Texas power situation

[Wrknrvr]

  I am curious if Texas gas powered power stations use Butane. Below 33 degrees Butane will not vaporize.  Butane is cheap and i would guess they have lots of it. If you ever had a propane bottle in cold weather that still had liquid in it , yet it would not work. That was most likely butane that would not operate gas appliances.

  Now if they tried to send propane through the energy lines, that gas could encounter liquid Butane .  And possibly cause mechanical problems. But if things warm up then things will work again. I sure hope the will.

  Just curious,   Vern

[Barbaraok]

Actually it is the valves in the natural gas pipelines, etc., that will freeze up because they aren't designed to work in the type of cold/icing conditions that occurred, plus a lot of natural gas wells have water vapor carried up with the gas and that also force between they were able to 'dry' the gas.   And there was more demand for power than they had generating stations up and running to handle, they normal shut some power plants down in winter when demand is low compared to summer to do maintenance, etc.

[agesilaus]

Are my posts being deleted?

 

Take a look at what really happened, gas generation (red) actually increased by a considerable amount. From what I estimate is about 40% to 60% of the load, coal and nuke power (top two bands) remained steady or dropped a bit and wind )green) and solar (yellow) collapsed to a fraction of their usual load. The whole gas powered failed story is a lie. This is a complete failure of green power. What we have to look forward too in all states if the plans go forward.

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by agesilaus

[Barbaraok]

Power generation not gas generation.   Do you not understand that the electricity is off because they haven't got enough power generation plants running?  The ELECTRIC GRID failed.   Even if natural gas is still flowing, most homeowners can't keep furnace going because NO ELECTRICITY for electronic ignition and fans to blow warm air through the house.    What ever you heard politicians say at the start of this, do yourself a favor and read some of the Texas papers from Fort Worth, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, etc.   Only place not having a problem is El Paso because they are part of the Western Electrical Grid - too far away from any Texas grid.  

[agesilaus]

You can see from this that total power generation dropped from about 14500 GW/hr to 12000, but that wind collapsed from 2000 to 500 GW/hr. Gas dropped from 8000 to 7000 GW/hr. So wind decreased by 75% and NG by 13%. Total production is down to about 85% of what it was on 2/14. They dropped abot 2500 GW/hr and wind power makes up 60% of that loss.

Edited February 18, 2021 by agesilaus

[Barbaraok]

Wind is only 25% of the power generated in Texas and they don't requite cold wear protection.  When wind went down, other power generators COULD NOT COME BACK ON LINE so that their backup system FAILED and since they pulled out of the national electrical grid, there was no way to get extra electricity to them.   Simple methods that Iowa uses to ensure wind turbines keep going could have kept more power up, but Texas wanting to deregulate everything has proven to be a disaster.    AND some natural gas power plants that were operating also went down because they did not have adequate cold weather protection for valves, etc.   NO ONE source of power generation is adequate in a modern country.    

[agesilaus]

 

8 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

NO ONE source of power generation is adequate in a modern country.    

 

That is not true, looking at the graphs there is one power generation source that maintained a steady output. That is nuclear power. Unfortunately Texas only has two nuke plants, they should have built more rather than wasting money on wind and solar plants which are completely unreliable.

[Barbaraok]

One of the nuclear plants had problems because valves were cold weather protected, froze, and cooling water was cut off for a period of time so the system scrambled as it should and went down.   Took awhile to bring it back online.   

Why are you seeking to make excuses for the lack of adequate winter protection regulations to keep everything in place?    This was a failure made possible by 'deregulate everything' mindset.  Regulations come about because of problems that society decides should not occur!

[agesilaus]

OK that was a failure of planning. At the nuke plant I trained at in Idaho the cooling water valves had to be set in late fail before the winter freeze set in. That is because the brittle fracture point of mild steel is about -20F. And you cannot force valves around or below that temp without shattering the valves. But temps got no where close to that in Texas so they must of had other problems. That is where you live and learn, hopefully the next time that issue will be fixed.

[bigjim]

2 hours ago, Wrknrvr said:

I am curious if Texas gas powered power stations use Butane

I don't know but I would guess it would be propane.  I worked for a LPg  co. once that were pretty much converting all their customers from butane to propane as it was not nearly as likely to freeze up at least in the valves just because of what you said.   Just a guess as I don't know so this may be fake news.

[bigjim]

Hmmmm, even if wind and solar are not producing "now" pre se. How much oil and gas did they save for when they are most needed.  Seems pretty smart to me.  Must be smart in even more severe conditions. We may never be completely independent of fossils but we sure can conserve it.  Double Hmmmm, seems like a plan to me, but what do I know.

[agesilaus]

LNG is mostly methane with a freezing point around -290 deg F, it has a small amount of ethane with a higher freezing point but still very low.

[agesilaus]

3 minutes ago, bigjim said:

Hmmmm, even if wind and solar are not producing "now" pre se. How much oil and gas did they save for when they are most needed.  Seems pretty smart to me.  Must be smart in even more severe conditions. We may never be completely independent of fossils but we sure can conserve it.  Double Hmmmm, seems like a plan to me, but what do I know.

Smart would have been 2 or 3 more 1500 GW nuke plants. Green theater was wind and solar which can never be used as base loaded or peaking power power.

Edited February 18, 2021 by agesilaus

[TXiceman]

4 minutes ago, agesilaus said:

LNG is mostly methane with a freezing point around -290 deg F, it has a small amount of ethane with a higher freezing point but still very low.

The problem with the natural gas is when it is let down from high pressure to a lower pressure you get a refrigeration effect and the temperature drops.  There is often moisture or water vapor in the gas and this water will freeze in the control valves and thus the freezing.

I have been a proponent for nuclear energy for years.  We can build safe and efficient nuclear plants if the greenie folks would  understand a bit about science.

As part of the total energy solution, we need to have a mix of  solar, wind and fossil fueled plants as  well as nuclear.  Fossil fuel needs to be phased out slowly.

Ken

Edited February 18, 2021 by TXiceman

[Big Rick]

1 hour ago, Barbaraok said:

Wind is only 25% of the power generated in Texas and they don't requite cold wear protection.  When wind went down, other power generators COULD NOT COME BACK ON LINE so that their backup system FAILED and since they pulled out of the national electrical grid, there was no way to get extra electricity to them.   Simple methods that Iowa uses to ensure wind turbines keep going could have kept more power up, but Texas wanting to deregulate everything has proven to be a disaster.    AND some natural gas power plants that were operating also went down because they did not have adequate cold weather protection for valves, etc.   NO ONE source of power generation is adequate in a modern country.    

The wind turbines froze! The fear oil was used would not withstand the cold.

[Jinx & Wayne]

14 minutes ago, agesilaus said:

Smart would have been 2 or 3 more 1500 GW nuke plants. Green theater was wind and solar which can never be used as base loaded or peaking power power.

If we are looking for non-carbon generating power sources that can supply the needs of a modern society, we absolutely need to look at more nuclear power generation.  Wind and solar are non-carbon generating, but they simply will not provide the shifting load capacities our society needs.  The latter re not useless, just not enough.  We need less gas and coal and more nuke, wind and solar with an emphasis on nuke.

[Barbaraok]

26 minutes ago, Big Rick said:

The wind turbines froze! The fear oil was used would not withstand the cold.

But they don't freeze in Iowa or Sweden or Denmark or ....

They froze BECAUSE OF TEXAS DEREGULATION.   They could have been weather hardened, same as all of the valves, etc., in other power generating systems, but they weren't because of deregulation and pulling out of the national power grid. This was a Katrine-level event for the bureaucracy in Texas. 

[Barbaraok]

19 minutes ago, Jinx & Wayne said:

If we are looking for non-carbon generating power sources that can supply the needs of a modern society, we absolutely need to look at more nuclear power generation.  Wind and solar are non-carbon generating, but they simply will not provide the shifting load capacities our society needs.  The latter re not useless, just not enough.  We need less gas and coal and more nuke, wind and solar with an emphasis on nuke.

And that is how likely to happen?   We no longer have a viable site for nuclear fuel rod storage, and nothing has come on line since 3 Mile Island incident.  

[bigjim]

The obvious elephant in the room with nuclear is what to do with the by products. Solve that issue and I will be a big proponent.

bigrick am I correct that turbines on froze in some places but states and countries had no issue with their? At this point as I understand that the turbines where all functioning they are such a small % of the system they could not come close to providing what we need.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another speculation is that a cold enough temps I would guess a lot of oil would have trouble flowing which could cause issues with pump and valves also.

[Chalkie]

4 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

And that is how likely to happen?   We no longer have a viable site for nuclear fuel rod storage, and nothing has come on line since 3 Mile Island incident.  

Not so. Quotes from US Energy Information Administration:

Quote

In 2016, the Tennessee Valley Authority's (TVA) Watts Bar Unit 2 in Tennessee became the first new U.S. reactor to come online since 1996.

Quote

The two new reactors that are now under construction—Vogtle Units 3 and 4—in Georgia are expected to come online between 2021 and 2022.

We are still building reactors. And if you look at this reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#United_States you find that a number have come on line since 3 Mile Island. 

Currently a multi-national effort to build a fusion reactor is underway in Saint-Paul-lez-Durance, France. If fusion reactors can be perfected nuclear will definitely be the power source of the future. Here is an article in Scientific American.

[hemsteadc]

59 minutes ago, bigjim said:

Hmmmm, even if wind and solar are not producing "now" pre se. How much oil and gas did they save for when they are most needed. 

If wind and solar are such whipping boys now, how did they get built in the first place?  And, does the wind blow 24/7 in Texas?

[Barbaraok]

Charlie, I looked at the list, but nothing started operation in DECADES.  Building it doesn't ensure it will become operational.  Still the problem with no waste since since Yukon Mountain (which is safe) was shut down.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Barbaraok

[agesilaus]

Green Power politics. The squeaky wheel gets the political money. And republicans obviously fell under the spell too in Texas.

[Barbaraok]

3 minutes ago, hemsteadc said:

If wind and solar are such whipping boys now, how did they get built in the first place?  And, does the wind blow 24/7 in Texas?

In some parts of the state it really does blow just about 24/7.   Sort of like Oklahoma - windy every day "And the wind comes sweeping down the plains!"

[agesilaus]

Just now, Barbaraok said:

Charlie, I looked at the list, but nothing started operation in DECADES.  Building it doesn't ensure it will become operational.  Still the problem with no waste since since Yukon Mountain (which is safe) was shut down.

I don't recall hearing about any nuke plants starts. The are supposedly looking at building some but with the admin change in DC who knows.