go to store and forgot mask

[bigjim]

I'm tapping out for the time being. Now seeking a good route to La Mancha with a few windmills along the way.

[GlennWest]

I don't believe unproven science. 

[Barbaraok]

13 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

I don't believe unproven science. 

You don't understand science, because nothing is ever 'proven'.  All science is constantly being tested and as new data emerges, new avenues of research open up, new methodologies and instrumentation make it possible to expand knowledge and gain better understanding.  And with that better understanding, we can make better and better decisions on how to proceed, to improve life.   We can now visualize the virus, look at it's structure, determine it's attachment points to a cell, determine it's 'protective coat' and how to deactivate it.  We can also identify potential routes to take to make a vaccine that will induce the human body to make sufficient antibodies to induce immunity to the virus.   We can  now visualize how transmission takes place, as several different universities have done, showing which types of protective barriers work and which don't.   And all of that is being refined as more data is acquired.   We can make better and better estimates of what will occur if we do nothing, what happens if we shut everything down, and what happens if we take steps to mitigate transmission as people move towards leading more normal lives.   

You can't stop progress Glenn.  You can't turn back the clock.   And really, would you want to?  I grew up when Polio struck fear in the hearts of every town across the country during the summer.  One day everyone would be at swimming lessons, going on picnics, riding bikes all over town and the next, everyone would be told they couldn't go out of the yard, no more swimming for the summer because young Johnny down the street had Polio.   Vacations would change because you couldn't go visit Cousin Jane because there was Polio in that town/county/state.      But research brought the vaccine and we almost totally wiped that virus out until the antivaxxer movement started.   Why would anyone want to go back to that?  

 

[GlennWest]

Have no problem with that. It is people like you that preaches so called facts that are unproven. If it's unproven, it is not fact. This is why I wanted this closed. We just going to insult one another and you and I can not agree on a lot. 

[hemsteadc]

I used to hear this 'unproven' argument from a global warming denier.  I think he called it 'unsettled.' He didn't understand science either. 

Science evolves, it changes with changing circumstances.  People used to think the earth was the center of the solar system.  That it was flat.  And with religion getting in the way and actually executing people for belief in science, it's a wonder we know anything. 

Think of it like a criminal trial.  We don't KNOW the defendant committed a crime because nobody was there to see it, but we rely on the preponderance of EVIDENCE to reach a reasonable conclusion.  That's science. Is it ever wrong? Yes, but we have a much better chance of being right with this method than any other.  

When I hear our beloved president et al badmouthing medicine for first not requiring masks, and then changing their minds, I just cringe.  They don't understand how this works.

Edited September 4, 2020 by hemsteadc

[mptjelgin]

1 hour ago, GlennWest said:

I don't believe unproven science. 

This would be better stated as "I don't believe what I don't believe".  It is that simple. You have set an impossible standard for proven/unproven because it suits your beliefs.

The science is there and it is well-supported. The death rate worldwide is way up for 2020 and the only plausible explanation is COVID-19.  Wearing masks has had a demonstrated positive impact on infection and death rate. That is the science. Unfortunately it has gotten all tangled up in politics, rhetoric, strongly stated, but unsupported opinions, etc. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by mptjelgin

[DanZemke]

1 hour ago, GlennWest said:

I don't believe unproven science. 

Glenn,

I don't believe in unproven science either.

You appear to be suffering, due to something, that most other posters in this thread, are not suffering from.  Specifically, you're young enough that you still need to work to survive, and your opportunity to do so has been dramatically reduced.  I'm no longer working either, but I do empathize with you and you're wife's situation.

I also have significant experience in statics and econometrics.  With that hat on, the current state of Covid-19 risks and responses is all about the odds.  If the USA had relied on local experiences or a mandate of absolute truth, seat belts probably would not be mandatory in the USA.  But viewed from an overall odds perspective, seat belts dramatically reduced injuries and fatalities.  This is old news, but IMO a reasonable analogy for addressing the current uncertainty with our Covid-19 response.  We're just earlier in the cycle and only have indications of what to do, rather than statistically proven results.

So I have a suggestion.  View this discussion as a conversation about the odds.  Seldom is anyone "right" or "wrong".  It's about the odds of a more likely result.  And consider that some folks are presently focused on today's very difficult reality, and others are imagining would it could be like in the future.

Best wishes to you.

Edited September 4, 2020 by DanZemke
Clarity

[Barbaraok]

1 hour ago, GlennWest said:

Have no problem with that. It is people like you that preaches so called facts that are unproven. If it's unproven, it is not fact. This is why I wanted this closed. We just going to insult one another and you and I can not agree on a lot. 

What 'unproven' facts have I stated?   Facts are based on data.   The SARS-2 Covid-19 virus is a fact. It's modes of infection are now well documented (facts), though new modes may be discovered. That does not alter the facts we already know.   Now, you might not like the estimates of infection rates, etc., and those can change based upon habits of people in a given area.  

This thread has shown that most people now recognize that we are all in this together, that doing the simple things like wearing a mask and keeping physical distance is helping to slow down the spread and allow us to have somewhat a normal life.  It is interesting to notice how everyone is seeing an increase in mask usage in most areas of the country that have had a lot of deaths, etc.   And that people in very rural areas that have seen little deaths are still resisting change.   In that respect, I think this is a very good thread for people to comment on changes happening where they currently are - especially since fall travel season is upon us. 

[hemsteadc]

1 hour ago, DanZemke said:

If the USA had relied on local experiences or a mandate of absolute truth, seat belts probably would not be mandatory in the USA. 

Perfection is not reasonable in any discipline, product or idea.  

[DanZemke]

9 minutes ago, hemsteadc said:

Perfection is not reasonable in any discipline, product or idea - please clarify.

I suspect almost everyone can agree with that.  However, I don't get what you are trying to contribute.

Edited September 4, 2020 by DanZemke

[hemsteadc]

3 minutes ago, DanZemke said:

I suspect almost everyone can agree with that.  However, I don't get what you are trying to contribute.

You just said 'absolute truth.'  I was expanding on that.  Perfection is what doubters use to deny any idea they don't want to believe.

[DanZemke]

19 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

This thread has shown that most people now recognize that we are all in this together, that doing the simple things like wearing a mask and keeping physical distance is helping to slow down the spread and allow us to have somewhat a normal life.

Agreed, but it's also shown that "most people" ignore the unintended consequences of policies that discourage hiring innocent workers like Glenn.

I'm for wearing masks and social distancing.  I'm also for policies that enable Glenn to get back to work.

Edited September 4, 2020 by DanZemke
clarity

[Kirk W]

1 minute ago, hemsteadc said:

Perfection is what doubters use to deny any idea they don't want to believe.

Totality might be a better choice of term for your purpose. I had an English teacher in high school who used to caution about the use of the words always and never in most statements. The absolute of anything is a very rare thing. 

[Barbaraok]

Just now, DanZemke said:

Agreed, but it's also shown that "most people" ignore the unintended consequences of policies that discourage hiring innocent workers like Glenn.

I don't know that they ignore, more like they didn't know (at least I didn't), that some firms were using this as a way to reduce numbers of workers on their sites.   As I said, this is a foreshadowing of what we will see all over the country as a lot of jobs are taken over by robots.   Walmart is testing stocking robots in the Phoenix area, and I'm sure in other areas of the country.   We've all seen the pictures of robot welders in the auto industry.   Lots of universities are going more and more online classes, with reduced staff costs.   Computer aided surgery is occurring now, increased use of tele-medicine.  The future will be 'interesting' but also will be disruptive on a lot of people's lives.

 

[hemsteadc]

10 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

Totality might be a better choice of term for your purpose. 

It might be.  The number of scientists agreeing the earth rotates around the sun is close to, if not 100%.  The number of scientists agreeing masks help stop the spread of a virus is less than that.

Science is a consensus, not absolute, like 12 jurors.

Edited September 4, 2020 by hemsteadc

[DanZemke]

10 minutes ago, hemsteadc said:

You just said 'absolute truth.

Please consider the context.  My intended point was that if the USA had relied on absolute truth, we wouldn't have seat belts today, which is clearly an improvement by almost any measure.

[Barbaraok]

But the number  of people believing in a "Flat Earth" is increasing.  Each new shift in technology/science has seen a number of "Luddites" advocating against change.  Our problem is that change occurs so much faster that people are having trouble keeping up with all the changes.   Students today do not know how to use card catalogs in the library - they just head for a computer and search for the information they want.   We had  cell phones that made calls - period!  

Edited September 4, 2020 by Barbaraok

[DanZemke]

10 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

As I said, this is a foreshadowing of what we will see all over the country as a lot of jobs are taken over by robots.

Barb,

I agree that is a challenge.  However, it's unlikely the reason Glenn is having trouble finding a job today.

Reasonable assertion?

[hemsteadc]

Enough philosophy for one day.  Guess I'll go watch my stocks tank.

[Barbaraok]

8 minutes ago, DanZemke said:

Barb,

I agree that is a challenge.  However, it's unlikely the reason Glenn is having trouble finding a job today.

Reasonable assertion?

I think a lot of businesses are looking at staffing levels and seeing what changes they can make  to improve the businesses bottom line.   And that never is good for employees but is for investors/owners of the companies.  The point I was trying to make is that everyone should realize that there will be changes we can't foresee and a lot of displacement within the society.   Job lwill change and those that will adapt will benefit, those that won't move /adapt will see their lives affected by the changes.  

[DanZemke]

2 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

The point I was trying to make is that everyone should realize that there will be changes we can't foresee and a lot of displacement within the society.  

And I agree, without any reservations.

IMO, what has been missing in most of this thread is empathy for Glenn.  He appears to be concerned about his present unemployment status.  This thread seems to be close to running it's course.  Glenn started it.  It appears from most posts that  "positions" trump empathy.  When the dance is over,  why not pivot to empathy. 

To be clear, I'm not advocating for charity for Glenn, I'm advocating for community decency.  He appears to be in trouble, and IMO, deserves our support.

 

[Randyretired]

This virus and the lock down has disrupted so many lives but there are clearly winners and losers.  I talked with one gentleman that said my choice would be to work and maintain my livelihood  with the possibility I MIGHT even die or for sure loose my business, and home.  His family would be homeless.  Another case is a cousin of mine who had a stroke and brain bleed.  He was around 50.  He is now in a care home but it feels like prison to him.  Under Colorado restrictions he has not been allowed a visitor since March and often locked in his room.  He was a respected and successful attorney and still has much of his brain functions.  He has said he would rather take the chance of covid than live like this but he might get to see his wife for the first time in months this week.  All of the restrictions have left some, such as these people and even to some extent Glenn in a bad place.  I believe it is past time to review the restrictions to find a way to help those that have taken a bigger hit than most.  In some cases the restrictions are clearly worse than the disease. 

[Barbaraok]

Randy,

If the only person that would be affected was the gentleman who would get the virus, then so be it. BUT he could be an asymptomatic spreader that would infect people who walked into his business, infect his aging parents, his kids who would go to school and infect their teachers and other students, and on and on and on.  Just look at the spread since Sturgis - and that's just the ones they are tracing.    Last week ASU has 200 students that tested positive (after returning that week), yesterday the number if over 900!  How many janitors and faculty will take the disease home to their families and further the spread?      I do feel for those caught in the lockdowns.  My husband was in the ICU after open heart surgery in March when they locked everything down.  For over a week I had to make do with once a day FaceTime visit.   Yes, I know that it was just only a week or so, but it was very hard on him, especially those days when he was in and out of consciousness.  And I was making decisions over the phone.   Same thing happened when his pacemaker was implanted in June.  I dropped him off at 6 am the day of surgery, luckily it was only overnight that he had to stay, so could talk to him after the procedure, and picked him up at noon time the next day.     But it was necessary to help make sure hospital staff weren't exposed to the disease.  

This is hard on everyone.  My aunt, who is 96 yrs old, is figuratively a prisoner in her home.  My cousin's husband, who was hospitalized at 70 with the disease but has recovered, does all the shopping for both his family including her.   My two cousins go see her once a week, wearing masks when they see her, and both of them are essentially self-isolating at home.   So we call her and chat once in a while.   

Were restrictions that great necessary.   I believe so because we just didn't realize how easily the transmission could be and the role of asymptomatic spreaders.  Now we are in a position to make adjustments, more people are willing to do the simple things like wearing a mask, using physical distancing, etc., to help reduce the infection rate as we all wait for vaccines and better treatments.

 

[Barbaraok]

1 hour ago, DanZemke said:

And I agree, without any reservations.

IMO, what has been missing in most of this thread is empathy for Glenn.  He appears to be concerned about his present unemployment status.  This thread seems to be close to running it's course.  Glenn started it.  It appears from most posts that  "positions" trump empathy.  When the dance is over,  why not pivot to empathy. 

To be clear, I'm not advocating for charity for Glenn, I'm advocating for community decency.  He appears to be in trouble, and IMO, deserves our support.

 

I don't think anyone doesn't have empathy for Glenn.  But it took a long time to understand why he was so anti-mask, so against the effort to contain the virus.  Unfortunately there is no easy solution for the monumental shifts in types of jobs that are roaring at us.   Clearly, there are jobs out there for welders, but those may involve a willingness to relocated, and a lot of people are opposed to doing that.  And this is just the tip of the changes that will occur as more and more welders are replaced by new technologies, from robots to IA to 3D printing to the use of composite materials.   As a nation we need to figure out how to improve the job market for all workers and to help those displaced to use their skills in new situations.  And that takes a willingness to spend money on infrastructure, which would pull us into heavy political discussions so we won't go there.

[Pappy Yokum]

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Totality might be a better choice of term for your purpose. I had an English teacher in high school who used to caution about the use of the words always and never in most statements. The absolute of anything is a very rare thing. 

 I almost never say never, LOL.

I also had a HS Teacher in 1956, who liked to say:

"It's OK to be green......but don't be evergreen!"

>>>>>>>>>>>>

BTW - Flat Earth.  Of course it's flat !! - You don't fall off, 'cause it's actually square like a box. It's the transitions from one side to the other that will get ya!!

Wearing a mask is consideration of and for others - besides whatever personal protection it may provide.  NOT wearing a mask is lack of said consideration for others.  If it does no good (for you or "them")  nothing gained nothing lost.

.