OT: 5er Electrics; shore power, inverter, converter

[SuiteSuccess]

My 5er has the following setup.  Shore power which feeds through a Xantrex pure sine wave inverter/charger (with internal transfer switch) and I assume converter to get some 12 volt for the LED lights.  The Xantrex is used to power the fridge only when off shore power.  My questions:  1.  In a lurch could I simply “jump“ the inverter/charger if the Xantrex failed?  If so how?   2.  I assume the lights are all 12 volt because the LEDs still come on when inverter is off and battery cutoff is on.  Is that circuit in all likelihood through a converter that takes off prior to the inverter and that converter is only active with shore power otherwise batteries supply lighting?

[COFLTravler]

1) Yes use to do it all the time for customers when their invertor went bad.  When your on shore power 1 or 2 circuits "pass through" the unit and onto the circuits.  You can remove the circuit wiring and just wire it direct to the incoming shore power connection on the invertor for a temp fix.  2)  While on shore power the convertor provides 12 VDC to your 12 V system and then charges your batteries.  If this goes bad you are on just battery like dry camping.  If the convertor side fails use a battery charger on your batteries for the short term to ensure you maintain 12 VDC.

Do you have a generator?  This is the only reason whey you need a transfer switch.  Are you sure it's internal to the invertor/convertor or is it mounted just before this unit - so whether your on shore or genset it powers the invertor/convertor. 

[SuiteSuccess]

Thanks.  The paperwork with my Xantrex says it has an internal transfer switch.  And yes I do have a generator also.  Interesting.  So the Xantrex is doing the converting also not just for the battery charge but also the coach 12 v?  My Xantrex shows three phase charging on the panel when plugged to shore.  I don’t necessarily have a stand alone converter?

Edited August 22, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[Nwcid]

I am not sure what you mean by "jump"

You have inverters, which take power from a 12v source (input) and make 120v (output).  Typically these are not wired into a 120v system so you have to plug the item(s) you want directly into the plug ins on the inverter.

Next you have inverter/charger, which is what it sounds like you have.  These have 12v and 120v inputs along with 12v and 120v outputs, so they are directly wired into a system.  With this system when you plug into 120v shore power it "passes" though directly to the outlets.  If you unplug from shore it automatically "transfers" using the 12v to invert to 120v power.  

Also when you plug into 120v shore power the inverter/charger uses the shore power to 12v charge your batteries.  I am new to HDT, but it  is very unlikely that you have a standalone 12v converter like trailer as there is no need.  The 12v items in the truck run directly off the batteries and charge when the truck is running, or in your case with the inverter/charger.  Also most converters (not all) still need a battery to work properly to supply 12v power as most converters are basically a battery charger. 

None of my trailers that have had inverter/chargers installed had converters, or at least ones that were still hooked up as there is no need. 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Nwcid

[SuiteSuccess]

52 minutes ago, Nwcid said:

I am not sure what you mean by "jump"

You have inverters, which take power from a 12v source (input) and make 120v (output).  Typically these are not wired into a 120v system so you have to plug the item(s) you want directly into the plug ins on the inverter.

Next you have inverter/charger, which is what it sounds like you have.  These have 12v and 120v inputs along with 12v and 120v outputs, so they are directly wired into a system.  With this system when you plug into 120v shore power it "passes" though directly to the outlets.  If you unplug from shore it automatically "transfers" using the 12v to invert to 120v power.  

Also when you plug into 120v shore power the inverter/charger uses the shore power to 12v charge your batteries.  I am new to HDT, but it  is very unlikely that you have a standalone 12v converter like trailer as there is no need.  The 12v items in the truck run directly off the batteries and charge when the truck is running, or in your case with the inverter/charger.  Also most converters (not all) still need a battery to work properly to supply 12v power as most converters are basically a battery charger. 

None of my trailers that have had inverter/chargers installed had converters, or at least ones that were still hooked up as there is no need. 

 

Thanks, for the info. This inverter/charger is in my trailer not the truck.   When I say “jump” I basically meant how could I continue to get shore power into my coach in the event my inverter completely failed.  I had a glitch with it right after buying the trailer where it alarmed at 4 a.m. and would not allow power even into the coach through the inverter.  Acted like the internal transfer switch had failed.  Had zero 120 or 12 v output.  It was flashing and alarming and even the “off” switch would not turn off the alarm or inverter. Unfortunately don’t have the code here at home.  Had to go outside, completely turn off shore power, wait 10 minutes, turn back on and all reset and was fine.  Talked to Xantrex  on phone next day and they had no clue why it alarmed but said several folks had same type of episode, but they offered no fix...just a gremlin.  So if that situation were to occur again and it would NOT reset, how would I get power into the coach?  Somehow, I would need to completely bypass the inverter so was thinking might be a good time to go ahead and rig that manual switch up during this Covid downtime.

Edited August 24, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[Jim & Wilma]

Carl, 

If you have space, you could install a manual transfer switch. Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009TNX1KA/ref=dp_cerb_1

Instead of generator input, you’d wire to your inverter output. 

I did something similar but instead used interlocking circuit breakers in my inverter sub panel. Came in handy once though I’ll admit I did it more out “entertainment” than a great time saver. I probably spent 8 hours researching and installing to save an hour or two bypassing the inverter with jumpers/wire nuts.  Of course, I’d still do it again, just because. 
 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Jim & Wilma

[Nwcid]

3 hours ago, SuiteSuccess said:

Thanks, for the info. This inverter/charger is in my trailer not the truck.   When I say “jump” I basically meant how could I continue to get shore power into my coach in the event my inverter completely failed.  I had a glitch with it right after buying the trailer where it alarmed at 4 a.m. and would not allow power even into the coach through the inverter.  Acted like the internal transfer switch had failed.  Had zero 120 or 12 v output.  It was flashing and alarming and even the “off” switch would not turn off the alarm or inverter. Unfortunately don’t have the code here at home.  Had to go outside, completely turn off shore power, wait 10 minutes, turn back on and all reset and was fine.  Talked to Xantrex  on phone next day and they had no clue why it alarmed but said several folks had same type of episode, but they offered no fix...just a gremlin.  So if that situation were to occur again and it would NOT reset, how would I get power into the coach?  Somehow, I would need to completely bypass the inverter so was thinking might be a good time to go ahead and rig that manual switch up during this Covid downtime.

I am sorry, I read the question a bit wrong.  That makes a lot more sense.  

The only way I know of, having worked with my own and ones on ambulances at work, you would have to disconnect the input and output 120v wires and connect them directly.  

If the internal transfer switch goes out there is no way to override it. 

In theory you could make a permanent bypass line with some sort of breaker, or disconnect inline.  You would just have to make sure it was a secure disconnect that could not accidentally come on. 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Nwcid

[NeverEasy]

Carl,

I like to start with a layout we can understand and go from there.  The "Pass-through relay" I show in this drawing is actually an electronic device that has something like a 50 micro-second switch over rate.  Most electronic devices (like televisions) won't even know it lost and then regained power.

Without the solar input, is this what your system looks like?

I don't know what happens at total failure of the inverter.  I would hope that it fails-safe to the by-pass mode.  Have you turned it off to see if AC power will still transfer through it?  The one on my truck does.  If so, you probably don't need a bypass unless you need power while it is being replaced.
 

Click For Full-Size Image.

 

[SuiteSuccess]

Chet,

When hooked to shore power it will not turn off.  Don’t know why but it won’t.  When the gremlin I described above occurred my electrical management system showed zero output from the inverter even though it was turned on and shore power was hooked up, which should have just passed through.  I am not electrical at all but it seems that even though the inverter is there just to run the fridge going down the road, everything (batteries, shore power, generator) is connected to it.  In other words it is the “gatekeeper “.  Soooo... if the gremlin reoccurs and is a permanent failure, I have no way to get power to the inside of the coach, thus why I wanted a switchable bypass of the shore power which would get around the inverter.

Edit:  please see post below.  Apparently wife corrected the story.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[DesertMiner]

Do you have a “power management system? If so that is usually the “gate keeper”. An inverter dedicated to just the circuit that powers your fridge usually would not cause your problem as I read it. If the transfer switch in the inverter  fails it usually causes issues with the inverter not the whole coach.  Just spit balling here...

 

 

 

[SuiteSuccess]

40 minutes ago, DesertMiner said:

Do you have a “power management system? If so that is usually the “gate keeper”. An inverter dedicated to just the circuit that powers your fridge usually would not cause your problem as I read it. If the transfer switch in the inverter  fails it usually causes issues with the inverter not the whole coach.  Just spit balling here...

 

 

 

Ok this getting old and forgetful has a real downside.  My wife said I told the story wrong so let me see if told her way makes more sense.  Awakened at 4:00 am with inverter alarming.  Inverter alarm button silenced it only for 60 secs.  Inverter “off” button would not turn off inverter.  Only 120v circuit supplied by inverter is refrigerator so it alarmed also showing no power.  Inverter display showed 0 power output.  She said we still had power to the ac and lights.  I did not test any plugs.  I turned off shore power at pedestal and then was able to turn off inverter using off button.  Waited ten minutes, turned on shore power, inverter came back on, and inverter showed 120v output and frig was happy again.  Seemed as if transfer switch glitched during this episode and wouldn’t accept input either 12v from batteries or 120v from shore power to produce any output.  Has never recurred but if it does want to isolate the inverter so 1.  I can turn it off while shore power is on 2.  If I can’t turn off the inverter then the alarm continues to come on every 60 secs.  I don’t want to choose between ac or an alarm.  

[DesertMiner]

Just install a on/off switch between the batteries and inverter. Inverter will turn off with no power from the batteries. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by DesertMiner

[Nwcid]

2 hours ago, SuiteSuccess said:

Ok this getting old and forgetful has a real downside.  My wife said I told the story wrong so let me see if told her way makes more sense.  Awakened at 4:00 am with inverter alarming.  Inverter alarm button silenced it only for 60 secs.  Inverter “off” button would not turn off inverter.  Only 120v circuit supplied by inverter is refrigerator so it alarmed also showing no power.  Inverter display showed 0 power output.  She said we still had power to the ac and lights.  I did not test any plugs.  I turned off shore power at pedestal and then was able to turn off inverter using off button.  Waited ten minutes, turned on shore power, inverter came back on, and inverter showed 120v output and frig was happy again.  Seemed as if transfer switch glitched during this episode and wouldn’t accept input either 12v from batteries or 120v from shore power to produce any output.  Has never recurred but if it does want to isolate the inverter so 1.  I can turn it off while shore power is on 2.  If I can’t turn off the inverter then the alarm continues to come on every 60 secs.  I don’t want to choose between ac or an alarm.  

 

Now we are getting somewhere.  When you say the "inverter showed 120v" I am assuming that means you have a digital display.  If that is the case you need to look up the manual for your model of inverter and look up the Fault Code.  The codes start with an E and have a 2 digit code after that.  

Depending on why the unit is faulting, it will not shut off since it is a warning and you have to cut the power to the unit.  While it is possible, I find it hard to believe there is not a breaker of some kind on both the 12v side and 120v side.  This would be the proper way to disconnect it from power. 

 

[SuiteSuccess]

10 hours ago, DesertMiner said:

Just install a on/off switch between the batteries and inverter. Inverter will turn off with no power from the batteries. 

Wouldn’t I need two in theory?  One from battery and one from the shore power feed?  If the shore power is turned on the inverter is turned on and cannot be turned off .  Sorry, not trying to be difficult just trying to wrap my head around this.

[SuiteSuccess]

8 hours ago, Nwcid said:

 

Now we are getting somewhere.  When you say the "inverter showed 120v" I am assuming that means you have a digital display.  If that is the case you need to look up the manual for your model of inverter and look up the Fault Code.  The codes start with an E and have a 2 digit code after that.  

Depending on why the unit is faulting, it will not shut off since it is a warning and you have to cut the power to the unit.  While it is possible, I find it hard to believe there is not a breaker of some kind on both the 12v side and 120v side.  This would be the proper way to disconnect it from power. 

 

I’ll be camping soon with some folks that know electricity.  Will see if they can help me track this down.  Thanks for the help.

[COFLTravler]

Just so you know, when on shore power the invertor is not inverting - it's just "passing through" the shore power to just the  items that are connected to the invertor.  All other AC components are direct from your AC panel when on shore power.  When on shore power you should be able to turn the invertor on and off HOWEVER all that does is place the invertor in standby so if you lose AC power it will invert.  If the invertor is in the off position, when on shore power and you lose this, the invertor will not invert.  With my 15+ years in the RV repair business I am guessing sitting here at my computer, your unit is starting to fail and eventually will.  But until then I would not necessarily replace.  When the time does come you can either purchase a new one or a manufacturer rebuilt for considerably less.....my 2 cents worth....

Mark

[SuiteSuccess]

1 hour ago, COFLTravler said:

Just so you know, when on shore power the invertor is not inverting - it's just "passing through" the shore power to just the  items that are connected to the invertor.  All other AC components are direct from your AC panel when on shore power.  When on shore power you should be able to turn the invertor on and off HOWEVER all that does is place the invertor in standby so if you lose AC power it will invert.  If the invertor is in the off position, when on shore power and you lose this, the invertor will not invert.  With my 15+ years in the RV repair business I am guessing sitting here at my computer, your unit is starting to fail and eventually will.  But until then I would not necessarily replace.  When the time does come you can either purchase a new one or a manufacturer rebuilt for considerably less.....my 2 cents worth....

Mark

Thanks Mark.  I do have a new in the box in the coach if it fails.  Got a really good deal on a 2000 watt Kisae Abso pure sine wave inverter/ charger.  Jack has used them at RV Lifestyles and liked them.  Also another friend recommended.  I will have to say in my truck , I have an 1800 watt Xantrex freedom inverter/charger that has been great for over ten years.  The Xantrex in my coach is 1000 watt sine wave but kind of concerning that Xantrex knew of the glitch but hadn’t bothered to ferret out a cause or solution.  Just basically told me to reset by turning off shore power and inverter if it happened again.

Edited August 26, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[NeverEasy]

Carl,

Your inverter/charger should be fed off a AC breaker in your main panel.  Turn it off vice disconnecting service to the whole RV. 
 See the diagram up above.  It would be the top breaker in the diagram.

Further, if you are interested in a bypass for the system, Jim from above suggested a manual transfer option.  I would opt for an automatic function in the event of loss while you were not in residence.  You don't need a big unit, 30 amp would do.  I would look to use this one and make it the inverter output land on the "generator" input, thus, if the inverter was working, it would default to the inverter output vice bypass.:  https://www.amazon.com/Technology-Research-41300-Transfer-Switch/dp/B00IYUPRUG/ref=sr_1_13?crid=334OGFZK0EUPG&dchild=1&keywords=30+amp+transfer+switch&qid=1598558375&sprefix=30+amp+transfer+switch%2Caps%2C1395&sr=8-13

 

 

 

[Big5er]

Carl, gremlins with the Xantrex are what cost me everything in the refrigerator and freezer, including $5k worth of medicine. Those gremlins are also the reason I replaced the Xantrex with a Magnum. 

[SuiteSuccess]

33 minutes ago, Big5er said:

Carl, gremlins with the Xantrex are what cost me everything in the refrigerator and freezer, including $5k worth of medicine. Those gremlins are also the reason I replaced the Xantrex with a Magnum. 

😳. Not good.

[Darryl&Rita]

Gremlins are the reason ours is locked in "Invert", never allowed to go to bypass. Lost some days off food life, but the meds were fine. Been that way for 6 years, won't change until the inverter gets replaced.

[NeverEasy]

Carl,

Here is a diagram with an auto transfer switch to bypass the inverter should it no longer provide AC by either its normal bypass or its inverter process.  If you are only powering your frig, 14 AWG wire will be ok but I never use it.  I use 12 AWG wire.  Its cost is not all that much more.
I showed it adding a breaker to feed the auto transfer switch so that you can kill the inverter breaker.  It will keep the frig running while you repair/replace the inverter.  

Click For Full-Size Image.

[SuiteSuccess]

Thanks so much Chet.

[Chad Heiser]

19 hours ago, NeverEasy said:

Carl,

Here is a diagram with an auto transfer switch to bypass the inverter should it no longer provide AC by either its normal bypass or its inverter process.  If you are only powering your frig, 14 AWG wire will be ok but I never use it.  I use 12 AWG wire.  Its cost is not all that much more.
I showed it adding a breaker to feed the auto transfer switch so that you can kill the inverter breaker.  It will keep the frig running while you repair/replace the inverter.  

Click For Full-Size Image.

A bit off topic, but what are you using to draw those diagrams?  I am looking for a program to help me with stuff like that.

[NeverEasy]

Visio.  Bought it here.  https://www.digitalmaze.com/

Use this tutorial to get started.  

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by NeverEasy
Added tutorial