1st trip with new truck.

[Steve from SoCal]

I get the same number Rick got and Bob noted the trailer at 13800 is perhaps the rear axle rating and NOT the max gross weight of the trailer?     That sounds very light as a gross weight on a 5th wheel toy hauler?   

 

Steve

[rickeieio]

Steve, I had the same thought, and so tried to find the specs for that trailer.  I didn't come up with anything to suggest that Bob was wrong on the 13,800.  Ours has a gross rating of 21,000, but it's a little longer and 3 axles.

[Steve from SoCal]

16 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Steve, I had the same thought, and so tried to find the specs for that trailer.  I didn't come up with anything to suggest that Bob was wrong on the 13,800.  Ours has a gross rating of 21,000, but it's a little longer and 3 axles.

You are correct,

 

The KZ website lists the gross weight of their biggest toyhaulers at 13995

 

 

[noteven]

Yes you add pin weight plus axle weights = gross trailer weight.

[usbusin]

He also unloaded the front axle by about 800 lb.  So is that not to be included in the trailer weight?  Isn't that part of the tractor weight?

[Cotreker]

Rick, since I have not yet purchased a Toy Hauler 5er I want to learn how to make sure not to over load in the future.  Any chance you can do a spreed sheet?

If GVRW of trailer is : 13,600

and Trailer current weight is 11,800

Then: 1,800 available for trailer items.  Maybe I am missing something else, is it that a truck axle is over the limit?

Dennis

[mptjelgin]

The very simplest way to determine the trailer weight (without worrying about distribution to the axles) is to subtract the Total Truck Weight without the trailer (19240 pounds) from the total weight of the truck plus the trailer (34020 pounds).  That comes out to 14,780 pound for the trailer. 

You know that 11,800 pounds of that is sitting on the trailer axles, so the pin is 2980 pounds.  From the measurements that pin added 3760 pounds to the rear axles, and unloaded the fronts by 780 pounds.  So the pin weight being applied to the hitch is still "only" 2980 pounds, but the fact that the hitch is located behind the rear axle is the reason for the lever arm effect of adding more weight to the rear while unloading the front. 

Cotreker - Important to note that the weight of a fifth wheel is the axle weight plus the pin weight, so that is where the overload is coming from. This trailer is carrying about 20% of its total weight on the pin, which is on the lighter end of the "normal" range of 20 - 25%. 

 

[Cotreker]

Thank you, so he really is over weight?

[rickeieio]

Unfortunately, yes.

[geodog]

AN overweight trailer can have five (5) effects:

1 Bent axle

2 Broken springs

3 Excessive wear on the sprong shackles

4 Broken spring hangers

5 Blown out  tires

 

My trailer was overloaded on one axle by less than 800 pounds and I experienced all five before installing heavier Mor-Ryde suspension.

 

 

ShortyO

[trimster]

I do appreciate all the input. This has been a goodly bit of information. Here's what's on the trailer weight information sticker in the cabinet:

GVWR...13340

UVW.... 10100

water weight (55gal or half full of fresh, other tanks empty).....457

LP gas weight (6.4 gal or only one of 2 tanks) 60 lbs

CCC for this trailer.... 2723 lbs

So, with the information we now have on how to calculate the current loading.... if you fill the fresh tank, load some food and belongings, have 2 batteries in the battery bank, you can't put much more than a dirt bike and a few cases of beer in the back. This is not a toyhauler. It looks like one, but not the real deal. 

I've blown tires. Mostly my bad. Either old or under rated. Now have much higher rated tires and they are doing great. I guess the weak link now will be the axles. I'm going to guess they are 7000 pound rated. I'll look and see if they have any markings or stamping on them.

Could replace them. Or we could replace everything from the tires up....or build the bed on the truck and move the Goldwing to the truck. Maybe the third option is the best overall.

Bob

Edited September 24, 2020 by trimster

[Cotreker]

In conclusion one must purchase a really large 45 foot Toy Hauler in order to pull lots of toys and stuff around the country.  Thanks for helping me understand some of the math.....

[rickeieio]

 It would be interesting to know how most toy haulers are used.  I would think a lot of them are really bunk houses with room for bicycles, kayaks, etc.  The KZ described above would be more than ample used as such.

Before we bought ours, I asked this forum for recommendations for something used, but solid.  Not long on frills.  Winners were the Newmar X-Aire and Carriage C-Force.  I searched high and low but found one.  Cargo capacity is just short of 7,000#.  There was a 38' X-Aire offered, with three slides, or the 41' with two slides.

[hatrack]

I built a spreadsheet to do the math if you put in the numbers from the scale ticket. Some of you guys that know the number better may want to check the formula's as this is the first time I did this. The link below goes to the shared google drive where the file is stored. I also have on there that I have been playing with to figure hitch position and total length.

 

Truck and Trailer Weight

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by hatrack

[Nwcid]

On 9/24/2020 at 4:54 PM, Cotreker said:

In conclusion one must purchase a really large 45 foot Toy Hauler in order to pull lots of toys and stuff around the country.  Thanks for helping me understand some of the math.....

That is not true either.  You need to look at the sticker and the build to determine what you can carry.  

My last trailer was only 36' but it had a 3 x 6000 lb axles on it.  So before even considering pin weight that is 18,000 lbs on the axles.  Since it was not a "toy hauler" it only weighed about 10k so I had 8k available for loading.  

Many of the toy haulers have 3 x 7000 lb axles for a total of 21,000 lbs on the axels, again not considering pin weight.  However most of the manufactures list them as 20,000 lb units.  These units will have built in generators, 3 AC, full size appliances and weigh in around 16,000 lbs leaving 4000 lbs for everything else.  While that sounds like a lot, and it is, it disappears quickly.  Most hold at least 120 gallons of water, or 1000 lbs.  60 gallons of fuel.  Add a 1200 lb UTV, some normal household items and you are full. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Nwcid

[rickeieio]

4 hours ago, Nwcid said:

My last trailer was only 36' but it had a 3 x 6000 lb axels on it.  So before even considering pin weight that is 18,000 lbs on the axels.  Since it was not a "toy hauler" it only weighed about 10k so I had 8k available for loading.  

Perhaps you should consider more than just axle  (not axel) ratings to arrive at capacity. Frame, tires, brakes, hitch, etc all factor in to the final number, which, btw, is determined by the lowest rating of any of the components.

[Nwcid]

58 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Perhaps you should consider more than just axle  (not axel) ratings to arrive at capacity. Frame, tires, brakes, hitch, etc all factor in to the final number, which, btw, is determined by the lowest rating of any of the components.

Sorry for the typo, I will correct it.

I agree you need to go by more than just axles.  The sticker on the side of the trailer is what the manufacture rated it for and that is what you should go by.  That was the very first line in my post.  I was just giving examples.

In my case on my current trailer, using even numbers, it is rated at 17,000 lbs even though I only have dual 7,000 lb axles.  This manufacturer includes 3000 lb of pin weight to get the GVWR.  The unit weighs in at just under 13,000 lbs meaning I have 4000 of payload and even at that it is easy to overload. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Nwcid

[trimster]

So, for the rest of our trip we travel with tanks empty. DW pointed out that if we drink more wine, we will reduce the weight in the trailer. Can't argue with that. Maybe box wine is lighter. 😜

The plan is to build the bed on the truck and put the bike on that. We'll use the toyhauler garage space for other things/activities. I've got hobbies.....

Off to the mountains east of Taos Monday...for a week. 

Great conversation here. Really appreciate it. This towing stuff is not un-complicated to say the least.

Bob & Lisa

Edited September 26, 2020 by trimster

[noteven]

My old Carriage C-Force is 39ft, 3 x 7K axles, 11ft garage, 18,000 GVWR.

I think the 3x7000  axles are carrying around 14,000-14,500lbs at gross - nice % of capacity to spare. 

I think it is 14,000ish tare weight.

It is showing it’s time in the Southwest sunshine exterior appearance wise but the interior has stood up really well. Impressing people I don’t even know is way down the old priority list annyways.

It has room for lots of “stuff”.

[rickeieio]

Our X-Aire (2008 model) is 41', 3x7,000 axles, 14' garage and 21,000 gvwr.  Axle weight, loaded, is about the same as noteven's. Tare is a little more, can't remember for sure.

Ours is painted, but only the graphics are paint.  The white gel coat is chalking a bit.  Interior is.....dated.  But it's a solid old piece and works for us.  Best part is that by buying an older unit, it came without a payment book.  More money for fuel, campground fees, motorcycle tires, and cigars.

[rpsinc]

1 hour ago, rickeieio said:

Our X-Aire (2008 model) is 41', 3x7,000 axles, 14' garage and 21,000 gvwr.  Axle weight, loaded, is about the same as noteven's. Tare is a little more, can't remember for sure.

Ours is painted, but only the graphics are paint.  The white gel coat is chalking a bit.  Interior is.....dated.  But it's a solid old piece and works for us.  Best part is that by buying an older unit, it came without a payment book.  More money for fuel, campground fees, motorcycle tires, and cigars.

I had an Alfa that was chalking a bit.  Did the typical buff and polish, etc., then tried Poli-Glo.  Smelled just like Johnson floor wax.  Applied as instructed but not aware of how it held up long term as we sold the rig less than a year later.  The short term was amazing.  And we intended on putting on some vinyl decals if we decided that the all white was too much.

[noteven]

One should check into these new consumer grade “ceramic” coating systems maybe?

My trailer will be a museum piece before I get all the damn sun busted vinyl decals off it...

[rpsinc]

Just now, noteven said:

One should check into these new consumer grade “ceramic” coating systems maybe?

My trailer will be a museum piece before I get all the damn sun busted vinyl decals off it...

Good idea to try ceramic.  I removed the decals from the Alfa.  Tried lots of things, best was heat gun with plastic razor blades and the drill mounted erasers for some of the more stubborn places.  Then cleaned the glue with Xylene, did not do much damage to the trailer compared to other solvents.  Did not try WD40, but some say it works well.

[trimster]

I buffed the trailer with McGuire's De-ox. Then medium grade McGuire's polish. Then cleaned the surface with 50/50 water & alchohol. Then 2 coats of turtlewax ceramic spray. Holding up extremely well. 

[trimster]

Bit of a long day drive today from Gunnison, Colorado to the mountains above Taos, NM. Spent an hour is road construction, one-lane nightmare.

Pulled the Monarch Pass (11000') in 10th without breaking a sweat. Nice! 

Having been in and out of northern New Mexico several times... that sign that says 'welcome to New Mexico'... should have '..and roads that suck start here'  added to the sign.

Getting ready to pull the trigger on the Mor/Ryde suspension stuff for the trailer.

So this is our digs for the next week....

So far nothing is breaking, falling off, or otherwise not working on the truck. We have exercised the full range of the air ride seats. Nice to have them.

Bob and Lisa