Fuel treatment products?

[JimK]

After my previous and some additional research, I feel very confident.  Any biological activity requires the presence of water and the activity takes place at the water fuel interface, consuming some of the diesel and potentially developing residue.  Ram/Cummins have done about all that is possible to alert the driver to the presence of water and the need to empty the water from the filter.  There are two filters and two sensors on the current models.  My 2010 had a single filter and sensor, but with 80K miles I never had an issue.

[sandsys]

8 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Biocide was exactly what I was wondering about. If you use it and any brand preference, since I see that as an additive.

We made it a point to take our diesels out and run them (and the generator when we had one) at least once a month so didn't feel the need for additives. Not doing any additives might not have been a good policy but that's what we did.

Linda

[JimK]

1 hour ago, sandsys said:

We made it a point to take our diesels out and run them (and the generator when we had one) at least once a month so didn't feel the need for additives. Not doing any additives might not have been a good policy but that's what we did.

Linda

I have been running  my truck until it is warm at least once a month.  When the weather was really bad, I just let it idle for about 30 minutes to warm up.  Otherwise I drive it 10 or 20 miles, sometimes more.  Even so it takes a long time to run through a tank of fuel.   For all of 2019 I only ran through a tank of fuel.  This year I have done better with several fill ups.  In two years I didn't come even close to running through a tank of DEF.  That takes about 5000 miles for a full tank.  

[sandsys]

1 hour ago, JimK said:

I have been running  my truck until it is warm at least once a month.  When the weather was really bad, I just let it idle for about 30 minutes to warm up.  Otherwise I drive it 10 or 20 miles, sometimes more.  Even so it takes a long time to run through a tank of fuel.   For all of 2019 I only ran through a tank of fuel.  This year I have done better with several fill ups.  In two years I didn't come even close to running through a tank of DEF.  That takes about 5000 miles for a full tank.  

Your tanks must be substantially larger than mine. 26.2 gallons of fuel and one bottle of DEF from Walmart (I think 2.5 gallons) was all my van would hold. So, mine didn't last nearly as long as yours. I went through about half a tank of fuel every driving day when traveling and had to fill DEF a couple times a year even though I was only traveling half a year at that time. As in most things on this forum this answer is, "It depends!"  

Linda

[Ray,IN]

3 hours ago, JimK said:

I have been running  my truck until it is warm at least once a month.  When the weather was really bad, I just let it idle for about 30 minutes to warm up.  Otherwise I drive it 10 or 20 miles, sometimes more.  Even so it takes a long time to run through a tank of fuel.   For all of 2019 I only ran through a tank of fuel.  This year I have done better with several fill ups.  In two years I didn't come even close to running through a tank of DEF.  That takes about 5000 miles for a full tank.  

A diesel engine will never reach normal operating temperature at low idle. It is in fact harder on the engine than not starting it at all. The oil never gets hot enough to vaporize any crankcase moisture. Cummins has addressed this question many times.

[RV_]

On 9/21/2020 at 4:49 PM, DanZemke said:

Derek,

It doesn't appear to me that we have a have a substantive disagreement here.  

Suggestion. Let's move on.

Best wishes to you.

Dan

Dan, No problem. We all get ina hurry sometimes. And with Covid 19 and that stress among others easy to do. No harm no foul bud.

[RV_]

Kirk,

Like when you help with a water heater or reefer we first need to know the make and model. Exactly what year Ram do you have?

Do you drive it at all or what do you consider not run a lot? does it sit for a month? a year? Or do you drive it weekly or monthly until it reached operating temps?

Like online help with anything knowing the model makes all the difference. Biocide shouldn't hurt older 5.9 diesels prior to 2008. It can hurt newer systems

"My truck sits for long periods of time in between trailer trips, so I bought some Racor Biocide to treat the fuel while sitting. Read the fine print on the back of the bottle:

"This diesel fuel additive does not comply with federal ultra-low sulphur content requirements for use in model 2007 and newer diesel motor vehicle or model 2011 and newer diesel non-road equipment engines.

So it implies it could be wreaking havoc with the DPF system. I have not used mine and bought Power Service Products BioKleen Diesel Fuel Biocide instead which is compatible with ULSD engines."

Source The Diesel Stop: https://www.thedieselstop.com/threads/caution-on-using-racor-biocide-in-6-4l-diesel.263978/

 

More about Rams on the Ram Forum. Go here and pick your years forums and search there too. https://www.ramforum.com/

 

I gave a link for Power Service Biocide earlier in this thread if you want to use it. I know you have a Ram diesel but again you keep missing telling us what year Ram?

My 1992 12 valve  had a water fuel separator clear bowl and it was designed to catch most of the water, if any, and could be drained from the bottom. It also had a lever to prime the system if you had run it out of fuel. I really liked that design but lots of folks must not do maintenance because they are continually automating it.automating it. I would have made my Ram last forever (they will!) if we hadn't come off the road and now moved to town.

I ran my 2002 out of fuel and it took forever to get it running again as it had no priming lever on a visible separator bowl. Big difference in the years of the Rams.

but you can use a biocide in an older 5.9 and be fairly safe as I saw no warnings as they have on the later models. But do some searches in the Ram forums and others.

Edited September 23, 2020 by RV_

[JimK]

2 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

A diesel engine will never reach normal operating temperature at low idle. It is in fact harder on the engine than not starting it at all. The oil never gets hot enough to vaporize any crankcase moisture. Cummins has addressed this question many times.

Mine reaches operating temperature in about 20-30 minutes.  By about that time the moisture also stops dripping out of the exhaust.

[Kirk W]

9 hours ago, RV_ said:

Like online help with anything knowing the model makes all the difference.

2003, Dodge/Cummins 2500 Turbo-Diesel       I drive it at least once a month for long enough to get it into the normal run temperatures, usually for 20 to 30 miles. I am well aware of the issues of starting an engine and just letting it idle. But the truck has a 35 gallon tank so fuel can get pretty old before it is all gone. I keep the fuel tank full when stored, as I have with all of my vehicles for many years. 

 

[noteven]

Kirk - I would throw some Cummins approved algaecide in the fuel and otherwise do what you are doing - take it for a spin and get it right up to temperature once in a while or

do what we do in Canada - disconnect the batteries and park them at -20F below in a snow bank - machines keep indefinitely in the freezer. 

They algae don't like it either.

[RV_]

Yep, Kirk, that's what we started doing after I fixed the leaking main seal on my 1 ton while driving the 2002 until it sold. It sounds like you've all the bases covered.

Remember we came off the road after seven years full-time and that truck had an estimated 700k miles by my mechanic who replaced the seal and later bought it. He'd never seen an "uncoked" diesel because of folks idling for A/C in hot humid summers there. The 12 valve was a hard engine to beat giving it minimal maintenance according to manufacturer.

If you really want a lifetime truck you might want to get an upgrade lift pump for that truck. Too many of the Dodge Ram stock lift pumps fail and starve the injector pump causing it to fail. about $300.00 insurance for a problem many of us paid for fixing.

If you don't use it already go online to Turbodeisel Registry for your engine, and the other forums. For $250-450 you can really improve the water separating, filtering and pump reliability with a performance after market lift/fuel pump. The injector pump replacement stock can cost with labor can cost $2k-$5k and more depending on whether you need injectors and a lift pump.

That is just my opinion after owning that generation Ram Diesel. The biocide is a good idea. Buying used it took an initial cleaning of the oil pan and several oil changes to start seeing good oil on the stick at 6k miles before the next oil change. Just don't panic if you get a clogged filter. Have a replacement fuel filter ready when you start using the biocide as if there are any chunky colonies it can actually cause some gunk to flow. So could PS Diesel Kleen. That is not a caution against biocide just something to tuck away and not panic if it happens. I pretty much used only PS Diesel Kleen, and would have no problem with adding a biocide. I've never owned a diesel in cold country and RVing was in our LA winter quarters for the cold months.

Good luck with that truck Kirk, you have a good Cummins system there and you take care of equipment so it should be your last truck unless you just want newer. Me, I would stay with the pre-DEF 2005/6/7 5.9 were I to need another truck.

Kirk some others may not have known about idling coking diesels unless they are throttle controlled at a higher idle, but a diedel really needs a load to warm up after the oil pressure is up on start. My 30 second to one minute starting idle was just to be sure the oil was circulating throuout the engine.

Our five acres when we had the trucks in LA was exactly 1.8 miles at 35 mph to the main road and 55mph. Mine would be warmed up and the needle almost into the operating temp by the time I was at the main road in all but sub-freezing weather and within another mile in those temps.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/5-9l-engine-and-transmissions-2003-2007.127/

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cost+to+replace+a+2003+Ram+5.9+diesel+injector+pump&docid=607990957878086310&mid=5E7CA54AA73E37A6819F5E7CA54AA73E37A6819F&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

YMMV

Edited September 23, 2020 by RV_

[JimK]

There seems to be quite a bit of variation in our experiences.  Kirk finds that it takes 20-30 miles of driving to get to operating temperature.    "RV" finds his diesel makes it almost to operating temp in 1.8 miles at 35 mph.  I drove a couple of miles yesterday and the temp gauge showed operating temp and I watched as the thermostat opened and the coolant temp dropped a couple of degrees.  

Idling is a poor way to warm the engine and again it takes 20-30 minutes to achieve what happens in a couple of miles of even low speed driving.  I only warm up with idling or low speed driving  when there is not much other choice do to snow and bad weather.  Too much idling can also induce a regen and it that does not happen then you will get a check engine warning.  At least that is what happened with my 2010 diesel when I did a lot of low speed driving.

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, JimK said:

Kirk finds that it takes 20-30 miles of driving to get to operating temperature. 

I didn't intend to imply that it takes that long to come up to temperature, only that I  normally drive that far each time I start up for exercise. The distance to normal engine temperature is typically 1 to 3 miles, depending on ambient temperature when we start. Years ago, a Ford engineer told me that you should drive an engine long enough to completely warm everything and also long enough to drive off any accumulated moisture from the engine, transmission, alternator, etc and that he considered that to be at least 15 miles after reaching normal engine temperature. Since we have a son who is 13 miles away, I often just drive there and then back home, with brief stop but not long enough for things to cool off. 

Adding, I never have believed in long idle times for any engine. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Kirk W

[rickeieio]

Just something to think about.......  Some of you have mentioned the water trap on the Ram and how well it works.  That's all fine and dandy, but the issue is the water in the tank, not the filter.  The pick-up does not draw off the very bottom, so it never sucks up all the water that may be hanging out, just waiting to host a microbe or 3.  So, a little bio-diesel once in a while to absorb the water can be a good thing.  If you're concerned about water, there are additives to suspend that too.  But diesel fuel is a little like Prego.  It's in there.

As mentioned previously, YMMV.

[RV_]

Guys,

Biocides are not needed every time. Bio Kleen by Power Service works in water and diesel fuel. This is an important thing because if the biocide is lighter than water like Diesewl is, then you aren't treating the problem.

Rather than give my preference based on just my experience go the this PS link and read about their dual water/diesel biocide. But don't stop there, keep scrolling down that page and you will see all their products, which does what, and their recommendations about intervals.

https://powerservice.com/psp_product/bio-kleen-diesel-fuel-biocide/

Kirk I read it as you meant. JimK goes on to talk about in snow etc. In addition to what make and model Jim the place one drives makes all the difference.

Kirk is in Texas just South of I-20 between Shreveport and Dallas. I just moved from just 10 miles east of Bossier City LA just off I-20. While it does get below freezing that's only for a few days each winter, snow is relatively rare and the one day every few years it does it melts and does not stick or stick for long. Down there Ice on bridges is the problem.

I my 2004.5 2500 Ram set for the 80/90 degree temps in May in Louisiana. It was a 2004.5 Ram/long bed/auto/first of the common rail quiet diesels. We moved to Colorado last May and I hauled a big Uhaul trailer up to here with all the liquids and flammables they would not move and we got here 19 May with the Ram and my wife followed in the Subaru Baja. The plan was for me to stay long enough to get the shipment the following Monday, help get the boxes in the right rooms and a week later drive back in time to cut the grass in LA. So we bought a couple of air mattresses and went to bed. The next day was my wife's birthday and we were greeted by a foot of snow, 12-16 inches fell in the night. But the snow was gone in 48 hours, and temps warmer the next day.  I sold it last September 2019 there in LA because it was rear wheel drive not 4WD or AWD. I'm from everywhere as is my spousal unit. Our dads were USAF and she served as my dear wife for our 27 year career. I spent most of my youth from age 7-18 in Stamford Connecticut. We lived in Germany on assignment for 7 years. So we have driven in snow country most of our lives.

So when advising about additives oils and anti freeze geographic l0ocation is very important too.

Edited September 24, 2020 by RV_

[Ray,IN]

20 hours ago, JimK said:

Mine reaches operating temperature in about 20-30 minutes.  By about that time the moisture also stops dripping out of the exhaust.

Nope, that is why Cummins developed the high-idle feature: https://mopar1973man.com/cummins/articles.html/24-valve-2nd-generation_50/51_engine/high-idle-switch/tsb-18-019-01-cold-idle-engine-warming-high-idle-enable-r421/

[JimK]

26 minutes ago, Ray,IN said:

Nope, that is why Cummins developed the high-idle feature: https://mopar1973man.com/cummins/articles.html/24-valve-2nd-generation_50/51_engine/high-idle-switch/tsb-18-019-01-cold-idle-engine-warming-high-idle-enable-r421/

Maybe you have some other criterion.  I consider the engine warmed up when it reaches operating temp, the thermostat opens, then the temp drops a few degrees and then returns to normal operating temp in a few more minutes.  Again that is 20 to 30 minutes depending on ambient temps.  Yes Dodge does have a higher than normal idle speed when warming.  

[Ray,IN]

4 minutes ago, JimK said:

Maybe you have some other criterion.  I consider the engine warmed up when it reaches operating temp, the thermostat opens, then the temp drops a few degrees and then returns to normal operating temp in a few more minutes.  Again that is 20 to 30 minutes depending on ambient temps.  Yes Dodge does have a higher than normal idle speed when warming.  

You must have forgotten what I originally said "at low idle", that is true according to Cummins.

[JimK]

4 hours ago, Kirk W said:

I didn't intend to imply that it takes that long to come up to temperature, only that I  normally drive that far each time I start up for exercise. The distance to normal engine temperature is typically 1 to 3 miles, depending on ambient temperature when we start. Years ago, a Ford engineer told me that you should drive an engine long enough to completely warm everything and also long enough to drive off any accumulated moisture from the engine, transmission, alternator, etc and that he considered that to be at least 15 miles after reaching normal engine temperature. Since we have a son who is 13 miles away, I often just drive there and then back home, with brief stop but not long enough for things to cool off. 

Adding, I never have believed in long idle times for any engine. 

OK, I understand and except for the few times weather gets in the way, I typically drive about 15-20 miles for a good warm up of the engine, transmission and to help keep the battery charged.  I avoid short trips.

[JimK]

3 minutes ago, Ray,IN said:

You must have forgotten what I originally said "at low idle", that is true according to Cummins.

It is not possible to keep the idle low as long as the engine is cold.  I can tap the accelerator which will drop the idle but if the engine is cold it will go back to a higher idle pretty quickly.

[RV_]

1 minute ago, JimK said:

It is not possible to keep the idle low as long as the engine is cold.  I can tap the accelerator which will drop the idle but if the engine is cold it will go back to a higher idle pretty quickly.

On what year truck Jim?

[JimK]

1 minute ago, RV_ said:

On what year truck Jim?

My 2010 was that way and so is my 2018.  There does seem to be a difference however.  The high idle for the 2018 seems minimal.  The 2010 rev'd up pretty high when it was cold.  Lots changed between 2010 and 2018.  2010 was the last year with minimal emissions controls and no DEF.  The fuel mileage was also much lower for the 2010.  

[Pappy Yokum]

Google:  "Lubricity Additives Results" - a *blind*  study  by The Diesel Place (A GMC / Chevy diesel forum).  Besides lubricity, other factors (cetaine boost, etc.)  are noted, as well as cost. Note: Study done in 2007.

See the methodology and scroll down to results with  "pecking order" and info for each.

Suggestion: Go to one of the diesel forums for your respective brand and model year.  Bound to be lots of discussion/s. Also see mfgr's recommendations for your brand/year.

I did use Power Service "Diesel Kleen" - but have since switched to Opti-Lube XPD.  Maybe it/they help, maybe not. (2005 RAM). Figure - can't hurt.

Common knowledge:  For a vehicle that isn't driven frequently, a full tank is better than half (or less).

Change fuel filter regularly.

.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Pappy Yokum

[RV_]

Yep, apples and oranges between the 2010 Rams and the 5.9 12 valve 3500 and 24 valve 2500 Ram Diesels I owned. NO idle throttle control on any of mine. all had the lift pumps as the weak points, and like now all had aftermarket fixes for everything if you had a lot of discretionary funds.I heard there was one if you turned the key a number of times but I never saw it on mine. The 2006 may have had it but the short bed rode so rough that it was like my dually off load so I got rid of it withing six months. Took a year to find the 2004.6 with common rail, a long bed, and an automatic in a 2500 Ram. For me the 2004.5-2007 5.9 were the pinnacle of Cummins diesels. Good discussion guys.

[justRich]

I always fill my tractor fuel tank to the top before heading south for six months.
Been doing this to eliminate space in the tank which would contain air and moisture.

I've had the tractor for twenty years - nine years of which it's abandoned during winter.
No additives ever and no problems so far. .