Texas power situation

[mptjelgin]

I've been a bridge design engineer for 40 years, and agree completely with Dutch. 

It is so easy (and typical) to second guess decisions after the fact, but design engineering is all about balancing probabilities with cost and coming up with the most workable solution for the owner.  

News flash: We don't design bridges for the heaviest possible truck, the highest possible wind, nor the thickest possible coating of ice. And neither does any other state in the country or any other country in the world...

[GlennWest]

To fix all this would be very costly. We will likely never see again in our or our children's lifetime. It will all be forgotten before then.

[Kirk W]

Quote

To fix all this would be very costly. We will likely never see again in our or our children's lifetime.

This is what we like to call, a Texas attitude and it should explain the root of the problem. Except that this could have come from the folks who manage the electric supply.

[Barbaraok]

Clearly 100 yr events are happening more often.  BUT, if part of the national grid system power would have been routed to help Texas!

and they as much as you all seem to want, change is coming.  You can stick your head in the sand, or realize that your kids and grandkids will decide, not you.

Kirk, I have always noticed a glow around you. 😎

[Jinx & Wayne]

8 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

And that is how likely to happen?   We no longer have a viable site for nuclear fuel rod storage, and nothing has come on line since 3 Mile Island incident.  

I'm pretty sure that is one we will have to figure out.  Wind and solar and electric cars aren't going to do it.  it's a hard choice.  It isn't popular.  It is necessary.  Take a look at the argument for it set forth by the Yale School for the Environment.

Wayne & Jinx
2017 F-350 diesel, dually
2006 Carriage Carri-Lite 36KSQ

[noteven]

The BBC program More or Less which examines statistics and statements made in the public domain looked at the relative safety to human health of various forms of electricity generation:

Is nuclear energy safe?

[D&J]

25 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

Clearly 100 yr events are happening more often.  BUT, if part of the national grid system power would have been routed to help Texas!

and they as much as you all seem to want, change is coming.  You can stick your head in the sand, or realize that your kids and grandkids will decide, not you.

Kirk, I have always noticed a glow around you. 😎

They are getting power from the national grid, Nebraska is going full bore generating power and selling it to our southern neighbors. 

Denny

[GlennWest]

46 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

This is what we like to call, a Texas attitude and it should explain the root of the problem. Except that this could have come from the folks who manage the electric supply.

And the fix is more fozil fuel plants. They don't depend on sun or wind. They don't ice over or freeze. But all the green folks won't let it happen. And we will forget about it and be in worse shape next time. 

[agesilaus]

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

So what was your position? And when were you there?

EDIT: I just noticed your comment/question above. I attended nuke school in Mare Island June through Dec. of 1962 and prototype training in Idaho from Jan. through July of 1963. Made 9 missile patrols as an EO.

The class number tells you, 1973. I went to Mare Island and SL1 in Idaho. BTW did you know they closed that base. I was a MO, graduated first in the class and went to Engineering Lab Tech ELT class. I served on Fast Attacks in the Pacific. ELTs were of course the first in the reactor compartment to do the rad survey. I got a medical discharge for hearing loss and went to engineering school.

[agesilaus]

12 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

And the fix is more fozil fuel plants. They don't depend on sun or wind. They don't ice over or freeze. But all the green folks won't let it happen. And we will forget about it and be in worse shape next time. 

No as we have been talking about the fix is new generation nuke plants and to stop shutting down reliable fossil plants for unreliable solar/wind plants. There is no doubt that ERCOT bungled this but that is to be expected out of any government agency.

It isn't just this country, Germany shut down their nuke plants and had to burn more really dirty soft coal, bituminous coal,  to make up the power deficit. Or buy power from the French who sensibly went to mostly nuke plants years ago.

[GlennWest]

I have built and repaired nukes. I see no way to overcome the waste. Now I'm sure we can use nuke waste to power a car or a lot of equipment. But making it that advailable to general public could be disastrous. Necular bombs. But at my age debating this is just us daydreaming. We will not see it 

[bruce t]

agesilaus if you look at a map of Europe you will notice many of the French nuclear plants are on or near the German border. Coincidence? Germany tries to hold itself up as a new age green state, yet they rely on French nuclear and Polish coal power and Russian gas. We have one state here in Australia that holds itself up as a green state. South Australia. Wind, solar and a Teslar battery. They brag about their low emissions. What they don't talk about are the interstate inter connectors that are holding up their green credentials. Or the diesel back up generators.

 

[Ray,IN]

3 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Clearly 100 yr events are happening more often.  BUT, if part of the national grid system power would have been routed to help Texas!

and they as much as you all seem to want, change is coming.  You can stick your head in the sand, or realize that your kids and grandkids will decide, not you.

Kirk, I have always noticed a glow around you. 😎

This is copied N pasted from the BBC new app:

"Could Texas source energy from elsewhere?

Texas is the only state in the US with an independent power grid, meaning it is largely dependent on its own resources.

In normal times, this works fine because Texas is a large producer of energy, both fossil and renewable, and can provide enough for its population and export to other states.

But when its infrastructure is under strain, for example during a cold-weather event, most of the state cannot link up with other grids around the US to make up the shortfall.

Texas officials have now called for a hearing into the state's grid's ability to cope with extreme weather events."

Edited February 19, 2021 by Ray,IN

[Pappy Yokum]

2 hours ago, agesilaus said:

The class number tells you, 1973. I went to Mare Island and SL1 in Idaho. BTW did you know they closed that base. I was a MO, graduated first in the class and went to Engineering Lab Tech ELT class. I served on Fast Attacks in the Pacific. ELTs were of course the first in the reactor compartment to do the rad survey. I got a medical discharge for hearing loss and went to engineering school.

 

You missed your calling!  The Russians (Chernobyl) and the Japanese (Fukushima) could have benefited from your extensive knowledge, background and expertise as a consultant! They would certainly still be producing energy!

.

 

[NamMedevac 70]

What happens during prolonged periods of no wind and no sun that occurs quiet often in USA.   How do you store wind power???  and if snow and ice covers the solar panels for a long time???  Just curious.

The California Grid suffers frequent rolling blackouts and brownouts.  Are they stand alone grid like Texas or are they connected to a regional multi state grid???  Just curious. 

I skip over comments and replies of certain forum members and you know who you are.  Friendly regards.  

Edited February 19, 2021 by NamMedevac 70

[Dutch_12078]

1 hour ago, NamMedevac 70 said:

What happens during prolonged periods of no wind and no sun that occurs quiet often in USA.   How do you store wind power???    Just curious.

In areas where it's practical due to the local geography, pumped storage hydro facilities work well for "smoothing" the variable electric supplies versus the variable demand. This energy storage technology has been in use since long before wind and solar power became wide spread.

[Kirk W]

12 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Kirk, I have always noticed a glow around you.

And you believed it to be from my sparkling personality!

[Kirk W]

11 hours ago, GlennWest said:

And the fix is more fozil fuel plants. They don't depend on sun or wind. They don't ice over or freeze.

You need to check that out as they did freeze up in this storm. Are you not listening to the local news? 

[agesilaus]

8 hours ago, Pappy Yokum said:

 

You missed your calling!  The Russians (Chernobyl) and the Japanese (Fukushima) could have benefited from your extensive knowledge, background and expertise as a consultant! They would certainly still be producing energy!

.

 

The Russians copied the Hanford WWII nuclear plants which were built with carbon blocks and they kept on building them thru Chernobyl, including their export plants. Those units lacked inherent safety features found in US plants since we did not keep building Hanford plants. US plants are built with inherent safety, lose power and the plant automatically SCRAMs--shuts down for example and that is powered by gravity.

The Japanese were just plain stupid with their plant design especially with the location of the backup diesel generators and the plant siting on a shore known to get tsunamis.

Now I make no claim to being a nuclear design engineer. I spent the rest of my post Navy career in a fossil fuel system in the laboratory not in the control room. But you won't find any US nuke plant disasters that come close to the foreign ones. Three mile Island caused no injuries and did no damage other than to the plant. And it was caused by operators ignoring standard procedures.

Newer designs will be even safer

[agesilaus]

1 hour ago, Dutch_12078 said:

In areas where it's practical due to the local geography, pumped storage hydro facilities work well for "smoothing" the variable electric supplies versus the variable demand. This energy storage technology has been in use since long before wind and solar power became wide spread.

There have been no pumped hydro storage facilities built in the US for decades. There are very few suitable locations and environmentalist fight them in the courts. Using their standard demand something while fighting against what they demand.

Also those storage units are highly inefficient, it takes a lot of energy to pump that water up a mountain and you get more losses when you convert that height into electric power. You spend 100 MW to get back 50 MW (just an estimate)

Edited February 19, 2021 by agesilaus

[hemsteadc]

55 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

You need to check that out as they did freeze up in this storm. Are you not listening to the local news? 

No he's not.

[GlennWest]

10 minutes ago, hemsteadc said:

No he's not.

In all honestly I never watch local news. No longer even use the antenna. And I had to do some research this morning. 
At the pumps where they separate the liquid from the gas froze. And I know there is no steam to them to heat them up. Built those stations. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by GlennWest

[TXiceman]

When you let high pressure liquified natural gas down to a vapor state, the temperature is extremely LOW.  This is how air conditioning works at warmer temperatures.  The condensed liquid refrigerant is reduced in pressure and you get a refrigerating effect.  There can be some water vapor in the gas and this can freeze in the control valves.  Also, if the control valves are not properly insulated, the water vapor in the atmosphere can freeze on the cold valves and prevent them from working properly.

Ken

[bigjim]

14 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

News flash: We don't design bridges for the heaviest possible truck, the highest possible wind, nor the thickest possible coating of ice. And neither does any other state in the country or any other country in the world...

Well just thanks a lot for this information given that  so many don't don't read load restriction signs.😂

[bigjim]

10 hours ago, Pappy Yokum said:

(Fukushima)

That one blows my mind. If any peoples had a vested interest in getting it right the Japanese sure did.