Wire size long run

[Jaydrvr]

14 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

Ok then. Have not pulled but max 30ish amps for a year on either leg. I might add a 30 gallon hot water heater if mine fails. I will likely run #1 copper. Just have to run conduit with that size. Can get #6 direct burial

Since you're cooking with electric, those appliances don't care much about voltage drop. Any resistive device doesn't much care about voltage drop, but your mini splits and microwave might. Jay

[GlennWest]

I was just talking to the park owner. Asked him about the wiring here. He has #8 up to 200' then #6 from there. States no problem the whole time here except for some aluminum he ran. Had to change it out. We are a good 200' from the service here on this site and no problems. There is #8 at my site. 124v at my pedestal. Just looked at it. He offered me free and pedestal for use at our land. Stated he had 5 extra and didn't need it. I said thank you. So that is what we are using in parks.

[Darryl&Rita]

I don't think I'd use RV parks as an example of quality electrical installations.

[GlennWest]

42 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

I don't think I'd use RV parks as an example of quality electrical installations.

Understand what you stating. But I have been in rv parks full time for nearly a decade. Never had a power issue but once and park corrected a bad connection on his pedestal. 

[oldjohnt]

13 hours ago, GlennWest said:

So that is what we are using in parks.

   FWIW I agree with Darryl & Rita,

  I would instead state  "that is what is in use at THAT park" THAT IS "NOT NECESSARILY" WHAT THE NEC MAY OR MAY NOT ALLOW (several factors come into play) due to Line Voltage Drop considerations. 

  I was a power distribution design engineer for years who practiced under NEC rules and attended  regular seminars and workshops and for the third time under the NEC I 1) Computed the Maximum Continuous Current,,,,,,,,,,,,2) Sized the Conductors to have a minimum ampacity of 125% of the MCC,,,,,,Calculated Voltage Drop and upgraded  as necessary AND BELIEVE ME 50 AMPS USING 8 OR EVEN 6  GAUGE WIRE  WHEN YOU START TALKING 200 OR 300 FEET CREATES A SIGNIFICANT VOLTAGE DROP .

 NOTE HOWEVER a private park (unless inspection or NEC applies or local rules) is free to do as they please,,,,,,,,,,, Some parks might NOT use a qualified licensed electrician or install service themselves,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Its MUCH cheaper to use smaller wire,,,,,,,,,,Its NO telling how some parks are wired

 The unloaded voltage IS NOT WHAT COUNTS. If several RV's plug in and run AC's THEN VOLTAGE DROP REARS ITS UGLY HEAD. IE it may be 120 now but if several RV's plug in it may drop big time.

 BOTTOM LINE  Any person or park is free to wire as they please regardless if its safe or proper or NEC approved and it can still "work" but in my 49 years of RV experience in parks all over the USA as an engineer its my opinion that's                  NOT "what we are using in parks"   even if that one does !!

 Be safe yall take care, and wire anyway you please 

John T

[Jaydrvr]

13 hours ago, GlennWest said:

I was just talking to the park owner. Asked him about the wiring here. He has #8 up to 200' then #6 from there. States no problem the whole time here except for some aluminum he ran. Had to change it out. We are a good 200' from the service here on this site and no problems. There is #8 at my site. 124v at my pedestal. Just looked at it. He offered me free and pedestal for use at our land. Stated he had 5 extra and didn't need it. I said thank you. So that is what we are using in parks.

There's no way I would run either #8 or #6 for 200'. The park owner typically doesn't know or care what is happening at the user end. He just knows he's getting away with it. Plus, most users aren't monitoring their voltage or understand it. They just plug in and go. But of course, for your personal setup, you have to do what works best for you. Good luck. Jay

[noteven]

Aren't codes kind of "minimums" ? 

Aren't wire sizing tables kind of "minimums" ? 

signed,

A Electrical Dummy

 

[oldjohnt]

1 minute ago, Jaydrvr said:

The park owner typically doesn't know or care what is happening at the user end. He just knows he's getting away with it. Plus, most users aren't monitoring their voltage or understand it. They just plug in and go. But of course, for your personal setup, you have to do what works best for you. Good luck. Jay

AMEN to that Jay as based on my 49 years using RV parks all over the USA. 

John T

[oldjohnt]

20 minutes ago, noteven said:

Aren't codes kind of "minimums" ? 

Aren't wire sizing tables kind of "minimums" ? 

signed,

noteven, that's often correct, the NEC in many cases specifies the MINIMUM requirements while perhaps EITHER the appliance manufacturer (they fear low voltage may harm their equipment)   orrrrrrrrr   the NEC at the same  MAXIMUM allowable Voltage Drops......which in turn  INCREASES the MINIMUM requirements. Its all in there lol the NEC (I used when an EE)  is often more complicated and harder to read then the law books I later studied in law school grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 

PS while I'm glad to help out and state what my training and experience has taught me (NO warranty, I'm long retired and codes change)

 I SUPPORT GLENN OR ANYONES RIGHT TO WIRE AS THEY WELL PLEASE 

John T

Edited January 6, 2021 by oldjohnt

[oldjohnt]

15 hours ago, GlennWest said:

We are a good 200' from the service here on this site and no problems. There is #8 at my site. 124v at my pedestal. Just looked at it

Thanks for the info Glenn, that helps me look at Voltage Drop IF THE TABLE IS CORRECT NO WARRANTY ITS NOT MINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! maybe I didn't use it correct ??? Rely on YOUR measurements NOT mine................

Remember Voltage = I x R so there's zero drop UNTIL you plug in and draw current......IE once you plug in and draw 30 amps WATCH THAT VOLTAGE DROPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

6 Gauge Copper,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,30 Amps,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,200 Feet,,,,,,,,= 4.74 VD = 3.95% 

8 Gauge Copper,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,30 Amps,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,200 Feet,,,,,,,,= 7.54 VD = 6.28%   

6 Gauge Copper,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,50 Amps,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,200 Feet,,,,,,,,= 7.9 VD = 6.58%

 If there are more RV's the VD is much greater,,,,,,,,If they draw more then 30 Amps, VD is much greater 

While THAT park may be wired with No 6 and No 8 iffffffffffffffff ??? for long runs and/or more then one RV,,,,,,,,,,,,,its NOTTTTTTTTTTT MY RECOMMENDATION nor believe most parks are wired that way

To each their own, I again support ones right to wire however they well please

Best wishes yall keep safe out there

John T

Edited January 6, 2021 by oldjohnt

[Jaydrvr]

15 hours ago, GlennWest said:

I was just talking to the park owner. Asked him about the wiring here. He has #8 up to 200' then #6 from there. States no problem the whole time here except for some aluminum he ran. Had to change it out. We are a good 200' from the service here on this site and no problems. There is #8 at my site. 124v at my pedestal. Just looked at it. He offered me free and pedestal for use at our land. Stated he had 5 extra and didn't need it. I said thank you. So that is what we are using in parks.

If you're getting 124v at your site, that simply means there's essentially no load on the system. Practically no one is using any juice. As soon as a significant load is applied, that voltage is going to plummet with that undersized wiring. Jay

[Darryl&Rita]

8 minutes ago, oldjohnt said:

o each their own, I again support ones right to wire however they well please

I agree, John. Made plenty of mortgage payments correcting installations done cheap. Go for it, Glenn.

[GlennWest]

52 minutes ago, Jaydrvr said:

If you're getting 124v at your site, that simply means there's essentially no load on the system. Practically no one is using any juice. As soon as a significant load is applied, that voltage is going to plummet with that undersized wiring. Jay

Yes, it was a beautiful day here yesterday. Most people just using vents for cooling and gas furnaces at night. I do remember seeing voltages in the summer at 109ish. Everything worked fine.

[oldjohnt]

44 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

I do remember seeing voltages in the summer at 109ish. Everything worked fine.

Maybe so ??? HOWEVER AC or other compressor equipment manufacturers (not talking resistive loads here) might well recommend higher then 109 Volts for long term operation ???? Check with them not me, for an AC or compressor fridge long term Id recommend at least 110 Volts. 

Again yall do as you like, its YOUR equipment to operate at lower then recommended voltage if you please. Some gents use a transformer type of device to boost low voltage if the parks voltage is less then recommended value.

John T

Edited January 6, 2021 by oldjohnt

[GlennWest]

I will run #1 copper. It checks out with less than 2% at 40 amps. I likely never go beyond that. Looks like 2.1% at 50 amps. Question, should all 4 lines be same size?

[oldjohnt]

1 minute ago, GlennWest said:

Question, should all 4 lines be same size?

Hey Glenn, good question.  Its been tooooooooo longgggggggg since I practiced but for sure BOTH L1 & L2 UnGrounDED (aka Hot or Line) Conductors as well as the GrounDED (aka Neutral) Conductor needs to be that size.

If its a true 120/240 Volt Single Phase Three Wire Service if BOTH L1 & L2 draw the same current NEUTRAL CURRENT IS ZERO !!!!!!!!!!!!

HOWEVER derating (smaller wire) of the Equipment GroundING Conductor can be okay.

 

John T

[GlennWest]

Looks like unless i order wire on line I will have to use #1/0. Lowes nor Home Depot carry #1. Will 1/0 even fit a 50 amp breaker?

Edited January 6, 2021 by GlennWest

[Darryl&Rita]

1 hour ago, GlennWest said:

Looks like unless i order wire on line I will have to use #1/0. Lowes nor Home Depot carry #1. Will 1/0 even fit a 50 amp breaker?

Electrical wholesalers. Better pricing than either Orange or Blue.

[GlennWest]

12 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

Electrical wholesalers. Better pricing than either Orange or Blue.

Thank you but can't access that website. Wants me to log in but no way to register

Edited January 6, 2021 by GlennWest

[Darryl&Rita]

56 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

Thank you but can't access that website. Wants me to log in but no way to register

Not a website, generic name for the wholesaler closest to you.

[GlennWest]

Do they even sell to the public. All I see listed listed is commercial, oil and gas industry. 

[Jaydrvr]

10 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

Do they even sell to the public. All I see listed listed is commercial, oil and gas industry. 

Call yourself a welding company. Make up your business name. Often that's all you need. Jay

[bigjim]

i don't know about all welding supply stores but I have bought as an individual in at least two  I have bought electrical supply stores as an individual also.  I have done the same at some other commercial retailer of different types and in some cases they may charge a slight  higher price. Sometimes they don't even ask if you say you are paying in cash.

[GlennWest]

Went to wireandcableyourway.com and they sell by foot for $1.67. Also i can get it different colors. Most of the wholesale i can access sell it by 1000 ft rolls. And it figures to same price also. 

[rpsinc]

I have bought those size wires in specific lengths for jobs.  Also have bought welding cable(totally different animal and priced accordingly but may be easier to work with in conduit) in specific lengths, at much cheaper than the local welding supply house, sometimes as much as 50% less per foot and many times free shipping.