Comfort Ride hitch issues

[GeorgiaHybrid]

noteven,

Here is where it gets hard and you need to look at a LOT of factors. During braking, unless the truck is doing all of the braking or the trailer is doing all of the braking, you will have a shared braking force and the differential between them will be the force transferred thru the hitch. You also have chucking, uneven braking, slip resistance on the tires (did anything lock up?), delay in brake application on the trailer, brake fade on both units and a MULTIUDE of other issues to consider.

In other words, there is not a simple "the hitch failed due to this" answer at this point. Looking at a photo can't tell you the type of the steel involved (more than likely A36 or A572-50), weld procedures used, weld wire used, design calculations and assumptions used during product development, welder qualifications, weld test procedures or anything else other than the fact "it failed".

[Parrformance]

...and where was your Mother-in-Law loaded?  In the truck or in the trailer?

[GlennWest]

Not appreciated

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by GlennWest

[Hewhoknowslittle]

Well this might get me banned from here but,

When did this happen? On the way to the rally????

Who fixed the problem and why don't you post pictures of this???

Yes I know more than I am asking, so fess up and tell the total story, or get off your high horse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Roger
 

[Hewhoknowslittle]

And how did you get your camper to the rally??????

Yes I know how, just be honest and tell the complete story, or shut your lying mouth.

This pisses me off, tell the complete story or don't tell it at all!!!!!

 

Roger

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Hewhoknowslittle

[Hewhoknowslittle]

3 hours ago, GlennWest said:

I would just scrap it and get an ET Hitch. You were fortunate you didn't destroy your camper. Or worse in a panick stop go into the truck.

 

Says the guy that drive with out any air pressure on the highway to leave a bad place, but who cares we are on the road, just look out for us that have no air pressure to keep going!

[GlennWest]

not appreciated

Edited October 1, 2020 by GlennWest

[mr. cob]

Howdy All,

Come on fellows, we all have opinions that can be shared, lets try to be better then our damned politicians and do so in a respectful manner.  Thanks.

Dave

[Chuck]

Wow, if you want answers to your questions, just go to the original posting by me. This is about putting out information on the hitch issue and what was determined by Rick the original owner of comfort ride. The information deserves to be out there so hitch owners can take precaution. Nothing more. Lighten up.! 

[Jim & Wilma]

My thoughts up to this point:

First, I want to say that I, and most folks on this forum, appreciate learning of hitch anomalies. I also appreciate a thoughtful discussion. 

Second, David made clear there are many factors that may have contributed to this failure. It’s premature to conclude the primary root cause and final corrective actions.

Third, I believe it’s reasonable conclude that a hitch failure of this type could result in catastrophic consequences.

Fourth, if I owned a hitch with this configuration:

• I would inspect the hitch prior to each drive with emphasis on indicators related to these known anomalies
• I would contact the manufacturer requesting any advisories concerning my hitch

[SuiteSuccess]

10 hours ago, Jim & Wilma said:

My thoughts up to this point:

First, I want to say that I, and most folks on this forum, appreciate learning of hitch anomalies. I also appreciate a thoughtful discussion. 

Second, David made clear there are many factors that may have contributed to this failure. It’s premature to conclude the primary root cause and final corrective actions.

Third, I believe it’s reasonable conclude that a hitch failure of this type could result in catastrophic consequences.

Fourth, if I owned a hitch with this configuration:

• I would inspect the hitch prior to each drive with emphasis on indicators related to these known anomalies
• I would contact the manufacturer requesting any advisories concerning my hitch

Jim,

Good points.  My concern always has been with your third point.  I know of other failures not just Comfort Ride that could have resulted in worse consequences than they did.  When issues arise, I also feel the manufacturer has a responsibility to inform the owners (if not original they can forward) AND offer solutions, inspections, and/or fixes of the issue.  A final question in my mind that maybe someone can answer.  Do incidents like this require a report to any Federal agency such as NTSB?  Or is there any regulations governing the equipment?  The reason I ask is when Kodiak had an issue with their brake calipers coming loose creating a safety issue, it was reported to National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and they studied the issue and issued a bulletin and fix.  On edit:   I’ll bet the majority of folks on this forum would not have a really good idea HOW to inspect their hitch or what to look for.  Might be a good learning tool to start a separate thread discussing suggested procedures.

Edited October 1, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[phoenix2013]

On 9/30/2020 at 12:29 PM, GeorgiaHybrid said:

noteven,

Here is where it gets hard and you need to look at a LOT of factors. During braking, unless the truck is doing all of the braking or the trailer is doing all of the braking, you will have a shared braking force and the differential between them will be the force transferred thru the hitch. You also have chucking, uneven braking, slip resistance on the tires (did anything lock up?), delay in brake application on the trailer, brake fade on both units and a MULTIUDE of other issues to consider.

In other words, there is not a simple "the hitch failed due to this" answer at this point. Looking at a photo can't tell you the type of the steel involved (more than likely A36 or A572-50), weld procedures used, weld wire used, design calculations and assumptions used during product development, welder qualifications, weld test procedures or anything else other than the fact "it failed".

As usual GeorgiaHybrid offers an opinion based on engineering principals involved, not so much on "feelings". I actually observed with my own eyes all of them. Noteven  mentions somethin I posted in the past. A research project we conducted in the past to observe the nature and amplitude of the forces present in the king pin and therefore acting on the head under the various conditions mentioned above. It involved instrumenting a king pin with a strain (force) gauge and documenting the force vectors under different conditions stated above. 

In engineering terms what were the initial conditions and set points: The truck was a Ford F-350 1 ton with enhanced rear suspension (springs) and single (not dually) wheels. The hitch was hard (not suspended) mounted 1 1/2" in front of the rear axle. The fifth was 32 feet long approximately 8,000 lbs. GVW, 2,000 lbs. pin weight, it had dual axles with relatively soft torsion bar suspension and electric brakes. The major purpose for this exercise was to develop software for the next generation brake controller

which would respond  to the actual forces seen in the pin and would create braking output as proportional as possible to what was occurring. We suspected that things would not be linear, but  we were "more than surprised" by what we saw. We had ton of data but I chose four panels which might be the most illustrative to the discussions here. Couple of parameters here to understand the graphs, the strain gauge reading software was calibrated to show the force in pounds, the x+ graph line is a time line calibrated in seconds, the y+ graph lines (going up) show the force forward (trailer chucking into the head) the y- lines going down is a reverse chuck (trailer pulling back). For future discussion let's talk about Gs, it has to do with gravity, acceleration and deceleration, if you weigh 200 pounds 1G is equal to 200 pounds, if you go on a roller-coaster and at the bottom you feel like you weigh 400 pounds you just experienced 2Gs. Lets start basic and simple. We measured what happens on takeoff, brisk but not excessive.

 

So what we see, truck starts you see the negative force of about 400 pounds building up, then it start reversing, why? Trailer overcame the dead stop inertia and is catching up to the truck. Why the positive spike of around 200 pounds? I backed off the gas, trailer was "surprised" and came forward. Why the big almost 800 pounds spike at around 10 seconds? Either a transmission shift, or more likely a "suspension whip". On takeoff both suspensions (truck and trailer) were precessed down, once the travel speed is achieved thing need to get back to equilibrium, the problem is truck suspension is short and stiff, the trailer suspension is long (32 footer) and soft (rubber torsion bars), the two suspensions are trying to to have a "handshake". So the most you saw here was about 800 pound swing, 1/10th of a G on an 8,000 pound trailer. Next we wanted to see what happens under an aggressive stop, we found a piece of road where we could do it unimpeded and wife went through the trailer and secured or removed everything that might not "appreciate" this event. Electric brake controller was active. The initial speed was 55 miles per hour, brakes were applied hard without locking the tires, as you can see to dead stop the whole event lasted approximately 3 1/2 seconds

 

Wow, that was an eye opener, we expected a sizeable positive spike (2,420 pounds) but what the hell were these others at almost 1,500 pounds? Our first conclusion was that any interaction between  fifth wheel and a truck is an ugly event where different suspensions, wheel bases, tires, brake controller, etc., are trying to interact with no agreement. Our first deduction was that the first negative spike was caused the brake controller engaging the electric brakes on the fifth, the rest were just the suspension whips between the truck and trailer suspension. So this action of 2,420 lbs. produced almost a 1/3rd of a G on the head.  Next panel shows something a bit more "exciting", same action and starting speed, but I disabled the brake controller.

To dead stop 3 1/2 seconds, much cleaner force vector, maximum force of 3,554 lbs. or 0.4G. What puzzled me was the fact that the difference between stop with the brake controller and without did not produce a dramatic difference (2,420 vs. 3,554) so a ran a test on brake controller only (manual engagement).

Wow, 517 pounds a piss poor performance. There was reason for it, I checked the brakes after that (never checked them since taking delivery of the fifth from the dealer). Only one set of shoes was doing most of the work and was ready to burn up completely, two were barely touching the rim and the fourth one was not even close. Apparently, manufacturers slap the axles on the way they get them from Dexter and it's up to you to make sure the brakes are "actually braking".

So what's the lesson here? In fifth wheel hitches the pin weigh, 2,000 pounds in this instance is a minor player, the primary design criteria is how much chucking (positive and negative) can the design tolerate. That trailer (8,000 pounds) was a featherlight by today's standards. The reason I talked in terms of Gs is because I wanted to bring this issue to today. 16-18,000 lbs. is lightweight today, 24,000 lbs. (loaded) quite common, 32,000 lbs. and up, I know of at least half a dozen out there. During many of the runs on those tests and getting "more aggressive" stopping the truck and trailer I have seen 1/2G on the head (4,000 pounds)

So, 1/2 of a G on 18,000 lbs. = 9,000 lbs.,    on 24,000 lbs. = 12,000 lbs.,   on 32,000 lbs. = 16,000 lbs.

We are into serious forces acting on the head and the hitch, way beyond it handles vertically and if you look carefully there is nothing gentle (sinusoidal) about these vectors, these are vicious impact forces in either direction.

The Comfort Ride head in question and illustrated above has a conceptual engineering error in two areas that don't serve it well. I will illustrate in the next post when I gather some material and examples, but I think this is enough for one day.   

 

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by phoenix2013

[jenandjon]

The hitch in the picture is the gold one. That is the same generation as mine.

 

All hitches will fail without maintenance and regular inspections. I mean this chunk of iron is the only thing between your truck and your house. You should look at it once in a while. I dont believe that hitch just ripped apart coasting up to a stop sign. It had to have been stressed at some point.

[Chuck]

What kind of a BS company is Comfort Ride/Roadmaster. Call this a.m. to order new sleeves and a grade 8 bolt for my 308 hitch. I get to customer service, do you have the part number? No I don’t. Well let me put you over the technical. I get the technical, do you have the part number? No I don’t. We need to go out to our website and go through this process a blah blah blah blah blah to get the part numbers and call us back. What a crock of shit. Sorry for the foul language but this is not customer service. Stay away from these people. And, their products.

[SuiteSuccess]

5 hours ago, jenandjon said:

The hitch in the picture is the gold one. That is the same generation as mine.

 

All hitches will fail without maintenance and regular inspections. I mean this chunk of iron is the only thing between your truck and your house. You should look at it once in a while. I dont believe that hitch just ripped apart coasting up to a stop sign. It had to have been stressed at some point.

Judging from the posts there is more to this story than has been told, me thinks.

[mr. cob]

Howdy All,

Do you remember when you were a little kid and you had a secret how you knew you weren't supposed to tell anyone but it was busting to get out.  Well I received a phone call yesterday from what I consider an impeccable source VERY CLOSE to this hitch failure situation and was given the FULL STORY, of why this happened and how it was resolved.  Two things that I have mentioned in this thread were confirmed, ONE there was a manufacturing defect, TWO the defect did not cause an instant failure.

As "I" am not the first source of this information I can't disclose it and claim absolute full non partial unmistakable information, so I will keep my mouth SHUT but I URGE the person who can testify to this information to be forthcoming in providing it, that person being the owner of the truck who had the problem or the builder of the hitch.

What I can say with certainty can be proven by the photos that have been posted, look at the very first photo that was posted, it clearly shows that the failure was NOT something that happened instantly, it took a LONG time after the initial failure before this hitch finally gave way. 

Looking at the photo you can see what looks like polished surfaces in an oblong hole, it is ONLY at the bottom of that hole that is looks like it was torn.  The reason for the oblong polished side of the hole is because the hitch was sliding up and down for God only knows how many miles AFTER the manufacturing fault gave way.  It is MY OPINION that the owner/driver of the truck-hitch should have realized LONG before the hitch finally failed that there was a problem.  When the part of the hitch that failed happened, the only thing that the cross bolt that the head pivots on had for a bearing surface was the plates that formed the front and back of the mount, these parts were not designed to have that force and resulting friction placed directly on to them, thus the eventual wearing through and subsequent total failure.

Before this hitch totally failed it is reasonable to think that a normal person with decent hearing and or eyesight should have been able to see the unusual wear, hear the clanging/banging that had to have been going on and more importantly FEEL when driving the truck whilst towing the trailer that something was WRONG every time the truck pulled away from a stop, every time the truck came to a stop, probably when the transmission shifted the whole weight of the trailer would be slamming the worn parts of the hitch against and away from each other, can you say CHUCKING.

"I" think that the person who started this whole thing SHOULD post up the whole story, don't just post up a photo of a failed hitch and leave it there, tell the whole story, tell how that person was made whole over and above what would normally be considered good customer service. "I" don't really have a dog in this hunt, I have lost nothing, I have nothing to gain one way or the other but it damned sure pi$$es me off when people post stuff on the internet causing all kinds of chaos and then just let it ride possibly costing peoples livelihood and reputations to be trashed with out good reason.

Dave

[Darryl&Rita]

Dave, you ain't posting secrets that any sharp-eyed kid hasn't already figured out. It may have seemed like a catastrophe  at the time, but this wasn't a catastrophic failure. Rather, a slow motion train wreck.

[orca]

Wow  this thread sure took a turn for the worse!  Why all the anger, to the point of name calling?  There might be a back story but i doubt that it will change the fact that the hitch FAILED!  Did it fail because of lack of maintenance?  As far as i know there is no maintenance to be done on a weld.  A periodic inspection might have hinted at the impending catastrophic failure but that failure should NEVER have happened in the first place!  

If you buy a hitch made by Billy Bob in his back yard there will be no expectation of safety but when you buy a hitch from a so called reputable company one expects a certain level of safety. 

I will wait for the back story to see if the hitch owner knew of the impending failure and did nothing  but wait for that catastrophic failure so he could complain about the company! I am also interested to see what he might be lying about!

[mr. cob]

48 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

Dave, you ain't posting secrets that any sharp-eyed kid hasn't already figured out. It may have seemed like a catastrophe  at the time, but this wasn't a catastrophic failure. Rather, a slow motion train wreck.

Howdy Darryl,

Your right, "any sharp eyed kid" should be able to see that this was not an instant failure but again in my opinion that is not the way it was originally depicted.  Having been involved in just about every form of metal manufacturing and fabrication, having been a certified welder, journeyman machinist, and holding a degree in Manufacturing Technology, I feel well qualified to have and express a valid OPINION on matters such as this. 

What I can say that no reasonable person would ever dispute is simply this, if it can be made, it can be broken, there is no 100% guarantee that every man made product is without fault, any reasonable person when using ANY man made product has to use COMMON SENSE when using that product.  If a person simply relies on the products they buy to be ALWAYS without fault and doesn't bother to monitor the product especially one that in its use is subject to extreme stress they have to share in the blame when and if something terrible happens.

That is why things like this have to be talked about and shared with others so that WE can all LEARN what to look out for, if we have a problem with a product and can identify it and take action BEFORE it has catastrophic consequences, we and everyone else on the road is safer.  And that, SAFETY is the bottom line. 

I can't speak for others but after hooking up, I check and make darned sure my hitch is fully latched, when I do  quick walk around EVERY TIME I stop be if for the night or at the rest stop, one of the things I check is that the hitch is latched and all other things, tires, wheel bearings heat, etc are OK.  This really doesn't take much time and would go a long way toward preventing things like this total while in use hitch failure. 

Because of the manufacturing fault the hitch would as it did eventual FAIL, that the end damage to the truck and possible devastating wreck to include injury or death to others could have been prevented by simply being aware of the signs given by the impending failure, NOISE, SEEING the unusual wear, and the feeling felt during driving the truck extreme CHUCKING, should have alerted the owner to STOP and check this out LONG before total failure.  You will never convince me otherwise.

Dave

[Hewhoknowslittle]

15 hours ago, mr. cob said:

Howdy Darryl,

Your right, "any sharp eyed kid" should be able to see that this was not an instant failure but again in my opinion that is not the way it was originally depicted.  Having been involved in just about every form of metal manufacturing and fabrication, having been a certified welder, journeyman machinist, and holding a degree in Manufacturing Technology, I feel well qualified to have and express a valid OPINION on matters such as this. 

What I can say that no reasonable person would ever dispute is simply this, if it can be made, it can be broken, there is no 100% guarantee that every man made product is without fault, any reasonable person when using ANY man made product has to use COMMON SENSE when using that product.  If a person simply relies on the products they buy to be ALWAYS without fault and doesn't bother to monitor the product especially one that in its use is subject to extreme stress they have to share in the blame when and if something terrible happens.

That is why things like this have to be talked about and shared with others so that WE can all LEARN what to look out for, if we have a problem with a product and can identify it and take action BEFORE it has catastrophic consequences, we and everyone else on the road is safer.  And that, SAFETY is the bottom line. 

I can't speak for others but after hooking up, I check and make darned sure my hitch is fully latched, when I do  quick walk around EVERY TIME I stop be if for the night or at the rest stop, one of the things I check is that the hitch is latched and all other things, tires, wheel bearings heat, etc are OK.  This really doesn't take much time and would go a long way toward preventing things like this total while in use hitch failure. 

Because of the manufacturing fault the hitch would as it did eventual FAIL, that the end damage to the truck and possible devastating wreck to include injury or death to others could have been prevented by simply being aware of the signs given by the impending failure, NOISE, SEEING the unusual wear, and the feeling felt during driving the truck extreme CHUCKING, should have alerted the owner to STOP and check this out LONG before total failure.  You will never convince me otherwise.

Dave

Well here goes it again,

I have have had this hitch in my hand and I can tell you that is was a mistake in the welding process, . it was not welded properly causing the failure, hoverer the owner should have noticed the slop in the hitch before the failure. 

If i could post pictures I would and If Chad would do thos for me I will forward the pictures to him to show the welding  defict, and I still wand to see the original poster to tell the total story!

[Chuck]

Below is the original email put out to all rally attendees. I was at the rally, I saw the damage. It is what it is. The pictures speak for themselves. Why this thread has gone off the rails I have no idea. But I’m pretty much done with it. Out of courtesy, when I get my hitch reinforced, I will post pictures of it. The fact is this should not have happened. I spent some years in the submarine service.Would welds or lack of be accepted there. Hell no. Heads should roll. It should be the case here. Inspection of components, is always a good idea. But my hitch, as well as the one that failed, were a year and a half old. These were not old hitches. These were post comfort ride sale to roadmaster. All pics, and one video, have been posted previously to review.
——————————————————————

 

Let's do GOOD NEWS first!  Frank met Rick Olsen, designer and original manufacturer of Comfort Ride Hitch, last Friday.  Rick not only replaced the failed component but also diagnosed the problem!  Frank is doing very well.  We removed the tailgate today - what a mess!  Frank will be leaving tomorrow and heading to Camp New Horizons.  However, both Frank and I would like to thank Linda and Terry Cunningham from the depths of our hearts for their help!  

 

So, now the rest.  If you have a Comfort Ride Hitch, here is what you want to know!  Rick diagnosed the hitch failure.  Rick said it was a "bad weld".  It was a failure of a weld on the base of the hitch.  You can check this!  Get a friend (give him/her a beer or wine!), take the web restraint off the hitch, and lift it on its hinge.  Now, look at both sides of the weld that attaches the plates to the "pipe".  See picture that Frank provided.  If you notice cracks in the weld (Rick's diagnosis) or anything "out of the ordinary", get it checked!  Also, Frank has provided a link to the video when his hitch failed.  Be sure to have the sound on!

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Chuck

[Chad Heiser]

20 hours ago, Hewhoknowslittle said:

Well here goes it again,

I have have had this hitch in my hand and I can tell you that is was a mistake in the welding process, . it was not welded properly causing the failure, hoverer the owner should have noticed the slop in the hitch before the failure. 

If i could post pictures I would and If Chad would do thos for me I will forward the pictures to him to show the welding  defict, and I still wand to see the original poster to tell the total story!

If you email them to me I can post them.

[RoamingRanger]

Phoenix- Very interesting data from the strain gauge!

[phoenix2013]

RoamingRanger, indeed. Back in 1997 I was one of the Vice-Presidents in a "smoking" engineering start up. We did work overlaying digital communication over power lines, designed chips to do it with National Semiconductor. These were the first wi-fi chips to be built-into electric meters, readers would drive-by in trucks and read the power meters remotely. Automated vehicle guidance on warehouse floors (hello Amazon). We also designed software and hardware and modified Chrysler Concorde so it could drive itself and be controlled remotely, in 1997, hello Elon Musk and drones. In the "brain section" we had MIT PhD, MIT Masters and Stanford University grad (three degrees, one of them in software). I was heavy into RVing and knew that all brake controllers on the market sucked. I don't recall how it all started (none of the others were RVers), but the more we talked about it the more they got excited, "lets do it"! I did and funded the hardware development, all the brain power and software development was "free", favor to the Vice President  and "fun project" for everyone. I can tell though, once the "brains" saw this

they said, "holy smoke, we got to deal with this", particularly the software guy who had to develop an algorithm for the power output into the pucks. But he came out with some really slick stuff, like smoothing function (ignoring the negative spikes), boosting the front end power (then backing it off) to build up the magnetic field in the magnets quicker, it was basically a derivative function, if you remember your calculus and "the area under the curve". The software ran on a 1KHz loop which was more than fast enough to deal with the crap we saw. I had few of these pins instrumented, at $1,500 a piece but we also realized that  full fledged systems with instrumented pins was a pipe dream against $75 bucks Tekonsha's, so we adapted the design to respond to pressure transducers installed in the brake master cylinder. I took it around for couple of years made one sale, at $450 it was a tough slog against $75 bucks Tekonsha's. So, I took it of the market and guess what 2-3 years later out comes Brake Smart at $400, identical to what I had, I almost had a brick movement. No, they didn't steal my design, they just did a similar thing on their own. Ain't engineering world terrific!

This was the original "pipe dream"

This was the precursor to Brake Smart transducer driven.

Edited October 4, 2020 by phoenix2013

[RKMoezee]

I've been following this discussion closely because I have a older comfort ride hitch 308. It doesn't have the straps on it so I think it's the older design it was on my truck when I bought it 2 years ago and the gentleman I bought it from had it for 3 years but the hitch could of been used then I just don't know. So I thought I should inspect the hitch to check I lifted it up and sure enough the weld at both ends are cracked. The problem is I can weld up and add some bracing but it has a plastic bushing inside and I don't know how to keep it from melting. any one got a ideal? How do you guys think this should be braced. The one thing I don't like is the pivots for the head are mounted into the sides and that is 1/8 steel  I want to make new pins that are longer and weld on blocks on the outside to support that extra length also drill the pins to keep them from walking out I found them coming out already and as thin as it is It wouldn't take much to fall out of the supports. I'll add pictures here and if anyone has a educated ideal how best to reinforce the hitch I would certainly be will to listen. Thanks