in March. It's been a whole year now and he has really missed his group of friends. I hope he gets to go even though that means me figuring out what to do all evening without him; I can't remember what that was like a year ago.

Linda

We don't have to wear a mask to and from a restaurant, only walking through there door to your table, you can take it off and keep it off at the table, you don't have to put it on until your food comes. 

46 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

I am protecting others and they are protecting me.   Don't tell us after a year that simple fact hasn't been realized yet?    Rather, you are being disengenous and everyone can see that.     

I think masks are doing nothing also, I wear one in a business that requires one but don't want to. Three of our neighbors have had covid and we hang around the firepit all the time with them and the other neighbors and only those three have had covid, and they had it four months ago. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by kurtsara

[Barbaraok]

And your neighbors just magically got it from where?   It is transmitted from person to person.   When outdoors, it is diluted and you may not get any viral particles or may get a few, but not enough to overwhelm immune system and become ill.  The more viral particles you have, the greater the chance of getting very, very ill.  That's why so many medical personnel died at the beginning of the outbreak because we didn't understand about viral loads.    So outside, air currents dilute any particles coming from them and depending upon where one is sitting, chance of getting sick go way down.    Inside, sitting closer, poor ventilation with little dilution, chance of getting enough particles goes up.   That's where masks come in.   If you have the virus, your wearing a mask means 60-70% of all moisture laden particles are trapped inside the mask if cloth, and higher level trapped by N95 masks.    If you do not have the virus, they 60-70% have been stopped from leaving the mask and the rest are projected upwards or towards the side.  Thus other people will only receive 10-20% at most, then their masks will trap 60-70% of that 20%, so very small amount gets to you.   Maintain a minimum 6' from others (9' is better), and most of the particles will hit the floor because they lose most of their forward projection coming through the mask.   

Any of the super spreader events is evidence of what happens when people are close together and not wearing masks.  That anyone could view those as anything but transmission events is like believing that immaculate conceptions happen to everyone who suddenly realizes they are pregnant.  

[agesilaus]

Quote

Any of the super spreader events is evidence of what happens when people are close together and not wearing masks.

That is not evidence of any such thing. At best it is a hypothesis that needs to be tested by a controlled experiment. And it seems in this case the experiment could be easily conducted, slap masks on infected volunteers have them cough and sneeze if possible and measure viral particles at at several distances 1 , 2 and 3 meters for example. Why hasn't this been done. My unproved supposition is that either it has been with the results suppressed, or the experiment itself has been suppressed since it will disprove the public mask claims.

Edited March 1, 2021 by agesilaus

[Zulu]

3 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

If you have the virus, your wearing a mask means 60-70% of all moisture laden particles are trapped inside the mask if cloth, and higher level trapped by N95 masks.  

Yikes! Where are you getting these numbers from, Barb?

This mask debate has gone on for far too long. Part of the debate is political, part is science, and part is bad science.

A brief look at scientific research (not newspaper articles, TV, radio, blogs, etc) shows a non-so-clear picture. For example, Nature (10/6/20) gives a good summary of the evidence and lack thereof on mask wearing. However, while there is actual research (Journal of General Internal Medicine (7/31/20) ) that indicates mask wearing actually works. On the other hand, there has also been discredited research (see letter to National Academy of Sciences).

Regardless, I'm wearing a mask.

 

[2gypsies]

AGESILAUS:  Here's a good article to put you to sleep.  When you finish there are more recommendations of articles at the very end of this first article:

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

... and more  https://trinity.duke.edu/research-offers-visible-proof-masks-work

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/clear-your-patients-confusion-about-which-masks-work-best

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/stanford-scientists-contribute-to-who-mask-guidelines.html

AGESILAUS:  Why are you digging your heels into this?  There are many, many experts in this field of study and you're not one of them.  If everyone believed like you we'd never get back to normal.

[agesilaus]

From the Nature article

Quote

which would suggest that viruses aren’t typically riding out on coughs or sneezes. By this reasoning, aerosols could prove to be the most important transmission vehicle. So, it is worth looking at which masks can stop aerosols.

 

 

Quote

Benn worked with Danish engineers at her university to test their two-layered cloth mask design using the same criteria as for medical-grade ventilators. They found that their mask blocked only 11–19% of aerosols down to the 0.3 µm mark, according to Benn.

 

There just does not appear to be any well controlled tests period. What they have is based mainly on N95 masks which are unavailable. The common cloth masks, even if they work better than 11%, are very poorly fitted. An effective mask needs to fit so that it is in firm contact with skon all around their perimeter.

I have been looking at the way people wear these things and they are in most cases anything but close fitting. Try it yourself, next week look closely at the way people are wearing these things. My observations are that there is a gap where the cloth does not contact the cheek. In at least half you could stick a finger in that gap. Do you expect those to stop transmission?

[sandsys]

2 minutes ago, agesilaus said:

I have been looking at the way people wear these things and they are in most cases anything but close fitting. Try it yourself, next week look closely at the way people are wearing these things. My observations are that there is a gap where the cloth does not contact the cheek. In at least half you could stick a finger in that gap. Do you expect those to stop transmission?

Nope. Just reduce transmissions to a more tolerable level. Better than not wearing a mask at all. Just like sneezing into your sleeve is better than sneezing into the air in front of you. Dave and I sneeze into the air at home since we figure we are totally exposed to one another's germs anyway but we don't do that in public. We don't wear masks at home, either, but do when we go out in public or if a service person comes to our door.

Linda

[agesilaus]

Experts eh? I did take a college Logic class long ago and one of the logical fallacies is 'appeal to authority'

Quote

An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam, is a form of argument in which the opinion of an authority on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument.^[1] Some consider that it is used in a cogent form if all sides of a discussion agree on the reliability of the authority in the given context,^[2][3] and others consider it to always be a fallacy to cite an authority on the discussed topic as the primary means of supporting an argument.

 

Science rejects appeals to expert opinion. Experts insisted that the vitalism theory was correct despeite Pastuer's experimental proof otherwise. I could list many expert opinions that were hogwash even tho most other experts accepted them. Show experimental proof not expert opinions.

 

Quote

No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.  Einstein

 

[Zulu]

1 hour ago, agesilaus said:

Experts eh?

Gotta ask. If absolutely no one had worn masks, do you think there would have been any difference?

[jcussen]

Just to muddy the waters. 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/nyt-study-finds-that-masks-do-not-protect-wearers

[Ropeshaft]

6 hours ago, agesilaus said:

From the Nature article

 

 

There just does not appear to be any well controlled tests period. What they have is based mainly on N95 masks which are unavailable. The common cloth masks, even if they work better than 11%, are very poorly fitted. An effective mask needs to fit so that it is in firm contact with skon all around their perimeter.

I have been looking at the way people wear these things and they are in most cases anything but close fitting. Try it yourself, next week look closely at the way people are wearing these things. My observations are that there is a gap where the cloth does not contact the cheek. In at least half you could stick a finger in that gap. Do you expect those to stop transmission?

I have to agree with you on the way some people wear masks.  I do have a supply of N95 masks.  They are available but also expensive.  Currently costing $4 or $5 each where at one time they were 3 for $1.  However, they do fit tightly with little to no gap anywhere on my face.  Some call them uncomfortable but you do get used to the tight fit.  It always bugs me when I see people wearing masks with their nose hanging out and some who look like their mask is only a chin strap.

[Danandfreda]

We have been in our rv since this whole thing started. We were in a state park in March in Illinois with 2 hosts. The “great” ruler in Illinois shut all the state parks, hiking trails, lakes for fishing. We had to leave and find a private park where we were crammed in on top of each other. We did the mask and stay away from people thing like “they” said. We left Illinois and went to Kansas in June and it was a different world there no masks and everything was open and not near the infection rate as Illinois. Then the mask signs started showing up in July we did wear them in stores but not in campgrounds or outside. We spent 5 1/2 months in Kansas not in the big cities but around people stores open restaurants open. We went to a Texas Roadhouse for the first time ever. Had to make a reservation, wait in the car until they called you, wear mask to the table then take it off. The place was packed no blocked off seating and over a hundred people in there with no masks all eating and taking and never heard about a big outbreak in the area( and I’m sure they did this every night). Didn’t have the food shortage anywhere like Illinois had. Been to Mississippi, Alabama and now Florida. People outside everywhere campgrounds full. Closing everything down last year and telling everybody to stay inside seems like the worst thing that was done. Fresh air does not seem to be a big spreader here. The covid slowed us down a little at first but after sorting out the news and the numbers that our state was giving out that didn’t add up and seeing where the problem city was we continued on with our plan for the year. And no longer call that state home. 

[Kirk W]

Why bother trying to convince the anti-mask people that masks work? They have chosen not to believe and no amount evidence will ever change that.

[Jinx & Wayne]

13 hours ago, agesilaus said:

First I have seen no proof that there is such a thing as a 'super spreader', show me that first.

So if you are wrong are the deaths resulting from that error just an "oops?"

Wayne & Jinx
2017 F-350 diesel, dually
2006 Carriage Carri-Lite 36KSQ

[agesilaus]

Just look at the states with no mask mandate to see what would have happened. But Kirk is right, the logical thinkers and the emotional thinkers will never agree. I posted this list just to inform folks of what to expect while traveling and should not allowed myself to be drawn into another long and fruitless thread.

[kurtsara]

1 hour ago, Danandfreda said:

The covid slowed us down a little at first but after sorting out the news and the numbers that our state was giving out that didn’t add up

We don't watch the news so we were never brain washed. 

 

I see people alone in a car with a mask on. 

 

I see people riding bike alone with a mask on. 

 

I see husbands and wives together with masks on, nobody else with them. 

 

I see people jogging alone with a mask on. 

 

 

[hemsteadc]

47 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

Why bother trying to convince the anti-mask people that masks work? They have chosen not to believe and no amount evidence will ever change that.

Masks were never promoted as protecting you, they were promoted to protect others *from* you. 

[Barbaraok]

500,000 people have died.  500,000 people have died.  

The callousness of people is astounding.  If there had been no mask requirements, no social distancing, no shutting down of bars, etc., the number would be into the MILLIONS - is that what people want?   MORE to die.  All from something that could have been minimized to begin with just a little bit of modification.   

ALL communicable disease pass by being transmitted from one person to another.   There is no way to get COVID-19 except by being near someone who is exhaling particles, or coming into contact with a surface upon which their exhaled particles have landed while the RNA is still intact.    If you interrupt that transmission by not being in close proximity to the infected individual or the individuals exhalations are absorbed into material and deflected towards the side and up ways from their face, they you do not get infected.   

How miserable a person's life must be to not care that others are dying, to be openly hostile to efforts to keep people from dying, and feel no remorse for actively working against keeping others safe.   

 

[hemsteadc]

8 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

How miserable a person's life must be to not care that others are dying, to be openly hostile to efforts to keep people from dying, and feel no remorse for actively working against keeping others safe.   

Hostility has pretty much been the last 4 years.

Edited March 1, 2021 by hemsteadc