Undertrucked?

[GlennWest]

I had a couple of brake failures with my HDT towing. Could barely tell it. Since going with Bludot air over hydraulic, if I have air, I have brake control. With no air I have full lockup. 

[noteven]

7 hours ago, noteven said:

When I bought a new truck camper a couple years ago I had to sign a waiver at the dealership that I would know and understand the weight of the camper I was buying and haul or tow with a vehicle of sufficient capacity. 

I thought to myself, "Self, so much for very popular 'blame the salesman' excuse..." 

 

 

5 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Interesting! Do you believe that the dealer would have refused the sale if you had said no to signing the document?

Has anyone else on the forum run across that requirement to buy?

Hi Kirk - I didn't ask what if I don't sign this.  In this part of Canada and probably the whole country you do not "get sold" anything in the eyes of the law you offer to purchase it, in writing. It is understood that if details such as weight and center of gravity are known by the buyer if the information is clearly visible and available and that they understood this information before offering to purchase. For example this camper's weight sheet is accurate, and clearly visible on a door inside. The C of G is placarded in red on both sides. 

Now, having said that, law governing vehicle dealers here does have a provision that makes the dealer liable for a verbal representation of condition or suitability for the purpose by the dealer or their employee.  This would be why this waiver was part of the paperwork. I would have to prove that it was never presented to me at any time and that I was totally deceived while having stars in my eyes all in love with that perfect camper I just had to have and they tricked me... 

I expect the salesperson would have just noted "customer read this document and refused to sign it" and put it in the file. 

 

 

 

[whj469]

Whomever told you that any 250/2500 would handle 3,450 lbs of pin weight was mistaken. 300 lbs of people and a fifth wheel hitch and that much pin weight will put you over weight.

[Jinx & Wayne]

9 hours ago, whj469 said:

Whomever told you that any 250/2500 would handle 3,450 lbs of pin weight was mistaken. 300 lbs of people and a fifth wheel hitch and that much pin weight will put you over weight.

I'm pretty sure that was my point.  I'm also pretty sure that neither salesperson never considered pin weight because they didn't understand it.  They didn't tell me directly that it would handle the pin weight of that trailer.  They said the truck would be "fine" for towing that trailer.  I don't think they lied.  I think they were stupid.  I don't think they ever looked at anything beyond 5th wheel towing capacity.

I'm pretty fussy about understanding what I am doing and why when I start on something new.  I knew nothing about RV's at the time.  That is why I did my own research and bought a F350 DRW diesel.  Even with a SRW 350 things were going to be close.  Jinx didn't want to drive anything as wide as a DRW so she lobbied for the SRW.  I suggested we would have to weigh her purse and count the water bottles with the SRW.  She agreed maybe the DRW was ok.  I've been very happy with the DRW.

Thank you for the 300# of people vote of confidence.  I haven't weighted 150# since I finished basic training.  Jinx isn't commenting.  And our dog at the time weighed 58#! 😃

[fpmtngal]

I spend quite a bit of time on a forum devoted to my particular TT’s manufacturer.   While many of the regulars there try to tell new people to check the payload rating for their trucks, too many of those new owners don’t want to hear it - they can’t fit a 3/4 ton truck in their garage and their wife won’t agree to a trailer small enough to be towed by a half-ton.  So they start off under-trucked.

Maybe it’s not as common with 5ers, but I often see overweight rigs with travel trailers.  It may be easier with a travel trailer to only see the tow rating of a vehicle and not pay attention to the TV’s payload and the trailer’s tongue weight.  Add to that the fact that many trailer manufacturer’s published dry tongue weight not only doesn’t include a trailer’s options but also doesn’t include batteries.

I now tow a small travel trailer (21’ overall, GVWR 5500 lbs, with a tongue weight between 700-750 lbs) with a big truck (SRW F350).  It’s my third TV - my needs have changed in the 5 years since I bought my little trailer (first RV).  I occasionally get some weird looks and comments in campgrounds, especially by those who have undersized rigs.  I just smile and think about the ease of towing and the fact that loaded up my truck doesn’t come close to it’s GVWR (unlike my F150 which was close to GVWR when I went to Alaska 2 years ago and then went over when I sold the house and became a full-timer).

[Jinx & Wayne]

10 hours ago, fpmtngal said:

they can’t fit a 3/4 ton truck in their garage

Hahahaha.  Yeah, When I bought the dually we were a year away from full timing.  The garage door was 4-1/2" wider than the truck. I lived in Maine and wasn't about to store a diesel outside in the winter.  After a month of squeezing it in successfully I had the door widened.  When we sold it the new owner had a dually.  He was very happy with that adjustment.  Unfortunately it didn't add to the selling price of the house.

10 hours ago, fpmtngal said:

Maybe it’s not as common with 5ers,

I think it is pretty common with 5ers.  Looking at some of the tow vehicles I've seen for TT's, it is probably pretty common there, too.

[Chalkie]

4 hours ago, Jinx & Wayne said:

I lived in Maine and wasn't about to store a diesel outside in the winter.

That is why diesels sold in "cold country" are equipped with block heaters. 😉

[Jinx & Wayne]

16 hours ago, Chalkie said:

That is why diesels sold in "cold country" are equipped with block heaters.

That helps as do anti-gel additives.  You still have to plug and unplug.  AND then, gas or diesel, you need to sweep off the truck every time it snows, and scrape it every time you have a hard frost.  Oh yeah, and Ford had a block heater recall that they were slow to get fixed.

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, Jinx & Wayne said:

That helps as do anti-gel additives.  You still have to plug and unplug.  

We owned both a diesel care and a diesel pickup while living in WY and the block heater is not a substitute for winterized fuel as they serve different purposes. The block heater makes it much easier to start and that is even true for gasoline engines to some degree. Since the diesel doesn't have spark plugs, very cold weather makes it much harder to get compression firing started. Back before multigrade engine oil was common, those heaters were also common for gasoline engines as the oil would get so stiff as to make starting impossible, even for gasoline engines. We used to run a lighter weight oil in winter than in summer.

The reason for winterized fuel is because diesel fuel will start to gel at about 15° F and when ambient temperatures are below 0°, winterized fuel become vital. When using winterized fuel, we never had any issues with either of our diesels even if the block heater was not plugged in, other than that they were a bit hard to start and would roll black smoke until up to temperature. Both of our small diesels at the time were 4 cylinder and had glow-plugs to preheat cylinder heads before starting.  

[durangodon]

5 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

 

15° F and when ambient temperatures are below 0°,

How do you make that little degree mark on a computer keyboard?

[Kirk W]

1 minute ago, durangodon said:

How do you make that little degree mark on a computer keyboard?

°   ¢   © and a huge number of others are all found on the Windows character map. Just open it and copy and paste the one that you want into your text. 

[durangodon]

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

°   ¢   © and a huge number of others are all found on the Windows character map. Just open it and copy and paste the one that you want into your text. 

Thanks.

 

What is a Windows character map?

[Chalkie]

3 hours ago, Jinx & Wayne said:

That helps as do anti-gel additives.  You still have to plug and unplug.

Both true. We lived 30 years in Colorado at a high enough elevation that we saw some "interesting" winter temps. I never found unplugging and plugging to be a big deal and always in the winter used the Diesel Kleen winter formula when I filled up. It was really added more for the cetane boost than anything as all the fuel we bought in winter was already blended so as not to gel. 

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

The reason for winterized fuel is because diesel fuel will start to gel at about 15° F and when ambient temperatures are below 0°, winterized fuel become vital. When using winterized fuel, we never had any issues with either of our diesels even if the block heater was not plugged in, 

I just always made sure that if we traveled to Texas in the winter visit our daughter I filled up  or at least topped up the tank as soon as we got to where winterized fuel was sold (or at least a blend for real cold). 

When we bought a truck that required DEF I did a little research because I wondered why the DEF tank had a heater and was it something that was a constant drain on the battery. The answer was no on the battery and even though DEF freezes at about 12° the heater can thaw a frozen tank in moments. 

[Chalkie]

6 minutes ago, durangodon said:

Thanks.

 

What is a Windows character map?

If you have Windows 10 - hit the Windows key then start to type Character and it will bring up Character Map then click the link to view. 

 

[durangodon]

59 minutes ago, Chalkie said:

If you have Windows 10 - hit the Windows key then start to type Character and it will bring up Character Map then click the link to view. 

 

Thanks.  I've never used the Windows key or the start menu before.  Pretty interesting stuff in the start menu.

[sandsys]

9 hours ago, durangodon said:

How do you make that little degree mark on a computer keyboard?

On my Mac it is shift option 8.

Linda

[GeoKat]

On 12/21/2020 at 4:05 AM, Jinx & Wayne said:

At the risk of opening a large can of worms, I would like to solicit opinions on an adequate truck for towing.

When we first began RVing a few years ago both the RV dealer and truck salesman assured us that a diesel F-250 with a 50 gal auxiliary fuel tank was more than adequate for towing a fiver with a GVW of 16,830#, and a loaded pin weight of 3450#.  Apparently they based that on the listed towing capacity of that vehicle.  After researching truck payloads and axle capacities we decided on a F-350 dually diesel,bought that fiver, and have been happy with the choice.  We SmartWeigh every year and are careful to stay within limits.  As i look around at RV/truck combo ads and folks in the parks around me I see people towing with all sorts of trucks that appear to be too little truck for the job - they appear to be undertrucked.  This leaves me with several questions.

Is this a real problem?  How common is undertrucking?  Is this primarily a safety issue or an equipment durability issue - is the likely bad result an accident or more repairs?  Do things like air bags remedy the problem?

Although I feel I have enough truck I welcome input from those of you in MDT's and HDT's, as well.

Just to stir the pot a bit more, my experience as a trial attorney tells me that a person towing with too little truck, and who is involved in a serious injury accident, may be looking at large civil liability (big lawsuit) and maybe criminal exposure.

Thoughts?

What's the axle ratio on the rig? The only way a 250 will work is if it's a 3.73 (and that's pushing it) or a 4.3. A 350 with a 3.73 axle ratio will work fine but a 4.3 is better.

[Jinx & Wayne]

58 minutes ago, GeoKat said:

What's the axle ratio on the rig? The only way a 250 will work is if it's a 3.73 (and that's pushing it) or a 4.3. A 350 with a 3.73 axle ratio will work fine but a 4.3 is better.

The 250 diesel wasn't going to work on that 5er regardless of axle ratio.  It isn't just about pulling/horizontal forces.  It is also about vertical forces on the structure of the vehicle and how that affects emergency handling.   For the 2017 250 2wd LB diesel, the net payload is 3,880.  Subtract 3450 pin weight (loaded), 300 for two people (we are heavier than 150 each so its more, but you are probably thinner), and 238 for 34 gal of diesel, 100 for the hitch.  At that point you are 208# over payload and we haven't counted the DW's purse, your gear, the dog and the two cups of coffee in the cup holders.  If you have anything else (maps, coolers, traffic emergency kit, lunch, windshield washer fluid, etc., all of that adds to the payload excess.  Something in the bed - add it in.  Problems with inadequate axle capacity are similar.  And that was for the lowest weight long bed.  If you go to 4WD or crew cab, things get even worse.  If you have the crew cab 4wd, that puts you another 650 overweight because the net payload is 3,280 plus another 98 or diesel for the 48 gal tank. That's right around half a ton beyond payload on a truck that only had a ton and a half to begin with.

I talked to a guy yesterday who upgraded from a 2500 to a 3500 dually on a 38' 5er.  His comment was that he no longer felt like the rv was driving him down the road.

Wayne & Jinx
2017 F-350 diesel, dually
2006 Carriage Carri-Lite 36KSQ

[Jinx & Wayne]

Oh yeah, and my sales people were saying it was OK with another 50 gal of diesel and tank - that 125 for the tank and 350 for the diesel.

[packnrat]

ok so all the talk about adding in weight,

how about some legal ways to reduce the weight of the truck. there has to be some out there.

 

yes i understand removing weight is going to co$t.

Edited January 9, 2021 by packnrat

[Jinx & Wayne]

6 hours ago, packnrat said:

ok so all the talk about adding in weight,

how about some legal ways to reduce the weight of the truck. there has to be some out there.

The vehicles with the most capacity are those with the fewest add-ons.  4ED, diesel, extended cabs, longer beds, larger fuel tanks and accessories like better seats all add weight.  You don't remove weight unless you remove excess things from the truck.  Removing or drilling holes in essential things is not a good idea.  Maybe you could remove the bed if the 5er if you could be mount the hitch straight to the frame.  The louvered tailgates I've seen would reduce weight.  Maybe a gooseneck instead of a 5th wheel hitch would weight.  Taking out seats and upholstery might work.  Lose the sound system, GPS and any other accessories.  Things that you carry in the truck can go in the trailer where they will only add about 20-25% to hitch weight/payload reduction instead of 100%.  Oh yeah, since it's the new year, a diet and losing weight will help if you are in my BMI category. 😉  Airbags do nothing to increase axle capacity; I don't believe they increase payload, either.

Realistically, buying a bigger truck is probably the cheaper road, plus you get a few conveniences that make riding in the truck for a day or two much more comfortable.  I like my 10-position heated/cooled seats and good sound system.  Putting on heftier axles and  beefing up suspension during assembly is probably cheaper than after-market.  The 2021 Ford price point for a bare bones, gas engine 250 LB is about 4$k less than a 350 DRW gas LB - $35k versus $39K.  Special towing packages, interior upgrades and diesel cost extra in either configuration. 

All of it is cheaper than an emergency resulting in an accident.  And I will tell you that towing with the right truck is a joy.  I have a 350 diesel dually.  If I had it to do over again I would get the 450 diesel dually.

[packnrat]

 only have a F250 4X4, buying another new truck is out of my $$ range.

yes i understand removing "stuff" lowers the weight of the truck, was just asking what if anything others have done for this.

yes i have thought about removing the bed, but the state of ca says i must stop at a scale if not a factory body bed on the truck. (all pu trucks in ca are registered as commercial trucks, weight tax and all). so it will cost me to alter the bed body. hope to remove up to a couple hundred pounds, but going to cost me big $$ to do so.

a F450 would be great, not much better towing than a 350, but you get a much better (tighter) turning.

maybe i can sell the tail gate?

[sandsys]

3 hours ago, packnrat said:

maybe i can sell the tail gate?

That might affect your fuel mileage. Those air gates do that because with a tailgate in place the air flows over the top of the bed which doesn't happen without a tail gate.

Linda

[packnrat]

that is true. but if i have the bed “adjusted. the factory tail gate will not fit any longer

[Jinx & Wayne]

On 1/9/2021 at 12:13 AM, packnrat said:

how about some legal ways to reduce the weight of the truck.

The other alternative is to reduce the weight of the RV in a manner that reduces the pin weight.  I've not tried that avenue because we are within limits on our rig, and I am not sure just how to go about it other than:  1.  Reducing the things you carry; 2.  moving things to the rear;  or 3. removing things.  Remember, however, that moving things backwards shifts the weight to the trailer axles.  Stock trailer axles are notoriously low capacity compared to the overall weight of the trailer.  When I bought my older 5er it came with two, 7000# axles - 14,000# for a vehicle with a GVW of 16,830#!  (When I upgraded to electric over hydraulic disc brakes those axles would not work so I installed two, 8000# axles.)

We got rid of the washer/dryer but didn't save any weight there because we converted that closet to Jinx's sewing closet - two machines, tools, fabric and who knows what else.

Wayne & Jinx
2017 F-350 diesel, dually
2006 Carriage Carri-Lite 36KSQ