Park model or metal house.

[GlennWest]

2 hours ago, Randyretired said:

I put radiant in floor heat in our present house and it is great.  I looped 1/2" pex every 10" in the concrete slab before it was poured.  It uses a high efficiency propane hot water heater to heat the water.  This is a stainless tank heater with over 100,000 btu's.  This water heater is so efficient it uses plastic pipe for the air inlet and exhaust.  A small pump circulates the water.  This system also has solar assist with hot water solar panels incorporated into it   In floor heat is by far the most comfortable heat.  Our annual propane bill for hot water and heat runs about $200 in Colorado.  That is less than $20 a month.  I would never want to go back to forced air heat or even hot water radiators.  This system is planned for our new house also. As has been posted insulation under the slab is very important.  New insulation standards require this now for any concrete floor in a house.  I saw an ad for a heat pump that will heat water for infloor heat for moderate climates.  It is a mini split type of setup and should be very efficient.  It will cool some but in floor cooling doesn't work very well.  Since heating requirements are not significant for Glenn's climate a simple mini split will be hard to beat.

Have you got the Polaris hot water heater. Sounds like it by what you stated.

[Randyretired]

2 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Randy I saw that unit researching. Looks just like our outside units. Saden SANCO2. Lowest setting on it is 130. Would that be too hot

Generally 140F is the limit due to framing.  I have our heat loops limited to that.  However, concrete can withstand significantly higher temperatures without any problems.  140F water circulating through 250' loops would work well.  Of course the floor won't be that hot.  With the insulation you are planning in your climate you may not see floor temperatures over 80F unless you are planning a lot of thick carpet.  When I reached out to them about their unit they said they can help with the planning and system layout.  I am sure their system will require a holding tank and maybe it can provide hot water to?  Code requires that heating water and potable water are separated.  That is usually accomplished with heat exchangers.  If I remember that unit is priced around $4,000ish.

[Randyretired]

22 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

Have you got the Polaris hot water heater. Sounds like it by what you stated.

Wow you have been doing some research.  The hot water heater I have is similar to the Polaris.  Just a different brand.  I found a deal on a used heater on Ebay about 20 years ago. 

[GlennWest]

12 hours ago, Randyretired said:

Wow you have been doing some research.  The hot water heater I have is similar to the Polaris.  Just a different brand.  I found a deal on a used heater on Ebay about 20 years ago. 

I may get the Polaris unit. Wanted to stay away from gas. Have to use LP. I question if the heat pump unit be enough. It is like 25k btu. Polaris is 100k btu. They spec Polaris for radiant heat. With my small space it be overkill but no more propane than it used according to you, may be way to go. 

[Randyretired]

If you want in floor heat it is an easy way to go.  If you also have a mini split you could supplement it when you just need to take the chill off.  If you are planning solar you could use the mini split when extra power is available.  You will love the in floor heat.  One thing I ran into is the normal thermostats have a 4 degree swing and that is to wide.  I use a 2 degree swing thermostat and with the concrete working as a mass to slowly warm and cool it really works well.  When we set the temperature it stays at that setting and hardly varies even one degree. 

I prefer the pex manifolds on Ebay that have the valves built in.  Smaller than others and quick to set up.  Usually cheaper than others and cheaper than I can make my own.

[GlennWest]

33 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

If you want in floor heat it is an easy way to go.  If you also have a mini split you could supplement it when you just need to take the chill off.  If you are planning solar you could use the mini split when extra power is available.  You will love the in floor heat.  One thing I ran into is the normal thermostats have a 4 degree swing and that is to wide.  I use a 2 degree swing thermostat and with the concrete working as a mass to slowly warm and cool it really works well.  When we set the temperature it stays at that setting and hardly varies even one degree. 

I prefer the pex manifolds on Ebay that have the valves built in.  Smaller than others and quick to set up.  Usually cheaper than others and cheaper than I can make my own.

Randy, on a 750 sw ft can I get by with 1 continues loop or do I need more. More I read on this the more questions I have

[Randyretired]

31 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

Randy, on a 750 sw ft can I get by with 1 continues loop or do I need more. More I read on this the more questions I have

I like to keep the loops to 250' maximum.  If you put pex every 12" you will need 750' of pipe.  So 3 loops.  If you want the loops closer than that more loops.  Some stretch the loops to 300' but 250' seems to work better.   I assume you have seen the Radiant Tec information.  If not check that out.  Our system, not including the solar uses a hot water heater for both domestic hot water and heat.  One line from the water heater goes to domestic uses and has a T going off to a pump then a heat exchanger and back to the water heater.  The floor loops run water through the other port on the heat exchanger through a pump, on to the floor loops and then back to the heat exchanger.  2 different loops.  One thermostatic controller starts and stops both pumps as the thermostat demands.  Since the water in the floor loops is sealed you need a way to fill the loops.  Either an auto fill using a pressure controlled valve or manually hook a hose to it and fill it while watching a pressure gauge. There needs to be valves that can be opened to let the air escape.  The floor loop also needs an expansion tank and a automatic valve to expel air any air left from filling.  I also like to use a check valve so the water in the loops can only flow in one direction.  That is needed more with solar but it is cheap.  This can be a little confusing at first so let me know if I can help.  If necessary we can plan a phone call.

[GlennWest]

Yes, been on that site reading. How much BTU do you think I need. I would like to not use gas but not finding any heat pump units recommend for this. Also on the Raniantec site they show a way to plumb cold water in at top and keep fresh water in loops year round. No need for heat exchanger. This seems a better setup if legal in our area. Thoughts. Thanks for everything.

Edited February 12, 2021 by GlennWest

[lappir]

This is certainly an interesting project. 

I know nothing from personal use with the Geothermal, but know a person who did one in North Central Kansas several years ago on a new home. It was a large home too, so not exactly what you are looking at. I have read a recent article in I believe the "Mother Earth News", where the person utilized the maximum depth his mini excavator would dig  to decrease the length of his run by stacking loops  to get the required (or recommended) length without having  to cover as much ground. There was also a suggestion to utilize a deep pond of water as the constant temperature source instead of the ground. The only requirement for the water is that it does not EVER freeze completely. 

 There are so many ways to use heat by moving it to another area, there should be the same amount of uses of the cooling.

I have been amazed with my Mini Split putting out 88 to 90 degree air 40 feet from the source when the temperature hasn't been above 27 for the last several days. My prior "Coleman Heat Pump" would have declined to run and would have given the heating job to the propane furnace. 

I for one will be interested in your final choices and how they work out over the next several years. 

 

Rod

[GlennWest]

5 minutes ago, lappir said:

This is certainly an interesting project. 

I know nothing from personal use with the Geothermal, but know a person who did one in North Central Kansas several years ago on a new home. It was a large home too, so not exactly what you are looking at. I have read a recent article in I believe the "Mother Earth News", where the person utilized the maximum depth his mini excavator would dig  to decrease the length of his run by stacking loops  to get the required (or recommended) length without having  to cover as much ground. There was also a suggestion to utilize a deep pond of water as the constant temperature source instead of the ground. The only requirement for the water is that it does not EVER freeze completely. 

 There are so many ways to use heat by moving it to another area, there should be the same amount of uses of the cooling.

I have been amazed with my Mini Split putting out 88 to 90 degree air 40 feet from the source when the temperature hasn't been above 27 for the last several days. My prior "Coleman Heat Pump" would have declined to run and would have given the heating job to the propane furnace. 

I for one will be interested in your final choices and how they work out over the next several years. 

 

Rod

Do you find your feet are rather cool with the mini split? Ours heat good below freezing but floor stays cold. Hot air raises and mini split units are high. Concerning my future home with the concrete floor has me concerned. Reason I an researching this.

Edited February 12, 2021 by GlennWest

[lappir]

Just now, GlennWest said:

Do you find your feet are rather cool with the mini split? Ours heat good below freezing but floor stays cold. Hot air raises and mini split units are high.

Not any colder than with the prior Coleman Mach and the propane furnace. I have not used the propane since the Mini Split installation and have been in some pretty cold areas. Not as cold as the first month with the trailer, but I think the Mini split would do OK. The Heat Pump did not. 

I thought about floor heating when I planned the build. It was 2012 or 2013 and not much had been done and I couldn't get a firm price on the cost, so I didn't do it. I should have in the bathroom and the living area, may do it if I ever change the flooring, but have gotten used to having some type of "house shoes" on all the time  and I actually like the cold more than being warm, so I'm good. 

 

Rod

[GlennWest]

My propane furnace will really heat it up fast. Floor also. I may need to close off my factory air ducts. I may have a lot of heat going up there 

[Randyretired]

2 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Yes, been on that site reading. How much BTU do you think I need. I would like to not use gas but not finding any heat pump units recommend for this. Also on the Raniantec site they show a way to plumb cold water in at top and keep fresh water in loops year round. No need for heat exchanger. This seems a better setup if legal in our area. Thoughts. Thanks for everything.

I will have to think about how many btu's you need.  There is some information on the web.  It depends on the insulation, windows, size of house and climate.  Another consideration is flooring type.  Tile or just concrete will transfer the heat better than carpet.  Carpet will require much hotter floors to transfer the heat.  For sure 100,000 btu's is way more than needed.  I am using 160,000 btu's for 3800 sq ft and the water heater still cycles a lot.  Meaning it is bigger than necessary. 

The Radiant Tec plan of using the loops and mixing with potable water isn't approved here.   Leaving water for extended time in the loops when it isn't needed and then circulate that stale water back into the potable water pipes later doesn't sound like a good idea.  For that reason it is not approved in many areas.  It has some advantages but that one big problem has convinced me not to use it.  

[Randyretired]

A properly insulated floor with a ceiling fan to move the heat down will eliminate much of the cold feet problem with a mini split.   Another way to heat is to use a pellet stove.  These burn clean and are pretty efficient.   Pellet stoves are reasonably cheap to use but you have to fill it and empty the ashes.  However as an assist to a mini split it might be a pretty good setup for a lot less $$ and work.  Another possibility would be to put pex in the concrete and decide after you have lived there if you want to add in floor heat.  Pex is not expensive.  I just recently bought some for $47 delivered for 250' rolls.

[GlennWest]

23 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

I will have to think about how many btu's you need.  There is some information on the web.  It depends on the insulation, windows, size of house and climate.  Another consideration is flooring type.  Tile or just concrete will transfer the heat better than carpet.  Carpet will require much hotter floors to transfer the heat.  For sure 100,000 btu's is way more than needed.  I am using 160,000 btu's for 3800 sq ft and the water heater still cycles a lot.  Meaning it is bigger than necessary. 

The Radiant Tec plan of using the loops and mixing with potable water isn't approved here.   Leaving water for extended time in the loops when it isn't needed and then circulate that stale water back into the potable water pipes later doesn't sound like a good idea.  For that reason it is not approved in many areas.  It has some advantages but that one big problem has convinced me not to use it.  

No the way they show it gets circulated everytime a faucet is opened so no stale water ever. 

[GlennWest]

28 minutes ago, Randyretired said:

A properly insulated floor with a ceiling fan to move the heat down will eliminate much of the cold feet problem with a mini split.   Another way to heat is to use a pellet stove.  These burn clean and are pretty efficient.   Pellet stoves are reasonably cheap to use but you have to fill it and empty the ashes.  However as an assist to a mini split it might be a pretty good setup for a lot less $$ and work.  Another possibility would be to put pex in the concrete and decide after you have lived there if you want to add in floor heat.  Pex is not expensive.  I just recently bought some for $47 delivered for 250' rolls.

Yes going to put the pex and manifold in the concrete regardless. I will have to have hot water so researching this now. Any high efficiency water heater is costly. So after this most of cost is done. I will have solar and hope to not use utility much if any. So want it as efficient as possible. Don't want any LP fuel if possible. The heat pump unit is only 15.4k btu. And I understand from research 25 btu per square ft is average needed. I should be above average on insulation so heat pump unit may work.

Edited February 12, 2021 by GlennWest

[GlennWest]

I am reading that the condensing tankless units can be used for radiant heating. I would have to do gas with them. Can buy 2 of them for the price of the high end heat pump water heater units. One for heat and one potable. But Radiant site is stating use a heat exchanger and it works great. They recommend the Takegi tankless units. They recommend a 160,000 btu or the 199,000 btu. Found the 160k for $879.00. That is also an outside unit. The propane distributor is close by and great people to deal with. Been filling my bottles there. This will take some load off of my solar also. Understanding one gets some cooling with the radiant heat system too in summer so that would lessen load on mini split. This sounding better already. And now that I have propane in the mix I need to look at the range also. That be up to DW.

Edited February 12, 2021 by GlennWest

[noteven]

On 2/10/2021 at 4:50 PM, GlennWest said:

I know they make them. I build such working maintenance while in NC. Who makes the one you looking at?

The company is called Artspan, Winkler, Manitoba

Link to Artspan website

You also asked another question I missed regarding slab heat - yes - we place the hydronic lines at the bottom of the slab on top of insulation.  If you don't insulate you are buying energy to try to heat the earth under the structure. Then when it warms up it overheats the interior due to "flywheel effect". 

A company called Beaver Plastics makes an insulation for this that holds the pipe circuits as you lay them out:

Heat sheet insulation

We literally would set thermostats in the various zones in late October and not touch them all winter. 

The other key to air tight well insulated radiant heated construction is to provide adequate controlled ventilation through a heat recovery ventilator type device, and to control humidity because you are not heating the air. 

Or in our case, the fuel cost was such that we used to open a window, because the whole building - floor, materials, furniture, occupants - is at a comfortable temperature supplied by a radiant heating system.  Radiant floors are infrared radiation (IR like the sun). You can install this heat in the walls or ceiling if you wanted to. It still heats. It does not "rise".  A floor will add some convective heating as well. 

We also used triple glazed titanium coated window glass. The coating reflects IR arriving at an angle, and allows in more as it arrives closer to 90 degrees. So the IR off the radiant floor is mostly reflected back inside, as is the high summer sun. Low winter sun would allow heat in. 

We have fire fighters in the family. So one -15F winter night we pointed an IR camera at the house. It may sound crazy but there was slightly less heat loss through the glass vs where wood stud framing extended through the wall with no insulation bridge. 

And then another way of supplying comfortable quiet heat is through convectors which is how electric, hot water, or steam baseboard heat works - located by exterior walls and windows, the convectors quietly set up a warming of air drawn off the floor which rises up the cold wall.  My Cirrus truck camper has this. Really comfortable. 

But... if you like to use the thermostat as a throttle then heated forced air is the ticket, if you don't mind the "cold draft at 70 degrees" feeling.  Heating with hot air turns the building into a hot air balloon, with the hot air trying to leave by any means out the top, being replaced with cold air leaking in the bottom.

Anyway sounds like a fun project. 

[GlennWest]

Folks I have been trying to find Walker County regulations on radiant heat. Nothing I find mentions this. Main item question is direct or indirect system. Not using heat exchanger for potable water. Also total cost, system, WH, customized WH disconnects for draining, single zone, no heat exchanger comes to 2300.00. Very low cost

Edited February 13, 2021 by GlennWest

[Randyretired]

2 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Folks I have been trying to find Walker County regulations on radiant heat. Nothing I find mentions this. Main item question is direct or indirect system. Not using heat exchanger for potable water. Also total cost, system, WH, customized WH disconnects for draining, single zone, no heat exchanger comes to 2300.00. Very low cost

The use of heat exchangers here is part of the plumbing code.  Trying to research all of the codes for the different trades is a daunting task.  Many places add their own local rules to boot.  When I am truly stumped I call the inspectors.  Even then it is advisable to listen to how they respond.  20 years ago an inspector came to inspect our plumbing a heating.  In floor heat was relatively new and I added a bunch of hot water solar to it, which really complicated it. The inspector looked at it and checked a few things.  Then he asked ME if it was all up to code.  I told him I was pretty sure it was so he signed off on it.  It is difficult to know all of the codes.  Sometimes even the inspectors don't  know everything but they know most things.  I just call our building department and tell the person that answers I am a home owner planning my new home and I have a question.  Here at least they have been helpful.

[GlennWest]

I searched for hours today. I have time since this won't start until later this year. My thinking now is plumb it for no heat exchanger unless I hear different. The Radiantec site show how to keep it circulated and fresh. 

[Kirk W]

19 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Folks I have been trying to find Walker County regulations on radiant heat.

Many TX counties have no construction codes or inspectors. The state regulates wells, septic systems and public utilities. In both Hood & Smith counties, the county did send out an inspector to check and approve new septic systems. I suspect that you will find that to be true in Walker Co. as well. In Smith Co., the city of Tyler does have codes and code inspectors but out in the rural, unincorporated areas there is no inspection other than septic. 

[GlennWest]

52 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

Many TX counties have no construction codes or inspectors. The state regulates wells, septic systems and public utilities. In both Hood & Smith counties, the county did send out an inspector to check and approve new septic systems. I suspect that you will find that to be true in Walker Co. as well. In Smith Co., the city of Tyler does have codes and code inspectors but out in the rural, unincorporated areas there is no inspection other than septic. 

I picked up a copy of my permit. She stated that was only one. Mentions sewer only. well i finally found the Texas regulations. Read the section on potable water, hyrophic heating and water heaters. stated 140 degrees rating. NO mention of keeping separate. Did state when using hot water for heating and potable to keep under 140 degrees. So looks like I good with the way I want ot plumb. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by GlennWest

[GlennWest]

Back on the water heater, found several topics on using Saden co2 heat pump units with combo radiant heating and potable. So that is doable. It is costly unfortunately. But with the current political establishment, please no politics here, Do you think going with propane will be a mistake?  I understand the attack on crude oil will send prices sky high. Now according to a previous post one uses only $20.00 per month on propane. But triple that would be $60.00 per month. ouch. The Saden CO2 unit only needs a 15 amp breaker so mini split power usage. I will contact Radiantec about this unit before commiting.