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I have been thinking and wanting to get an EV. I really like the Cybertruck for many reasons, but this is not relevant. I stay at campgrounds 365 days a year. I could plug it into the 110 outlet, but it would take forever to get to a 80% charge. One campground in over 5 years had two charging stations. Just trying to think ahead of the logistics that it would take to work. Thanks for your input, ideas or real life experience with this.

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You may have an issue trying to charge it in a campground.  If electricity is included in the daily rate it's a large unexpected load the campground owner didn't count on when he set the price.  And with many campgrounds having electrical service that strains to handle normal air conditioning loads there may not be excess capacity to charge a vehicle.

About 4 years ago I was staying in an RV park in Los Angeles on a monthly basis and a neighbor pulled in with a Nissan Leaf inside his utility trailer.  The next morning I found it plugged into the 50 amp outlet on my pedestal, which was between my trailer and his patio/parking space.  When I confronted my neighbor he asked why I was upset - after all, my 30 amp trailer wasn't using the 50 amp outlet.

I explained to him that as a monthly resident I paid for my electricity and he was stealing my power.  He apologiized and said he didn't realize each site was seperately metered  because the electric meters were on a panel some distance away.

The owner was also upset when he found the Leaf charging on my neighbor's pedestal as he hadn't figured that much electrical consumption into the weekly rate.

Edited by Lou Schneider

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WOW, what he did was WRONG!! I would never plug something of mine in someone else's pedestal with out asking. 

Edited by rynosback

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Too many people who don’t stay somewhere on a monthly basis are unaware that many/most parks meter the power for monthly residents.  I agree also that many campgrounds would not have the power capability now.  I’ve stayed in campgrounds that struggle in the summer, where my EMS has kicked off due to low voltage situation.

I’ve been keeping my converter turned off as much as possible - letting the solar panels charge the batteries and provide power to the 12V system, to save a little on my metered power.  But I’m still expecting a pretty big electric bill at the end of the month, because I’ve run the AC a fair amount.  I can’t imagine adding the power to charge a car.

I’ve never been crazy about the idea of an EV car, or at least in it’s current configuration.  It more or less just puts the power supplier out of sight somewhere else, rather than the local gas station (I know, that’s a simplification and there’s the whole question about what’s clean energy etc. - an entirely different conversation and I’m not going there).  It doesn’t necessarily save any money (depends on the cost of electricity and of gas, both vary and not the same amount).  

On the other hand, I love the idea of a hybrid and still miss the Prius I had.  To me that was a great idea - the car creating some of it’s own power.  Wish there was some way to make a vehicle that was externally energy independent - perhaps a mix of some sort of solar and braking/kinetic energy conversion in the future, along with some sort of super (lighter and higher energy storage) battery that has yet to be developed.  That’s a vehicle I’d really want.

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With a plug-in hybrid, you might be able to charge it up in your campsite, plugged into your RV and not the post.  i see that every once in a while, but if it gets common I suspect campground rules will change to address it and most likely ban charging.  

For a full EV, you would need to keep the map of charging stations ready for your trip planning.  I suspect it would limit where you could stay, since there is little point to driving half an hour or more one way to charge every few days.  We just happen to be at a campground just up the road from an outlet mall with a Tesla SuperCharger, but that is not our normal experience.  

Since plug-in hybrids and full EVs are getting more and more common, charging stations will also be more common as you travel, but it will be a while for campgrounds to add them.  An interesting fact is more EVs are now sold than stick shift cars and trucks. The world is changing.  

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Here's what I do: I have a 30 amp extension cord that I plug into the 30 amp plug on the post (the motorhome is plugged into the 50 amp).  I run the extension cord under the rig and plug it into my C-Max charger which stays on top of one of the front tires, out of the weather.  From there, I plug into the car.  We've had the car more than a year, no problem at any campground.

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6 hours ago, fpmtngal said:

Too many people who don’t stay somewhere on a monthly basis are unaware that many/most parks meter the power for monthly residents.  I agree also that many campgrounds would not have the power capability now.  I’ve stayed in campgrounds that struggle in the summer, where my EMS has kicked off due to low voltage situation.

I’ve been keeping my converter turned off as much as possible - letting the solar panels charge the batteries and provide power to the 12V system, to save a little on my metered power.  But I’m still expecting a pretty big electric bill at the end of the month, because I’ve run the AC a fair amount.  I can’t imagine adding the power to charge a car.

I’ve never been crazy about the idea of an EV car, or at least in it’s current configuration.  It more or less just puts the power supplier out of sight somewhere else, rather than the local gas station (I know, that’s a simplification and there’s the whole question about what’s clean energy etc. - an entirely different conversation and I’m not going there).  It doesn’t necessarily save any money (depends on the cost of electricity and of gas, both vary and not the same amount).  

On the other hand, I love the idea of a hybrid and still miss the Prius I had.  To me that was a great idea - the car creating some of it’s own power.  Wish there was some way to make a vehicle that was externally energy independent - perhaps a mix of some sort of solar and braking/kinetic energy conversion in the future, along with some sort of super (lighter and higher energy storage) battery that has yet to be developed.  That’s a vehicle I’d really want.

Technology is always going to get better. So if the thought is to wait for better technology, you would never buy anything as you would always be holding out for the newest thing. It is proven the EVs have a lower cost to run. For the most part electricity  is cheaper then gas. There is much less maintenance with an EV over a gas or diesel. As far as over all pollution that is another topic. My next car might be a hybrid because  of my charging dilemma.

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3 hours ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

Here's what I do: I have a 30 amp extension cord that I plug into the 30 amp plug on the post (the motorhome is plugged into the 50 amp).  I run the extension cord under the rig and plug it into my C-Max charger which stays on top of one of the front tires, out of the weather.  From there, I plug into the car.  We've had the car more than a year, no problem at any campground.

I thought about doing what your doing. Even to go a step further and wiring it through the rig. But even a 30amp source still would take a lot of time if you were low on charge to get to 80%. Would you want an Autoformer on it also to insure good voltage? 

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7 hours ago, Bill Joyce said:

 An interesting fact is more EVs are now sold than stick shift cars and trucks. The world is changing.  

Not surprised at all. At least here in the US. As very few vehicles are even offered in stick. I think Ram is the only one of the big three that offer a stick. 

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1 hour ago, rynosback said:

I thought about doing what your doing. Even to go a step further and wiring it through the rig. But even a 30amp source still would take a lot of time if you were low on charge to get to 80%. Would you want an Autoformer on it also to insure good voltage? 

My C-Max is a plugin hybrid.  I get about 20 miles per charge, then the car becomes a regular hybrid.  On a 110 charger it takes about 10 hours to get to full charge.  I think you are wanting to go with a full EV, so my experience is only marginally helpful to you.

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19 minutes ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

My C-Max is a plugin hybrid.  I get about 20 miles per charge, then the car becomes a regular hybrid.  On a 110 charger it takes about 10 hours to get to full charge.  I think you are wanting to go with a full EV, so my experience is only marginally helpful to you.

Yes I have been thinking of going full EV. I honestly am not sure that it can be done, but I thought I would start a conversation about it. I wanted to make sure that I was not overlooking a solution. I have not seen this topic come up before, so I thought I would start one up. I think we are heading to an EV world. 

Edited by rynosback

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Scott, What kind of EV do you travel with? On edit: Scott you answered since I started my long post. I had to do something for SWMBO and missed your later post explaining the Ford CMax. They discontinued them? Sorry I never looked into hybrids.)

Guys, we can control scrubbing even a coal fired power plant exhaust much better than the millions of tailpipes. I used to do diesels and mine were tuned just enough to equalize/level the injector loads from the pump output. This was to maximize power without creating clouds of black smoke. Even then I could totally floor it and coal roll and discourage a tailgater when they were really bad, especially texters on my left rear corner blind spot. My whole time owning diesels I'd done that maybe three or four times.

I still love Ram trucks but can't store one in my two car garage. And as a city dweller now in a subdivision do not need one. We still have the Subaru Baja parked out front and I am about to lower the price to liquidate it. I have a trailer hitch on the Forester and can rent a trailer for anything I'd need for this tiny house.

I am not a greenie with my Tesla. But it always seems the folks who don't have/like/understand/ BEVs bring up pollution by immediately using the old tired 2010 anti Tesla crap we all know better today. I don't believe I've ever touted clean air as a primary advantage. 

I wanted to own a BEV ever since we skied Zermatt Switzerland several times in 1994 and 1995. Since 1978 no ICE (Internal Combustion Engines) age vehicles were allowed. You have to park below and take the cog railroad up back in the 90s. You still can't drive up because they want no pollution there. It is the village just below the Matterhorn that we skied around and down into Italy. I'd seen golf carts but never the little BEV pickups and buses that constantly circled the town transporting us to and from the lifts, apres ski places etc. Totally free of extra charge when we were there:

( if you let the next video come up automatically the following video shows the highest 3S cableway in the world there we rode many times to the top slopes. One ski run is 7 kilometers from the trail head down to Cervinia Italy, with an Irish pub in the middle (yes we drank there) and a really tall gondola back up to Switzerland. So that is where my personal fascination with BEVs started.

Then in 2003 when I heard of Tesla I was really excited BEVs were coming to the US.. It's a shame we can only do windshield tours as the folks outside feel no need of masks so we are essentially quarantined. Personal choice, YMMV.

Back to the main topic. Charging is really not a big deal. When we got our first diesel truck in 1997 we had to drive a ways as there were few diesel pumps in town, and those few had prices higher than a cat's back. So we had to drive a bit too - at first.

Tesla chargers are two kinds today, Destination chargers, and Superchargers. Destination chargers are at places you most likely will spend several hours at. Therefore they are less powerful because they can charge for several hours. For the entry fee to zoos and Disney parks and destinations and similar, you bet we would plan a whole day there. So we don't need a Supercharger there.

Superchargers are 120kW and will give a full charge in under an hour.  If you want look at Tesla charger maps. The other maps on Plugin and others are as little as 6.6-7 kW chargers. Example, look at the kW! https://www.plugshare.com/location/123713

Here is a non Tesla EV website with lots more info. https://normalnow.com/?utm_source=bing&utm_campaign=Unbranded_Flight2_49States&utm_medium=search&utm_term=na&utm_content=ad&msclkid=622b8809a8971fa1e4d2d72ba82cb721&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=EA_Cycle 1_Flight 3_US49_NonBrand_BMM&utm_term=%2Belectric %2Bvehicle %2Bcharging&utm_content=EA_Cycle 1_Flight 3_US49_Nonbrand_BMM_Car Charger&gclid=CL-ewb_J8-oCFZmrxQIdk2UCoQ&gclsrc=ds

Here is a very comprehensive charging map for Tesla and some others. You need to zoom in and find the charging kW, as well as what kind of plugs. My Model Y came with a charging cable and an adapter for non Tesla stations. I bought the

https://www.plugshare.com/EV-Charging-Networks-North-America.html?utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Web - EN - Search&msclkid=ab725ef6d2851c4a158e01d4d7270f69&utm_term=tesla supercharger&utm_content=Tesla Charging Stations#tesla

This is for apartment dwellers in a city: https://electrek.co/2018/08/13/tesla-expands-charging-infrastructure-new-york-urban-supercharger/

I'll stick to Tesla Super and destination chargers on the road and get a full charge in less than an hour. My car has a range of 316 miles per charge. To prolong the life opf the battery pack I charge at home to 284 miles as it comes default. For a trip I top that off.

So the arguments become that it pollutes more to make a Tesla than ICE cars, coming from ICE drivers. Horse manure! If you disagree please cite a source.

Excerpt:

"Another argument is that, because your local power station may run on coal, the pollution is just being shifted from the tailpipe to the smoke stack. This is equally fallacious.

This is because a power station is much more efficient than a small ICE in a car in converting fuel to any end product. The electric motors in an EV are 3 times as efficient as an ICE in converting energy to forward movement. The emissions from a power station are more controllable than those from thousands of private cars, and are normally emitted outside the city, not in city streets."

Source: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/12/is-it-true-that-a-tesla-creates-more-pollution-than-a-conventional-car/

Go to this link for US energy sources from 1776 to current. It's at the bottom of the page under the energy chart showing the percentage of renewable energy used today.  https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/renewable-sources/

That information is from The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) that collects, analyzes, and disseminates independent and impartial energy information to promote sound policy making, efficient markets, and public understanding of energy and its interaction with the economy and the environment.

My charger at home plugs into a NEMA 14-50 outlet and charges at 29/30 miles per hour of charging. https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters If I splurged on the Tesla walll charger I'd get 44 miles per hour of charging. But since I don't put many miles on my car I just did the much cheaper 14-50r receptacle..

Edited by RV_

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Since the discussion is really about full EVs I'm pretty much a bystander to the discussion.  I will just mention that the thing that first got our attention was that the Ford Hybrids can all be towed four down.  They had some battery draining issues at one point, but they seem to have solved the issue by the time our 2017 was built.  We just put it in neutral and it is ready to go.

I think it was a real shame that they stopped making the C-Max car.  We really like ours and would buy it again.

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After hearing about it only from you I was impressed with it, the price, and your satisfaction. My Tesla Mod Y can't be towed. AWD two motor. Charging using charging stations is no worse than going for diesel. Back in the day it was hard to find white gas, remember?

 

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2 hours ago, RV_ said:

discourage a tailgater when they were really bad, especially texters on my left rear corner blind spot

Here's how i was taught to avoid having a blind spot in a car. Scoot far left until you can press your cheek to the side window then set your mirror out until you can barely see your own car. Then scoot into the middle of your car where your right cheek would be over a floor shift if you had one and do the same for the right window. Any car approaching from behind will move into your side mirror just as it disappears from your rear view mirror then will appear in your own side vision just as it disappears from your side mirror. Try it; it works. Click and Clack taught me that on their radio program.

Linda

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4 hours ago, RV_ said:

Scott, What kind of EV do you travel with? On edit: Scott you answered since I started my long post. I had to do something for SWMBO and missed your later post explaining the Ford CMax. They discontinued them? Sorry I never looked into hybrids.)

Guys, we can control scrubbing even a coal fired power plant exhaust much better than the millions of tailpipes. I used to do diesels and mine were tuned just enough to equalize/level the injector loads from the pump output. This was to maximize power without creating clouds of black smoke. Even then I could totally floor it and coal roll and discourage a tailgater when they were really bad, especially texters on my left rear corner blind spot. My whole time owning diesels I'd done that maybe three or four times.

I still love Ram trucks but can't store one in my two car garage. And as a city dweller now in a subdivision do not need one. We still have the Subaru Baja parked out front and I am about to lower the price to liquidate it. I have a trailer hitch on the Forester and can rent a trailer for anything I'd need for this tiny house.

I am not a greenie with my Tesla. But it always seems the folks who don't have/like/understand/ BEVs bring up pollution by immediately using the old tired 2010 anti Tesla crap we all know better today. I don't believe I've ever touted clean air as a primary advantage. 

I wanted to own a BEV ever since we skied Zermatt Switzerland several times in 1994 and 1995. Since 1978 no ICE (Internal Combustion Engines) age vehicles were allowed. You have to park below and take the cog railroad up back in the 90s. You still can't drive up because they want no pollution there. It is the village just below the Matterhorn that we skied around and down into Italy. I'd seen golf carts but never the little BEV pickups and buses that constantly circled the town transporting us to and from the lifts, apres ski places etc. Totally free of extra charge when we were there:

( if you let the next video come up automatically the following video shows the highest 3S cableway in the world there we rode many times to the top slopes. One ski run is 7 kilometers from the trail head down to Cervinia Italy, with an Irish pub in the middle (yes we drank there) and a really tall gondola back up to Switzerland. So that is where my personal fascination with BEVs started.

Then in 2003 when I heard of Tesla I was really excited BEVs were coming to the US.. It's a shame we can only do windshield tours as the folks outside feel no need of masks so we are essentially quarantined. Personal choice, YMMV.

Back to the main topic. Charging is really not a big deal. When we got our first diesel truck in 1997 we had to drive a ways as there were few diesel pumps in town, and those few had prices higher than a cat's back. So we had to drive a bit too - at first.

Tesla chargers are two kinds today, Destination chargers, and Superchargers. Destination chargers are at places you most likely will spend several hours at. Therefore they are less powerful because they can charge for several hours. For the entry fee to zoos and Disney parks and destinations and similar, you bet we would plan a whole day there. So we don't need a Supercharger there.

Superchargers are 120kW and will give a full charge in under an hour.  If you want look at Tesla charger maps. The other maps on Plugin and others are as little as 6.6-7 kW chargers. Example, look at the kW! https://www.plugshare.com/location/123713

Here is a non Tesla EV website with lots more info. https://normalnow.com/?utm_source=bing&utm_campaign=Unbranded_Flight2_49States&utm_medium=search&utm_term=na&utm_content=ad&msclkid=622b8809a8971fa1e4d2d72ba82cb721&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=EA_Cycle 1_Flight 3_US49_NonBrand_BMM&utm_term=%2Belectric %2Bvehicle %2Bcharging&utm_content=EA_Cycle 1_Flight 3_US49_Nonbrand_BMM_Car Charger&gclid=CL-ewb_J8-oCFZmrxQIdk2UCoQ&gclsrc=ds

Here is a very comprehensive charging map for Tesla and some others. You need to zoom in and find the charging kW, as well as what kind of plugs. My Model Y came with a charging cable and an adapter for non Tesla stations. I bought the

https://www.plugshare.com/EV-Charging-Networks-North-America.html?utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Web - EN - Search&msclkid=ab725ef6d2851c4a158e01d4d7270f69&utm_term=tesla supercharger&utm_content=Tesla Charging Stations#tesla

This is for apartment dwellers in a city: https://electrek.co/2018/08/13/tesla-expands-charging-infrastructure-new-york-urban-supercharger/

I'll stick to Tesla Super and destination chargers on the road and get a full charge in less than an hour. My car has a range of 316 miles per charge. To prolong the life opf the battery pack I charge at home to 284 miles as it comes default. For a trip I top that off.

So the arguments become that it pollutes more to make a Tesla than ICE cars, coming from ICE drivers. Horse manure! If you disagree please cite a source.

Excerpt:

"Another argument is that, because your local power station may run on coal, the pollution is just being shifted from the tailpipe to the smoke stack. This is equally fallacious.

This is because a power station is much more efficient than a small ICE in a car in converting fuel to any end product. The electric motors in an EV are 3 times as efficient as an ICE in converting energy to forward movement. The emissions from a power station are more controllable than those from thousands of private cars, and are normally emitted outside the city, not in city streets."

Source: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/12/is-it-true-that-a-tesla-creates-more-pollution-than-a-conventional-car/

Go to this link for US energy sources from 1776 to current. It's at the bottom of the page under the energy chart showing the percentage of renewable energy used today.  https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/renewable-sources/

That information is from The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) that collects, analyzes, and disseminates independent and impartial energy information to promote sound policy making, efficient markets, and public understanding of energy and its interaction with the economy and the environment.

My charger at home plugs into a NEMA 14-50 outlet and charges at 29/30 miles per hour of charging. https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters If I splurged on the Tesla walll charger I'd get 44 miles per hour of charging. But since I don't put many miles on my car I just did the much cheaper 14-50r receptacle..

I knew that you would chime in. It looks like at this time that the logistics for full timing  and staying in campgrounds is going to be troublesome at this point in time. On a side note, my best friend just picked up a model Y a couple of weeks ago. 
 

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20 hours ago, GR "Scott" Cundiff said:

Here's what I do: I have a 30 amp extension cord that I plug into the 30 amp plug on the post (the motorhome is plugged into the 50 amp).  I run the extension cord under the rig and plug it into my C-Max charger which stays on top of one of the front tires, out of the weather.  From there, I plug into the car.  We've had the car more than a year, no problem at any campground.

Lately we have been running into campgrounds with signs that say you can only plug one thing into the power pedestal.  I suspect that will be more common over time.

We borrowed our friend's 2018 C-Max plug-in hybrid when our old car was in the shop and it was nice to experience it before we got our hybrid.  I wish our friend had told us the 110 cord was under the door, since we would have charged up in our campsite from the now unused basement freezer plug.  The Escape plug-in was $5K more and only came in FWD, both shop stoppers for us.  

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39 minutes ago, Bill Joyce said:

Lately we have been running into campgrounds with signs that say you can only plug one thing into the power pedestal.  I suspect that will be more common over time.

We borrowed our friend's 2018 C-Max plug-in hybrid when our old car was in the shop and it was nice to experience it before we got our hybrid.  I wish our friend had told us the 110 cord was under the door, since we would have charged up in our campsite from the now unused basement freezer plug.  The Escape plug-in was $5K more and only came in FWD, both shop stoppers for us.  

I haven't seen that, but will be on the lookout for it.  During the winter we actually ran our 30 amp extension cord in through a window and ran a tower space heater off of it.  I liked not having to tie up a circuit in the rig for the space heater.  Over the winter I just charged the C-Max off of a decent extension cord.  Once it started to heat up I didn't need the space heater and switched over to charging the car using the big extension cord.  Also, I only charge overnight when it is cooler.  From what I understand it is better for the big batteries.

Edited by GR "Scott" Cundiff

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20 hours ago, rynosback said:

. It is proven the EVs have a lower cost to run. For the most part electricity  is cheaper then gas. 

Right.  Electric cars are not charged 18.4 cents a gallon Federal and 41 to 75 cents a gallon State taxes for their fuel.  They get a free ride on the roads these taxes build and maintain.

Other maintenance costs are deferred until their battery packs need replacing.

Edited by Lou Schneider

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1 hour ago, Lou Schneider said:

Electric cars are not charged 18.4 cents a gallon Federal and 41 to 75 cents a gallon State taxes for their fuel.  They get a free ride on the roads these taxes build and maintain.

Other maintenance costs are deferred until their battery packs need replacing.

I'm not sure that's completely true.  I think I've read where some States are charging road use fees for EV's, in some cases higher than it would be for a comparable gasoline model.  I suppose someday we might all be paying road use fees based on how many miles we travel and our vehicle weight.  Until then, we'll have a hodgepodge system of fees.

EV's have tires, 12 volt battery, brakes, axles, bearings, light bulbs, air filters, and other wear items.  They don't have a gasoline engine, but they are not totally maintenance free.

On edit, I found this website article.  https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Consumer-Reports-EV-Fee-analysis.pdf

Edited by durangodon

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8 minutes ago, durangodon said:

I'm not sure that's completely true.  I think I've read where some States are charging road use fees for EV's, in some cases higher than it would be for a comparable gasoline model.  I suppose someday we might all be paying road use fees based on how many miles we travel and our vehicle weight.  Until then, we'll have a hodgepodge system of fees.

EV's have tires, 12 volt battery, brakes, axles, bearings, light bulbs, air filters, and other wear items.  They don't have a gasoline engine, but they are not totally maintenance free.

I never said that they are maintenance free. You have to replace tires, brakes (should last longer as you regenerative brakes), wiper blades, cabin air filter. Where as a gas car you need to maintain all of that plus air filter, engine oil, belts & hoses, trans fluid, antifreeze and emission components and do testing on it. Lights are about a wash as a lot of newer cars are using LED lights. EVs more so then it’s counter part. 

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I think a good way instead of a gas tax to maintain the roads, how about a tire tax? If you change your tires a lot, that means that you are driving a lot. They might have to have prorated exceptions for blowouts or non repairable tires. It would be a percentage as bigger and heavier vehicles tires are more expensive. This would level the playing field. 

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2 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

Right.  Electric cars are not charged 18.4 cents a gallon Federal and 41 to 75 cents a gallon State taxes for their fuel.  They get a free ride on the roads these taxes build and maintain.

Other maintenance costs are deferred until their battery packs need replacing.

Plus some are even getting tax credits for buying one. 

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5 hours ago, Bill Joyce said:

Lately we have been running into campgrounds with signs that say you can only plug one thing into the power pedestal.  I suspect that will be more common over time.

We borrowed our friend's 2018 C-Max plug-in hybrid when our old car was in the shop and it was nice to experience it before we got our hybrid.  I wish our friend had told us the 110 cord was under the door, since we would have charged up in our campsite from the now unused basement freezer plug.  The Escape plug-in was $5K more and only came in FWD, both shop stoppers for us.  

Interesting. If that was the case I would only offer one 50 amp connection in the box. If you have a 30 amp rig, your would need to step down. Much easier to do that instead of trying to enforce a rule. 

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On edit: I erased my middle and last name on my receipt, and my Vehicle ID # only in the tax receipts and registration below..

Lou,

I disagree. Here are my receipts from registering my Tesla Model Y in Colorado. With all the road taxes. Some states are causing EV owners to pay double what gas and diesel owners pay annually in road taxes, trying to stop the inevitable move away from fossil fuels.

EVTO4fMl.jpg

i3ERHzHl.jpg

 

As well:

"The oil industry subsidies have a long history in the United States. As early as World War I, the government stimulated oil and gas production in order to ensure a domestic supply.

In 1995, Congress established the Deep Water Royalty Relief Act.10 It allowed oil companies to drill on federal property without paying royalties. This encouraged the expensive form of extraction since oil was only $18 a barrel. The Treasury Department reported that the federal government has missed $50 billion in foregone revenue over the program's lifetime. It argued that this may no longer be needed now that deepwater extraction has become profitable.

Here is a summary of the 2011 oil industry subsidies compiled by Taxpayers for Common Sense in its report, "Subsidy Gusher."11

  • Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit - $31 billion.
  • Intangible Drilling Costs - $8.9 billion.
  • Oil and Gas Royalty Relief - $6.9 billion.
  • Percentage Depletion Allowance - $4.327 billion.
  • Refinery Equipment Deductions - $2.3 billion.
  • Geological and Geophysical Costs Tax Credit - $698 million.
  • Natural Gas Distribution Lines - $500 million.
  • Ultradeepwater and Unconventional Natural Gas and other Petroleum Resources R&D - $230 million.
  • Passive Loss Exemption - $105 million.
  • Unconventional Fossil Technology Program - $100 million.
  • Other subsidies - $161 million.

Greenpeace argues that the oil industry subsidies should also include the following activities:

  • The Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
  • Defense spending that involves military action in oil-rich countries in the Persian Gulf.
  • The construction of the U.S. federal highway system which encourages reliance on gas-driven cars.

The BEA argues that these federal government activities were primarily done to protect national security and not promote specific activities within the oil industry. Even though the intent was not to directly subsidize it, they may have benefited the industry indirectly.

The Bottom Line

Any financial benefit, whether cash or tax cuts, given by the government to businesses or government organizations is considered a subsidy. Subsidies are given to help companies reduce their costs of doing business. In doing so, the government helps boost certain sectoral activities for the economy.

The U.S. government grants subsidies to the following industries:

  • Oil.
  • Agriculture.
  • Housing.
  • U.S. farm exports.
  • Automobile market.
  • Healthcare through Obamacare subsidies.

The ethanol industry used to be subsidized until 2012 through corn subsidies.

Some economists though are opposed to government subsidies. They believe these end up doing more harm than good in the long run."

Source with additional info on ethanol subsidies:

https://www.thebalance.com/government-subsidies-definition-farm-oil-export-etc-3305788#:~:text= Government Subsidies (Farm%2C Oil%2C Export%2C Etc) ,at the wholesale company's gas pumps. More

Edited by RV_

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