Your Trailer Weight Vs Your Truck Size And Your Drivability

[kstills]

And if you would add any other thoughts it would be appreciated. 

[HERO Maker]

If you mean my drive ability as if I'm comfortable driving this setup, than sure!  But as we all know, there are other klutzes on the road out there!  So it really comes down to How Safe Are You on the road?  If pulling 24K lbs with maybe 8 or 9,000 truck is comfortable for you, than go for it if that is your mission!  But do remember that almost all trailers (especially electric brakes) could fail you at some time!  What are the chances that it would be when you are on the flats?   You've heard of the tail wagging the dog!  So if safety is your main mission while you are out on the road, please consider your truck size.  There are lots of folks who have pulled for many years without any problems, but what if?  HDT would be the safest!  And with that you could eliminate the electric brakes and go with air over hydraulic (bludot) system.  Work out what your mission plan is.  And if it would be a small trailer now, then what if you decide to go bigger in the future and maybe carry a car in that trailer?  One truck - one time.

[noteven]

Trailer - 3 axle 39ft weighs 18,000lbs approx 3500 on the pin depending on garage load.

Truck - 160" wheelbase 2 axle Kenworth dually. 11R22.5 tires, air brakes. Truck by itself weighs 7100lbs on the steer axle and 7600lbs on the drive axle.

It has an economical 8.3 Cummins engine with only 950lbs/ft of torques and 280ish HP (2100 rpm) so it does not win any Tow Your Big Fiver To The Top Of The Hill Trophy Dashes.  

If fact, it is so slow climbing grades the awards ceremony and podium is always packed up and gone when I get to the top of the hill. I'd like to see the awards ceremony once .... 

Complete rig is 56ft long overall and handles nice.  Lots of brakes. 

My truck #2 that can pull this trailer is a 2006 Dodge diesel 168" wheelbase - kind of irrelevant in today's pickup world. This truck handles the trailer ok. It has a bigger turn radius than the Kenworth.  It burns more fuel / mile than the Kenworth. It's 4x4 so you can be braver where you want to camp. 

Pickups are kind of floppy under heavy trailers compared to fully grown trucks. 

Today's super pickups are pretty capable. For what they cost they should be. 

[kstills]

19 minutes ago, noteven said:

Trailer - 3 axle 39ft weighs 18,000lbs approx 3500 on the pin depending on garage load.

Truck - 160" wheelbase 2 axle Kenworth dually. 11R22.5 tires, air brakes. Truck by itself weighs 7100lbs on the steer axle and 7600lbs on the drive axle.

It has an economical 8.3 Cummins engine with only 950lbs/ft of torques and 280ish HP (2100 rpm) so it does not win any Tow Your Big Fiver To The Top Of The Hill Trophy Dashes.  

If fact, it is so slow climbing grades the awards ceremony and podium is always packed up and gone when I get to the top of the hill. I'd like to see the awards ceremony once .... 

Complete rig is 56ft long overall and handles nice.  Lots of brakes. 

My truck #2 that can pull this trailer is a 2006 Dodge diesel 168" wheelbase - kind of irrelevant in today's pickup world. This truck handles the trailer ok. It has a bigger turn radius than the Kenworth.  It burns more fuel / mile than the Kenworth. It's 4x4 so you can be braver where you want to camp. 

Pickups are kind of floppy under heavy trailers compared to fully grown trucks. 

Today's super pickups are pretty capable. For what they cost they should be. 

Would you consider a fully setup F450 as a suitable tow vehicle for your rig? 

[noteven]

2 minutes ago, kstills said:

Would you consider a fully setup F450 as a suitable tow vehicle for your rig? 

Truckwise yes - especially a cab and chassis model with a flatbed body with storage below decks.  

I have no interest in Ford dieselsbased only on cost of ownership stories from owners I know. Nothing scientific about it. 

I've only had personal experience with Cummins and Duramax powered pickups. 

 

[Star Dreamer]

We had a 1ton Chevy Diesel Dually pulling an 18k trailer. It pulled it great, stopping was a problem. We had someone cut across in front of us to do a left hand turn and there was no way we were stopping in time, luckily they moved out of the way in time. This was with good trailer brakes. That truck also beat us to death and you were wore out after 6-8 hours of driving. We went to an HDT over 8 years ago. The HDT stopped the same trailer better and even one time when we only had one brake out of 6 working. We could drive easily 10  hours and still felt like we could go longer. The air ride is 100% better. 

[kstills]

11 minutes ago, Star Dreamer said:

We had a 1ton Chevy Diesel Dually pulling an 18k trailer. It pulled it great, stopping was a problem. We had someone cut across in front of us to do a left hand turn and there was no way we were stopping in time, luckily they moved out of the way in time. This was with good trailer brakes. That truck also beat us to death and you were wore out after 6-8 hours of driving. We went to an HDT over 8 years ago. The HDT stopped the same trailer better and even one time when we only had one brake out of 6 working. We could drive easily 10  hours and still felt like we could go longer. The air ride is 100% better. 

My issue is needing a get around vehicle if I go with a 5er. I don't think the HDT would be a very good 'drive to town' vehicle for the most part. 

What would you suggest would be the heaviest 5er to pull with a MDT? 

[kstills]

13 minutes ago, Star Dreamer said:

We had a 1ton Chevy Diesel Dually pulling an 18k trailer. It pulled it great, stopping was a problem. We had someone cut across in front of us to do a left hand turn and there was no way we were stopping in time, luckily they moved out of the way in time. This was with good trailer brakes. That truck also beat us to death and you were wore out after 6-8 hours of driving. We went to an HDT over 8 years ago. The HDT stopped the same trailer better and even one time when we only had one brake out of 6 working. We could drive easily 10  hours and still felt like we could go longer. The air ride is 100% better. 

And this issue is killing me atm, as there are some really nice used 5ers from Excel Peterson I would love to have, except that they all weigh a proverbial 8 tons....

[Star Dreamer]

1 minute ago, kstills said:

My issue is needing a get around vehicle if I go with a 5er. I don't think the HDT would be a very good 'drive to town' vehicle for the most part. 

What would you suggest would be the heaviest 5er to pull with a MDT? 

Our HDT has a tighter turning radius and was not much larger foot print than our dually and we used it has a daily driver. Just can't go thru many drive thru's and may have to park a little father out but the exercise helps us.  Many of the HDT people (including us now) have a smart car for daily driving. Each MDT will have different towing capabilities so you need to verify what any that you might be looking at can do. They can be pricey for newer ones.

[Star Dreamer]

4 minutes ago, kstills said:

And this issue is killing me atm, as there are some really nice used 5ers from Excel Peterson I would love to have, except that they all weigh a proverbial 8 tons....

8 tons (16k#) is nothing, our new trailer has a GVWR of 24k# and empty weighed 16k. 

[mptjelgin]

FWIW - There are many, many people towing trailers in that weight class with dually pickups. They are doing it safely and responsibly and have done so for years. This board has some serious advocates for HDT's who sometimes refer to the more common LDT's as "toy trucks" and advocate strongly for what they are driving. But you can safely handle a trailer in that weight class with just about any dually pickup being produced these days. They are very powerful, have sophisticated engine brakes and tow/haul modes in the transmission, and large capable disc brakes.  As big and heavy as the HDT's? Nope.  But that doesn't mean they can't handle the task. 

[k4rs]

An often heard phrase is that you can never have too much truck. There is a great deal of truth to that, but there are other things to consider as well. Previously mentioned is that an HDT makes a poor daily driver. Another thing to consider is the licensing and insurance requirements. Our home state of Florida requires a commercial license and insurance for an HDT. Other states are easier for non-commercial use.

Back when we were preparing to start our full time adventure, I did a lot or research on trucks. I spent lots of time going over the towing guides from all of the manufactures. I ended up purchasing an F-250 diesel because it had the highest tow rating available (14,000 pounds). Newer models have raised that considerably.

We ended up with a 36 foot fifth wheel that weighed about 10,000 pounds empty and had a gross vehicle rating of 17,000 pounds. We weighed the loaded rig several times and were very careful not to exceed 14,000 pounds (the maximum rating of the truck). I would have loved to shave a couple thousand pounds off of that for a greater safety margin, but that just was not going to happen.

To make a long story short, we pulled that rig through all lower 48 states, many Canadian provinces, and up to Alaska without issue. Keeping your speed down, using lower gears on down grades, and generally defensive driving really helps.

Now that we have become long-timers, rather than full timers, we have downsized to a shorter, lighter rig but still have the same truck.

Safe Travels (or not)...

 

[geodog]

You can never have "too much truck".

I have less .money tied up in our Volvp VNL 610, Bed, and Smart4two than a well equipped F-450.

 

ShortyO

[rickeieio]

4 hours ago, geodog said:

You can never have "too much truck".

I have less .money tied up in our Volvp VNL 610, Bed, and Smart4two than a well equipped F-450.

 

ShortyO

Same here.  I gave $19k for the truck, put about $7k in the bed/air ride hitch, and have had perhaps another $20k in repairs and upgrades over 10 years.  Had I bought a nice used class 4 or 5 truck (F-450ish) at the same time, I would have paid about $40k-$50k, at least one set of tires, likely two, one set of brakes, and probably a tranny.  It would now be worth around $15k and the Volvo is still worth over $20k.  So I'm ahead by roughly $10-$15k at this point.

Yes, we carry a smart for day trips, but we often drive the Volvo for errands.  No big deal.  It's not much bigger than the F-350 it replaced.

We're not full timers, so when not on the road, my daily driver is an F-150.  Way cheaper and nicer to drive than a bigger truck.

So many choices.....

[GlennWest]

Everyone don't need an HDT. But also the bigger heavier truck is the safest truck, regrardlusly. But i believe from experience anything over 20k, go HDT. I did tow our Teton for a while with a 3500. I felt like an ant. I had to put air bags on dually dur to the high pin wieght. Bowed my springs backwards. Rode like a sled then. Literally hurt. My ole Freightshaker drives and rides sweet. And will stop our 21k Teton with no trailer brakes decently. I installed air over hydraulic on my Teton when I upgraded to disc brakes and can stop very fast. No one that has never towed with one of these truck just don't know how sweet a tow vechile they are.Now a 60" cab truck singled short makes a decent daily commute truck. It is just about same length as a crewcab long bed dually. And manuvers better also. 

[kstills]

Oof. 

Seems we getting a lot of perspective here. 

One appeal of the F350-450 variant is the ability to scout ahead when boondocking. Are the HDT variants able to do that successfully, or are you more at the mercy of a need for decent road surfaces? 

Leaning more towards a 4 season 5th wheel at this point with 'some' off road capability, so this does become an issue. Expect the max weight to be in the 17k range. 

I also believe you can never have too much truck, as long as it serves dual purposes. 

And what is this about wearing out the tranny on a F450? Are you saying a new truck towing a rig will chew up a transmission in 20-40k miles? Not much of a tow package if it does...

[GlennWest]

I'd skip 450 and go 550 if I went that route

[Tee Jay]

Lots of day cab log trucks on bad roads.  You need the proper tires to get a grip.  Real serious off road, the chip trucks are all wheel drive, as are many oilfield trucks.  All Class 8.  They are out there.

The odd thing is the greatest horse and torque tend to be in Class 3 and Class 8, and also the nicest interiors.  Many Class 4 and 5 derate the engine, or assume it is a city delivery truck and downsize the engine.

Personal opinion, the heaviest part of the tow controls.  Put a 16,000 tow at 3,000 pin on a 9.000 dually, it is almost a tie.  Go heavier, trailer takes over.  No big deal most days, but things can get real ugly real fast.  Electric brake wires are routed through the axle tubes.  Grit, vibration, and time short the wires out, so no brakes.  Electric over hydraulic has a delay before they kick in.  Air is immediate.

Long bed dually has been my daily for the last 9 years.  The HDT guys have a valid point in more truck, better turning, less money.  Just get it properly set up to start with.  Park further out and get your exercise, and avoid parking garages and drive thru's. Parking in So Cal can be a bear, and likely the East Coast as well.   The recurrent theme on these discussions seems to be to take it to the limit, and then some.  If you do that, look closely at the related issues.

[GlennWest]

Actually you can get a 60" cab HDT singled short and have basically a crew cab long bed dually. Just a tad longer, same width and better turning radius. 

[mptjelgin]

On 8/21/2020 at 4:24 PM, kstills said:

And what is this about wearing out the tranny on a F450? Are you saying a new truck towing a rig will chew up a transmission in 20-40k miles? Not much of a tow package if it does...

Absolutely not. The transmissions on the current F-350/450 is very robust and you have nothing to worry about.  Just as many of the HDT folks say that you have no idea what HDT's are like if you haven't driven one, I'd say the same for the latest crop of pickups.   The 2020 F-350 has 475 Hp and just 1050 pound-feet of torque. And the transmission is ten-speed.  The tow/haul mode and engine braking is extremely effective.  My current truck is one year older and has 450HP/935 pound-feet of torque and 6-speed transmission and handles my 15,000 pound fifth wheel effortlessly. 

And, my 5' tall wife is happy to drive it to the supermarket when we're set up.  That simply isn't going to happen with an HDT. 

[DJohns]

That simply isn't going to happen with an HDT. 

Tell that to all the women truck drivers out there or are they all 6 foot?

[mptjelgin]

17 minutes ago, DJohns said:

That simply isn't going to happen with an HDT. 

Tell that to all the women truck drivers out there or are they all 6 foot?

Not my point at all.  My wife isn't going to drive one. Simple as that. Do you understand now??

[GlennWest]

My wife is only 5'3 and see can drive the truck. She don't but can see and reach the pedal. Her knees are shot and she just can't get in it now.

Edited August 24, 2020 by GlennWest

[Consolenut]

On 8/19/2020 at 2:53 PM, kstills said:

Would you consider a fully setup F450 as a suitable tow vehicle for your rig? 

If its a Cab and chassis I would. Not the pickup. ITs derated to class 3 and GVW is anemic.

[Consolenut]

On 8/19/2020 at 8:57 PM, kstills said:

My issue is needing a get around vehicle if I go with a 5er. I don't think the HDT would be a very good 'drive to town' vehicle for the most part. 

What would you suggest would be the heaviest 5er to pull with a MDT? 

A bob tailed HDT is no longer and wider then a 3500 CCLB in most cases. Its just taller.