Best battery, lithium?

[chief916]

Looking to change out the SLABs on my toy hauler and travel trailer.  Been thinking bout lithium batteries.  Any info about them AND recommendation would be appreciated.  I know nothing about them but have heard they're way better than what I have now.

thanks.

[jcussen]

10 minutes ago, chief916 said:

Looking to change out the SLABs on my toy hauler and travel trailer.  Been thinking bout lithium batteries.  Any info about them AND recommendation would be appreciated.  I know nothing about them but have heard they're way better than what I have now.

thanks

Some good info here.  https://battlebornbatteries.com/

[mptjelgin]

I changed 4 golf cart batteries over to two Renogy 100aH Lithium Ion batteries and saved quite a lot of weight (248 pounds for the 4, Trojan T-105 vs. 52 pounds for the 2, Renogy 100aH Lithium Iron Phosphate), with nearly (but not quite) the same usable storage capacity.  They are also physically smaller which may be a plus depending on your battery compartment. I ended up having to cut wood spacers to allow the new batteries to fit in the same tray without sliding around. 

I have an inverter/charger that allowed me to create a specific charging profile (Constant Current, Constant Voltage, or CCCV for short) for the lithium ion batteries, but companies will give you what is an acceptable existing  profile from the most common models of chargers. 

Renogy lists their batteries at $899 right now, but they regularly run sales and I got mine for less than $700 each. Still pretty steep, but I was ready to make the change. 

[Nwcid]

Well "way better" is a subject term.  What are you trying to accomplish and how much do you want to spend to get there?

Do you already have a charger/charging system that is compatible with Lithium?

Big generalization here, but this is the reason to choose different types of batteries. 

FLA batteries: Low cost/AH

AGM batteries: Provide smiler ratings as FLA but no maintenance and reduced corrosion from no/very minimal off gassing. Cost 1.5-2x of FLA but 1/3-1/2 the cost of lithium.

Lithium batteries: Large output and large reserve as you can use 80-100% of rated AH vs ~50% on FLA or AGM. Need to conserve weight.

 

In my current system I really looked at and wanted lithium but I was not willing to pay for it and weight is not an issue for me.  I have 675 AH (so roughly 325 AH usable) AGM batteries.  Cost was just under $1300 shipped.  Downside is almost 450lbs of weight. Depending on which lithium batteries I get I would need 3-4 to get 325 usable AH.  At the time I looked the best price was $950/100 AH of lithium.  That means I am $3000-$4000 or ~2-3x the cost, even at $700/100 AH I that would still be $2100-$2800 which is a little better.  Yes, I would love to have 500AH of lithium but in my case the numbers do not work out.  Some day it will.  

[Jaydrvr]

8 hours ago, Nwcid said:

Well "way better" is a subject term.  What are you trying to accomplish and how much do you want to spend to get there?

Do you already have a charger/charging system that is compatible with Lithium?

Big generalization here, but this is the reason to choose different types of batteries. 

FLA batteries: Low cost/AH

AGM batteries: Provide smiler ratings as FLA but no maintenance and reduced corrosion from no/very minimal off gassing. Cost 1.5-2x of FLA but 1/3-1/2 the cost of lithium.

Lithium batteries: Large output and large reserve as you can use 80-100% of rated AH vs ~50% on FLA or AGM. Need to conserve weight.

 

In my current system I really looked at and wanted lithium but I was not willing to pay for it and weight is not an issue for me.  I have 675 AH (so roughly 325 AH usable) AGM batteries.  Cost was just under $1300 shipped.  Downside is almost 450lbs of weight. Depending on which lithium batteries I get I would need 3-4 to get 325 usable AH.  At the time I looked the best price was $950/100 AH of lithium.  That means I am $3000-$4000 or ~2-3x the cost, even at $700/100 AH I that would still be $2100-$2800 which is a little better.  Yes, I would love to have 500AH of lithium but in my case the numbers do not work out.  Some day it will.  

Very well put, but there are two other interesting points about lithium that should be mentioned. One, the significantly longer cycle life. Lithiums may have five to ten times the cycle life available, making them often a much lower cost per cycle than lead acid. If you plan to keep them for ten years or so, the lithium generally comes out ahead. 

The other factor is the Peukert's law effect. I often have to run my charger to run my microwave, etc. on my AGMs, where Lithiums don't have the voltage sag associated with heavy loads. That alone is almost worth the price, to me. Jay

[Randyretired]

There are some very informative videos on you tube about lithium batteries. These videos range from customer reviews on batteries to how to build batteries.   I have decided to build my own batteries from LifeP04 cells.  It looks to be relatively easy.  This is the least expensive way to go lithium but you give up warranties and customer service.  On the other end there are companies that provide 10 year warranties and by most accounts excellent customer service.  Battle Born comes to mind but the price is significantly higher.  Lithium batteries will perform best when matched to lithium chargers.  Some chargers have lithium settings and some don't.  Lithium batteries last longer and are much more efficient than lead acid batteries.  It has been shown that lithium batteries are cheaper over time.  In any case I think you will find a lot more information on you tube than here.

[chief916]

30 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

There are some very informative videos on you tube about lithium batteries. These videos range from customer reviews on batteries to how to build batteries.   I have decided to build my own batteries from LifeP04 cells.  It looks to be relatively easy.  This is the least expensive way to go lithium but you give up warranties and customer service.  On the other end there are companies that provide 10 year warranties and by most accounts excellent customer service.  Battle Born comes to mind but the price is significantly higher.  Lithium batteries will perform best when matched to lithium chargers.  Some chargers have lithium settings and some don't.  Lithium batteries last longer and are much more efficient than lead acid batteries.  It has been shown that lithium batteries are cheaper over time.  In any case I think you will find a lot more information on you tube than here.

So the charger in my toy hauler and my TT will not effectively charge a 100 ah li battery?

[chief916]

3 hours ago, Jaydrvr said:

Very well put, but there are two other interesting points about lithium that should be mentioned. One, the significantly longer cycle life. Lithiums may have five to ten times the cycle life available, making them often a much lower cost per cycle than lead acid. If you plan to keep them for ten years or so, the lithium generally comes out ahead. 

The other factor is the Peukert's law effect. I often have to run my charger to run my microwave, etc. on my AGMs, where Lithiums don't have the voltage sag associated with heavy loads. That alone is almost worth the price, to me. Jay

You can run your microwave just off a battery??

[chief916]

11 hours ago, Nwcid said:

Well "way better" is a subject term.  What are you trying to accomplish and how much do you want to spend to get there?

Do you already have a charger/charging system that is compatible with Lithium?

Big generalization here, but this is the reason to choose different types of batteries. 

FLA batteries: Low cost/AH

AGM batteries: Provide smiler ratings as FLA but no maintenance and reduced corrosion from no/very minimal off gassing. Cost 1.5-2x of FLA but 1/3-1/2 the cost of lithium.

Lithium batteries: Large output and large reserve as you can use 80-100% of rated AH vs ~50% on FLA or AGM. Need to conserve weight.

 

In my current system I really looked at and wanted lithium but I was not willing to pay for it and weight is not an issue for me.  I have 675 AH (so roughly 325 AH usable) AGM batteries.  Cost was just under $1300 shipped.  Downside is almost 450lbs of weight. Depending on which lithium batteries I get I would need 3-4 to get 325 usable AH.  At the time I looked the best price was $950/100 AH of lithium.  That means I am $3000-$4000 or ~2-3x the cost, even at $700/100 AH I that would still be $2100-$2800 which is a little better.  Yes, I would love to have 500AH of lithium but in my case the numbers do not work out.  Some day it will.  

I don't full time so i wouldn't need but just one 100 ah li battery I guess.  They are indeed pricey but seeing how I have only one 12v slab in the TT and 2 6v in the toyhauler i could switch a 100 ah lithium back and forth between them.....what do you think?  Would that be practical?

[Jaydrvr]

10 minutes ago, chief916 said:

So the charger in my toy hauler and my TT will not effectively charge a 100 ah li battery?

It may or may not. You have to check the specs. For example, mine has plugin modules for different battery chemistries. Yours may too. Jay

[Jaydrvr]

10 minutes ago, chief916 said:

You can run your microwave just off a battery??

Weelllll, yes. But of course, there's an inverter between the microwave and the batteries. Jay

[chief916]

12 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

I changed 4 golf cart batteries over to two Renogy 100aH Lithium Ion batteries and saved quite a lot of weight (248 pounds for the 4, Trojan T-105 vs. 52 pounds for the 2, Renogy 100aH Lithium Iron Phosphate), with nearly (but not quite) the same usable storage capacity.  They are also physically smaller which may be a plus depending on your battery compartment. I ended up having to cut wood spacers to allow the new batteries to fit in the same tray without sliding around. 

I have an inverter/charger that allowed me to create a specific charging profile (Constant Current, Constant Voltage, or CCCV for short) for the lithium ion batteries, but companies will give you what is an acceptable existing  profile from the most common models of chargers. 

Renogy lists their batteries at $899 right now, but they regularly run sales and I got mine for less than $700 each. Still pretty steep, but I was ready to make the change. 

Would the Renogy come with a charger ready for plug and play?

[Jaydrvr]

3 minutes ago, chief916 said:

I don't full time so i wouldn't need but just one 100 ah li battery I guess.  They are indeed pricey but seeing how I have only one 12v slab in the TT and 2 6v in the toyhauler i could switch a 100 ah lithium back and forth between them.....what do you think?  Would that be practical?

A 100 ah battery is pretty minimal. You'd have to do an energy audit to see if that would work. Jay

[chief916]

2 minutes ago, Jaydrvr said:

It may or may not. You have to check the specs. For example, mine has plugin modules for different battery chemistries. Yours may too. Jay

Jay, how would I know this?  Where could I look to find this out?  I am in no way an electrician.

[chief916]

12 hours ago, jcussen said:

Some good info here.  https://battlebornbatteries.com/

Thank you for this info.  I will check this out.

[Jaydrvr]

18 minutes ago, chief916 said:

Jay, how would I know this?  Where could I look to find this out?  I am in no way an electrician.

Start with the brand name and model of your charger. You can then look it up, or you can share it here and we'll help look it up. Lithiums are actually pretty forgiving of charge profiles, but they do need enough voltage to fully charge. Jay

[chief916]

Ok fellas.  Thank you to all of you for your inputs.  My head is abuzz with all this info.  Once it gets warmer I'm going to go out and look at my charges on my stuff and get back here with the info.

Just finished up looking at the Battleborn site.  Will be looking at Renogy and Lakota as well.  I'll keep you posted.

V/R 

Ben. "chief916"

 

 

[Jaydrvr]

8 minutes ago, chief916 said:

Ok fellas.  Thank you to all of you for your inputs.  My head is abuzz with all this info.  Once it gets warmer I'm going to go out and look at my charges on my stuff and get back here with the info.

Just finished up looking at the Battleborn site.  Will be looking at Renogy and Lakota as well.  I'll keep you posted.

V/R 

Ben. "chief916"

 

 

Good luck on your project! Just FYI, the lithiums are light enough that swapping them between two units is a lot more doable than back breaking lead. Jay

[mptjelgin]

1 hour ago, chief916 said:

Would the Renogy come with a charger ready for plug and play?

Renogy does sell chargers, but they are not included with the batteries. Many existing chargers will work with proper settings. 

[Chad Heiser]

It sounds like you do not have inverters or solar in either of your rigs from what you are describing.  I’m going to go against the grain here and say if my assumption about your rigs is correct, I would not put lithium batteries in them.  Lithium batteries are ideal for high draw, high usage installations. If all you are using your battery for is to keep the 12 volt lights on, run the RV fridge on gas while traveling and other basic draws, then lithium is overkill for your usage.  Unless you have inverter(s), solar, boondock for extended periods or have some other specific reason for going lithium, the cost is too high currently to justify making the switch.  I may be off base in my assumption, but if not I would need a good reason in your situation to look at lithium.

[DesertMiner]

Go for it!
Lithium for the win!
It’s your RV and your $$$!
You understand your RV and how you use it!
Do the research and make an “educated” choice.

I would wager if you choose to go Lithium you will understand the popularity of this newer technology.   

 

 

 

[sandsys]

My understanding is only one brand of lithium batteries can be put inside an RV without vents. I got that information here: https://www.embassyrv.com/features/embassy-battery-systems

The picture of the red battery is right inside the slider door of a Ford Transit van.

Linda Sand

[Chad Heiser]

8 minutes ago, sandsys said:

My understanding is only one brand of lithium batteries can be put inside an RV without vents. I got that information here: https://www.embassyrv.com/features/embassy-battery-systems

The picture of the red battery is right inside the slider door of a Ford Transit van.

Linda Sand

I have done a lot of research on lithium batteries and that is the first time I have ever seen a claim that lithium batteries need to be vented like they claim.  I would be curious to see their source material for that.

[jcussen]

1 hour ago, Chad Heiser said:

I have done a lot of research on lithium batteries and that is the first time I have ever seen a claim that lithium batteries need to be vented like they claim.  I would be curious to see their source material for that.

I would too, only way my battleborn's could vent is if the battery case was actually broken, but pretty sure the BMS would shut them down before that stage was reached.

[sandsys]

I guess this sentence gave me that impresson, "The UL listing makes our battery the only one of its kind that’s allowed to be installed inside the vehicle". Maybe they meant they would only install UL listed batteries and this is the only would that had been through that process.

Linda